If there's one thing I take pride of in my forum posting history, it's convincing David Nakayama that at least a muscular skin texture for women would be a good thing 
The last I heard from him, he said it was something they were willing to look into, but never gave a definitive time line, which causes me to guess a couple of years, at least.
That said, I'm still very much in favour of this and I don't oppose suggesting it. In fact, I have a couple of new "tweaked" pics to share just for the occasion:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If there's one thing I take pride of in my forum posting history, it's convincing David Nakayama that at least a muscular skin texture for women would be a good thing
The last I heard from him, he said it was something they were willing to look into, but never gave a definitive time line, which causes me to guess a couple of years, at least.That said, I'm still very much in favour of this and I don't oppose suggesting it. In fact, I have a couple of new "tweaked" pics to share just for the occasion: and |
Those are AWESOME! Since we can tweak the size of our shoulders, hips, and chests, these textures make it perfect for creating a true Warrior Woman.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I think having the option to chose your skin type is a great idea. First having muscular type is fine, but this could also lead to other skin types such as reptile, zombie, or tiger stripes, allowing for better inhuman toons.
/Signed
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I think this is the problem with the CC. It only has a skin color option where we would also need a skin "type" option as well where everything else would simply layer on top.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
I think having the option to chose your skin type is a great idea. First having muscular type is fine, but this could also lead to other skin types such as reptile, zombie, or tiger stripes, allowing for better inhuman toons.
/Signed |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I would love a 'Skin Type' option too. And I have wanted a muscular texture for women for years. My blue skinned She-Hulk type just doesn't look right without it.
Although I doubt we'll ever see a new skelton in this game (due to the development time required) new skin tones and textures are definitely something I would like to see added.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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^ /Signed
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Originally Posted by Dante
I would love a 'Skin Type' option too. And I have wanted a muscular texture for women for years. My blue skinned She-Hulk type just doesn't look right without it.
Although I doubt we'll ever see a new skelton in this game (due to the development time required) new skin tones and textures are definitely something I would like to see added. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Is there some secret to doing that? Every time I try to swap one model texture for another it gets screwy.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If there's one thing I take pride of in my forum posting history, it's convincing David Nakayama that at least a muscular skin texture for women would be a good thing
The last I heard from him, he said it was something they were willing to look into, but never gave a definitive time line, which causes me to guess a couple of years, at least.That said, I'm still very much in favour of this and I don't oppose suggesting it. In fact, I have a couple of new "tweaked" pics to share just for the occasion: and |
Sooo...a desire for muscular women equals a desire for a six pack?
the rest seems attainable moving the physique slider around.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'll support women with muscles till the day I die.
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really, yes, or more accurately, its desire for better definition. given the rating, there is only so much of the character's torso we can show, so the pectoral definition must remain a tantalizing mystery . but the rest of what can be done, and is done on male tights muscular, is defined abs, more defined latisimus dorsi and trapesius and more defined shoulder caps(the 3m muscles that make up the deltoids). now this is just for upper body, a neccessity since the two are seperated, but more defined quads and calves would work for me as well.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Sooo...a desire for muscular women equals a desire for a six pack?
the rest seems attainable moving the physique slider around. |
again, there is some discussion about how muscular, many competitive female bodybuilders who use a lot of "suppliments" can take on a huge, bulked up look, it fits the comic genre with mutants and super-soldier serums but some feel it would be disturbing. I am not touching that because last time it turned into a extended argument that wasted space, what i will say is that there are also female bodybuilders who look quite typically feminine but still are significantly muscular, and yeah, the very defined abs are one of the key things that hold together the look.
one discussion that has grown on me is having alternate arms, similar to robotic arms that are more defined and muscular than the sliders support. in addition to maybe some monstrous arm options too, i like this idea as a way to add the option that could be bolted on to the "defined" female body while giving those who want massive biceps and triceps the option to have them, while letting those with aesthetic concerns the ability to opt out.
if we get these, we do need a "second layer" selection of midriff baring tops for females, because one thing i have found irl as well as in comics, but if a person has diamond cut abs..they want to show them off.
it should me noted that while the sliders are nice, on females they don't work very well, they tend to make females chunky looking rather than defined looking. usually a person who is cut is actually quite lean, outside of their muscles which are more visible because of that leanness, sliders tend to inflate the whole character. to really show muscular definition they would very likely have to add more polygons for the different muscle groups, and that would lead to a significant performance hit, so i dont see sliders really helping much.
