Immunity to environment while zoning in
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-09 06:20 in Suggestions and Ideas
Maybe they could add the immunity that you get when you first enter a PvP zone only with a much shorter timer.
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That would be a great solution!|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Maybe they could add the immunity that you get when you first enter a PvP zone only with a much shorter timer.
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Hugs
Stormy
With regard to the Apex TF in particular:
You zone in at the top of the building, in the helicopter, not the bottom. When you take the stairs, you are already in the zone that the mission takes place in. If you look down the side of the building, you can actually see the exit, and whether it has an aura around it - a clear indication that it is all one zone. Your ignorance of this is unfortunate and weakens your argument for the general case.
A good player would be aware of the possibility of a damage aura at the door in that mission and take prudent steps to avoid it, rather than charging in like a n00b - or, if they insist on doing so, have the wisdom and courage to accept that it's their decision and their fault and not whine about it or demand that the game be changed to allow them to act carelessly.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Just for clarification my compromise was specifically meant for when a player firsts enters a mission and not for situations that you described or things like elevators once inside missions.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
With regard to the Apex TF in particular:
You zone in at the top of the building, in the helicopter, not the bottom. When you take the stairs, you are already in the zone that the mission takes place in. If you look down the side of the building, you can actually see the exit, and whether it has an aura around it - a clear indication that it is all one zone. Your ignorance of this is unfortunate and weakens your argument for the general case. A good player would be aware of the possibility of a damage aura at the door in that mission and take prudent steps to avoid it, rather than charging in like a n00b - or, if they insist on doing so, have the wisdom and courage to accept that it's their decision and their fault and not whine about it or demand that the game be changed to allow them to act carelessly. |
This is a good suggestion, I have entered missions before to hear combat during the change screen, when the screen clears my toon is on the floor, fight over and I didn't even get to participate.
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You may say its one zone, because you can see it thru the window and see what is going on at the BM map, I can see Atlas thru the force field from KR, I don't think that makes Atlas and KR one zone.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
With regard to the Apex TF in particular:
You zone in at the top of the building, in the helicopter, not the bottom. When you take the stairs, you are already in the zone that the mission takes place in. If you look down the side of the building, you can actually see the exit, and whether it has an aura around it - a clear indication that it is all one zone. Your ignorance of this is unfortunate and weakens your argument for the general case. A good player would be aware of the possibility of a damage aura at the door in that mission and take prudent steps to avoid it, rather than charging in like a n00b - or, if they insist on doing so, have the wisdom and courage to accept that it's their decision and their fault and not whine about it or demand that the game be changed to allow them to act carelessly. |
The proof of pudding, if it was one zone as you claim, right? Would be like when you exit portal corp's door to enter the Peregrine big map, the change of views is pretty quick, thus demosntrating the inside of the various portal corp building are within the effective zone, and thus you do not have to zone proper, other samples is when you leave the hospital to enter the zone they are in.
My challenge to your assertion, is that, granted, you zone to a helicopter back door. You would think you have been fully zoned. You hop a few low walls and click on the door. Do you immediately appear in the map area with BM, and can interact with environmet as quickly as if you have left the Portal Corp door or hospital? My experience, is that is not the case, its a pretty lengthy you are stuck "zoning/transitioning" or whatever you want to call it; the bottom line is you are paralyzed and unable to react or interact with the environment for a long period of time, while the environment may be going to town with you! And that is my objection!
Now, I believe, I mentioned that good pactices could be taken to work around the problem, maybe you failed to read that in your need to show-off your peculiar wisdom. I also believe, I did say it was ok bobbie-trapping the door too and no need to change the mission, but I guess once more you had to show-off your smarts...
Stormy
*facepalm*
No, you cannot actually see Atlas Park from KR. You see mock-up buildings behind the War Wall, which are still part of the Steel Canyon map and load along with the rest of the buildings in the accessible part of the zone. You cannot really see into Atlas from an adjacent zone any more than you can see into Talos from north Founders or vice versa. This game does not work that way.