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Well, I'm not against the suggestion. Though super strong females in comics, don't tend to have that same look as She-Hulk does in that picture (even She-Hulk can lose those definitions depending on the artist).|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
really, yes, or more accurately, its desire for better definition. given the rating, there is only so much of the character's torso we can show, so the pectoral definition must remain a tantalizing mystery . but the rest of what can be done, and is done on male tights muscular, is defined abs, more defined latisimus dorsi and trapesius and more defined shoulder caps(the 3m muscles that make up the deltoids). now this is just for upper body, a neccessity since the two are seperated, but more defined quads and calves would work for me as well.
again, there is some discussion about how muscular, many competitive female bodybuilders who use a lot of "suppliments" can take on a huge, bulked up look, it fits the comic genre with mutants and super-soldier serums but some feel it would be disturbing. I am not touching that because last time it turned into a extended argument that wasted space, what i will say is that there are also female bodybuilders who look quite typically feminine but still are significantly muscular, and yeah, the very defined abs are one of the key things that hold together the look. one discussion that has grown on me is having alternate arms, similar to robotic arms that are more defined and muscular than the sliders support. in addition to maybe some monstrous arm options too, i like this idea as a way to add the option that could be bolted on to the "defined" female body while giving those who want massive biceps and triceps the option to have them, while letting those with aesthetic concerns the ability to opt out. if we get these, we do need a "second layer" selection of midriff baring tops for females, because one thing i have found irl as well as in comics, but if a person has diamond cut abs..they want to show them off. it should me noted that while the sliders are nice, on females they don't work very well, they tend to make females chunky looking rather than defined looking. usually a person who is cut is actually quite lean, outside of their muscles which are more visible because of that leanness, sliders tend to inflate the whole character. to really show muscular definition they would very likely have to add more polygons for the different muscle groups, and that would lead to a significant performance hit, so i dont see sliders really helping much. |
So, I wouldn't apply the real world logic that "This is how super strong superhero females should look" because that forgets the whole thing of this being a comic book world.
But again, not against the idea. Though the two images Sam showed looked more like something you'd see in a D&D fantasy setting, rather than a superhero setting.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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oh i get your point, few sane comic artists draw characters that detailed in every frame, it woudl take them forever to do a page, but the general aesthetic idea of what a powerful woman looks like does, nonetheless, involve definition similar to that, and since video games can render that sort of detail,so really its overcoming a limitation.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, I'm not against the suggestion. Though super strong females in comics, don't tend to have that same look as She-Hulk does in that picture (even She-Hulk can lose those definitions depending on the artist).
So, I wouldn't apply the real world logic that "This is how super strong superhero females should look" because that forgets the whole thing of this being a comic book world. But again, not against the idea. Though the two images Sam showed looked more like something you'd see in a D&D fantasy setting, rather than a superhero setting. |
also, while comics and especially manga are rife with examples of small, skinny and otherwise unassuming women doing immense feats of strength, we are asking for an option to increase verisimilitude, some stuff is flat out fantastical, we cant make a real world approximation of magic or energy blast, but we do have bodybuilders, and mma fighter, and such, so an option to approximate them in this game, in the same manner we can with males now with the tights muscular option, would be something some of us would like.
as for sams examples..well, yeah he used fantasy looking characters, if he had done it with a machine gun and camos for a woman that looks like rachel mclish in iron eagles 3 or a pro wrestling looking getup like chyna from the wwe, it would have meant no mroe or less. muscular women do exist in comics(and lets be honest, coh really draws from the broader nerdosphere, not just comics anymore), and really what sam used is irrelevant.
oh and just sayin, conan the barbarian ran from oct 1970 to december 1993, ignoring the other jungle or fantasy comics out there with similar female designs, id say that gets them seniority in the comics genre.
The definition would solve a lot of the problems. However with the current engine and sliders there is simply no way to make a female character appear to have thick arms and shoulders. They simply look frail compared to the rest of the body unless covered with armor.
I've said it before and will again. We need a 4th body type, Huge Female. It would be just like Huge is to male. Bulkier but muscular.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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I said superhero genre, not comics genre. If it was comics genre, I'd be asking for a lot more manga style pieces, and really in that category, anything can go, as they have comics of everything.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
oh i get your point, few sane comic artists draw characters that detailed in every frame, it woudl take them forever to do a page, but the general aesthetic idea of what a powerful woman looks like does, nonetheless, involve definition similar to that, and since video games can render that sort of detail,so really its overcoming a limitation.
also, while comics and especially manga are rife with examples of small, skinny and otherwise unassuming women doing immense feats of strength, we are asking for an option to increase verisimilitude, some stuff is flat out fantastical, we cant make a real world approximation of magic or energy blast, but we do have bodybuilders, and mma fighter, and such, so an option to approximate them in this game, in the same manner we can with males now with the tights muscular option, would be something some of us would like. as for sams examples..well, yeah he used fantasy looking characters, if he had done it with a machine gun and camos for a woman that looks like rachel mclish in iron eagles 3 or a pro wrestling looking getup like chyna from the wwe, it would have meant no mroe or less. muscular women do exist in comics(and lets be honest, coh really draws from the broader nerdosphere, not just comics anymore), and really what sam used is irrelevant. oh and just sayin, conan the barbarian ran from oct 1970 to december 1993, ignoring the other jungle or fantasy comics out there with similar female designs, id say that gets them seniority in the comics genre. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
WARNING: RANT AHEAD
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I'm not sure the genre argument can be brought up here. The only thing that seems to truly define the concept of 'super hero' is that they're usually set in a modern or near modern time setting. After that, it seems it's all free game.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I said superhero genre, not comics genre. If it was comics genre, I'd be asking for a lot more manga style pieces, and really in that category, anything can go, as they have comics of everything.
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I mean, it's even broken in-game already. Sure Nemesis fills the Niche of the 'immortal-chess master-genius-super villain', but making him a steampunk seemed pretty arbitrary. Using older look soldier uniforms, sure, but an absolute refusal to use anything not steam-powered (Like how they have NO quantum gunners and only contract Void Hunters) that's magically superior to conventional tech and is still able to produce force fields, jet engines, portal tech, etc. etc.? Now you're just BSing me, original devs. (And I don't mean broadsword. Though secretly, I suspect Nemesis of cheating and only using steampunk aesthetics. After all, Nuclear reactors technically work on steam.)
but you know what? In the Super Hero comic book genre, no one bats an eye at that sort of thing, this is because the Super hero genre is extremely diverse and dynamic, and always adapting and being inspired by different genres.
Sci-fi and fantasy being the major ones, but even then you get shades of grey within genre. (And hey! what do you know? Praetoria is kind of a Shades of Grey of the Genre! I mean it's a bright, cyber-punk-dystopia!)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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ok, azure gave most of my answer, but yeah, i did conflate the terms, my mistake there. I am kind of an anomalous coh player in that i'm not overly focused on the "super" aspect of the game so much as the heroic elements. you figure, the term hero was used by cultures to describe exemplary individuals long before superheroes were officially discussed. Hercules was a hero, so was finn mac cool, king arthur, krishna and susano o mikoto, all of whom were the bases of some of humanities self defining narratives. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I said superhero genre, not comics genre. If it was comics genre, I'd be asking for a lot more manga style pieces, and really in that category, anything can go, as they have comics of everything.
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I guess one reason your mentioning of fantasy bugs me is because it implied a tired argument that by integrating elements that are perceived as part of fantasy, coh is becoming city of "enter competitor fantasy mmo here" whereas i see the flexibility of the game genre, that we can fight ultratech crey, magical circles of thorns and modernistic knives of artemis and not have it chafe the genre, as one of coh's most desirable qualities. now you didnt specifically make that argument, but your point, such as it was, logically flowed right into that limiting and narrow minded criticism that people trotted out against cimorea, dual blades, and other things that made coh a richer game. its a harmful mindset really that can only strangle the game's creativity.
i still maintain that making female heroes with more defined musculature is entirely in theme with the super-heroic comic genre, and that simplay as one or two tops and bottoms options, would not be enough to really affect anyone's game negatively. and that trying to dsimiss sams examples by saying they are "fantasy" themed is a distraction from the central argument.
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My point on Sam's examples, was that they just seemed fantasy based. That was all. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
ok, azure gave most of my answer, but yeah, i did conflate the terms, my mistake there. I am kind of an anomalous coh player in that i'm not overly focused on the "super" aspect of the game so much as the heroic elements. you figure, the term hero was used by cultures to describe exemplary individuals long before superheroes were officially discussed. Hercules was a hero, so was finn mac cool, king arthur, krishna and susano o mikoto, all of whom were the bases of some of humanities self defining narratives.
I guess one reason your mentioning of fantasy bugs me is because it implied a tired argument that by integrating elements that are perceived as part of fantasy, coh is becoming city of "enter competitor fantasy mmo here" whereas i see the flexibility of the game genre, that we can fight ultratech crey, magical circles of thorns and modernistic knives of artemis and not have it chafe the genre, as one of coh's most desirable qualities. now you didnt specifically make that argument, but your point, such as it was, logically flowed right into that limiting and narrow minded criticism that people trotted out against cimorea, dual blades, and other things that made coh a richer game. its a harmful mindset really that can only strangle the game's creativity. i still maintain that making female heroes with more defined musculature is entirely in theme with the super-heroic comic genre, and that simplay as one or two tops and bottoms options, would not be enough to really affect anyone's game negatively. and that trying to dsimiss sams examples by saying they are "fantasy" themed is a distraction from the central argument. |
He shows those, and I see "I want City of Medevil Fantasy" as the basis for the suggestion.Why? Because in superhero comics, which is what the CoH site's own tag used to call it, you really don't see these detailed muscle definitions, even in the super strong characters.
And using "realism" as another comment for it, personally drives me in the direction of, don't want.
But that's me finding it odd that people come to a game based around superhero comics, and then say "it's not realistic" But like I said, I'm not against it. They do it, so be it.
As for the rant about Steampunk Nemesis. He looked more along the lines of CoH's version of a toy making villain to me.
I've also said in other posts, I want to see more villains in tights and looking the part of costumed villain and less "We're mercs!" or "We're magicy and demony!" enemies.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I thought that (toy maker villain) was Clockwork King? Though I kind of see what you mean. His soldiers look like tin Soldiers, and he started out as a toy maker. But then there's also Praetoria, as I mentioned. Sure, the 'evil alternate universe' is a staple in super hero comic books, but going as deep as we have with it, it hardly fits that anymore, and now it's a Bright and Shiny, Cyberpunk, Dystopia.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
As for the rant about Steampunk Nemesis. He looked more along the lines of CoH's version of a toy making villain to me.
I've also said in other posts, I want to see more villains in tights and looking the part of costumed villain and less "We're mercs!" or "We're magicy and demony!" enemies. |
And about the only problem is that tights tend to be reserved for the elite in most comic books, if I recall. The Arch-villains at the heads of their organizations. Generally, in superhero comic books, as I recall, the tighter the guy or girl's outfit, the higher up they were.
Though I do see the point there too. I mean, besides Longbow, it might be nice to see the Outcasts get updated and maybe have a new leader take charge after the Hollows arcs (my vote for someone who uses electricity and stone in some forms as a contrast to Frostfire) and maybe we end up seeing some of the higher ups start donning tights, either as they, themselves dreamed of being a hero (or a truly great villain than a lackey) and have turned themselves into a warped parody of their own dreams.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I just wish we could bulk up the arms WITHOUT ending up with stupidly huge hips. Seperate the sliders, or something.
I mean, a fair few of my female characters are not pansies. Vix, my Empath/Psi defender, will still happily punch the lights out of people and, being what she is, she's tough enough to do so. However, I can't make her look anything OTHER than size 0 or fashion model style without becoming some sort of freaking abomination. Its like your forbidden from making anything other than pixel perfect women. And sorry but, superhero genre or not, thats just a load of bull.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Move the physique slider up and move the waist slider up.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I just wish we could bulk up the arms WITHOUT ending up with stupidly huge hips. Seperate the sliders, or something.
I mean, a fair few of my female characters are not pansies. Vix, my Empath/Psi defender, will still happily punch the lights out of people and, being what she is, she's tough enough to do so. However, I can't make her look anything OTHER than size 0 or fashion model style without becoming some sort of freaking abomination. Its like your forbidden from making anything other than pixel perfect women. And sorry but, superhero genre or not, thats just a load of bull. |
You can make them not look like a size zero, and not look bad.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Unless they're wearing jackets which give them auto bulk, I dont have a single female char with the waist left at default. The default for the waist is unseen except on the slimest of models. The main problem is the physique slider barely effects the arms at all, while adding rediculous bulk to the legs, which leads to it being nigh useless.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Move the physique slider up and move the waist slider up.
You can make them not look like a size zero, and not look bad. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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My rebuttal:|
Originally Posted by BrandX
My point on Sam's examples, was that they just seemed fantasy based. That was all.
He shows those, and I see "I want City of Medevil Fantasy" as the basis for the suggestion. |
And even leaving out the fantasy argument, I've tried a couple times to make a female bruiser on COH, but always ended up deleting her cause she never looked right. Turning up the Physique slider only made her look like a caricature of Chun-li. Huge thighs and chest with stick arms and teeny, tiny Barbie-hands.
And lets not forget the "inhumanly" thin neck.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Two of those are the minority in superhero comics. |
Originally Posted by Cowman
My rebuttal:
And even leaving out the fantasy argument, I've tried a couple times to make a female bruiser on COH, but always ended up deleting her cause she never looked right. Turning up the Physique slider only made her look like a caricature of Chun-li. Huge thighs and chest with stick arms and teeny, tiny Barbie-hands. |
I haven't seen what you're saying however. I've seen plenty that reminded me of She-Hulk.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
It's time again to bring up the need for a muscular female model-type.
A little example of what I mean. As it is, we have super models that are supposed to look like warriors.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."