Mission 2 of Apex takes place on a single map, which is divided into two locations - much as the "floors" of an office are all actually on one map, but spaced far enough apart that you normally can't see them. (Rarely the in-game map glitches, and you can see all the mini-floors at once.) The transition from roof to street is exactly like taking an elevator, and in my experience, takes a similar amount of time. I suggest that if it takes much longer for you, it's because your computer is now being asked to render the enemies, attack FX, etc which it didn't have to when you were far away and not in the thick of combat. But I assure you, you are fully in the zone for the mission as soon as you appear in the helicopter, and no amount of immunity while zoning in will protect you from the consequences of moving from one part of the map to another without exercising some caution and common sense in an encounter that is designed to be more difficult than most boss battles.
I'm sorry your computer apparently isn't up to snuff for rendering a pitched battle without lagging.
I'm sorry you don't understand how zones work in this game.
I'm sorry you apparently just can't be bothered to not charge, lemming-like, into the fray. (It always worked in AE, am I right?)
And I'm probably going to be sorry I just spent ten minutes of my life trying to educate you a little.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
It would be nice to have this fixed (on actual zoning, not the Apex TF), but I think it might be kind of difficult to do. It seems to me like the amount of time that you are 'in' the mission and can be attacked before you get to take control of your character isn't static. It seems to be based on how fast/slow you load the mission map. So setting up anything with a static duration might not work so well.
/unsigned. I can count on 1 finger zoning is dangerous - a late red side mission in Mercy, when you are attacked when entering. Solution is just prepare beforehand, like everything else in the game.
As for Apex, you get a little warning before the attacks occurs. All you are doing is just going through the door after someone who tripped off the attack. Be faster or go together, problem solved. It is easy to get through the door and back in the battle. Try learning more about the Apex TF before making wild claims.
And as usual, what game are you playing? My support toons have never experience these problems you post about, maybe because I prepare ahead and don't rush like a lemming and crying the game is broke or unfair afterwards.
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Finally one that understands the issue!|
Originally Posted by firespray
It would be nice to have this fixed (on actual zoning, not the Apex TF), but I think it might be kind of difficult to do. It seems to me like the amount of time that you are 'in' the mission and can be attacked before you get to take control of your character isn't static. It seems to be based on how fast/slow you load the mission map. So setting up anything with a static duration might not work so well.
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A simple programing technique, that is not timer based, is a simple "ping" or "ping" like function.
So far as we transition into a zone, there is a period of time that it takes for you to be able to react. This time may be variable, and the time it takes, may not be fully your systems' fault as indicated by another very sorry player :<P It also could be the server or CoH's modems responsibility as well. I can say this with confidence because I run an SLI duo video card set-up in my state-of-the art computer, each of my video cards have more onboard memory than most folk's have on their computers and I have a dedicated cable modem and connection to my computer. So the length I am waiting for the server to supply graphic information is spent waiting on CoH. I also ensure there are no background programs robbing me of performance as well, but I have so much processing power in my quad processors, that I would find it hard to believe they could.
Now let me explain the "ping" effect I am talking about. The system could querry your computer for a "status", obviusly since your transitioning, your system would either not respond to the querry or indicate its loading. Thus the system would know not to impart effects on your alt at that time; the moment the systems pings your computer and your computer returns an "I am zoned" reply, then effects of whatever is happening environmetally around you takes effect. But by now you can hit an inspiration, move, do whatever you need to do. If you do nothing, well you deserve what you get.
Stormy
OK, but there are few maps where ambushes happen, and as pointed out above the Apex final mission IS one map, you can see your allies fighting below and the blue patches of doom. It's become a method on teams to yell if there is blue at the door so people won't fall into that trap.
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Alright Penny, enough is enough...|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
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And as usual, what game are you playing? My support toons have never experience these problems you post about, maybe because I prepare ahead and don't rush like a lemming and crying the game is broke or unfair afterwards. |
Please read my postings more carefully, don't be so coy or dumb about it. It seems to me you may get your kicks from insulting others and calling them dumb, if you do so, be ready to have the same lack of courtesy returned to you.
If you are able, and I am wondering about your ability to do that, you may figure I am not complaining about the door being trapped, my complaint is over the period of time when you can not react to the environment while the environment is doing stuff to you. Big difference. Can you comprehend this? Or is it too subtle for you?
I still contend while you can work around an issue, does not make the issue pointless. Just like a pothole on your street, you can insist, "well I just don't go driving like an idiot down the street, and then cry when I hit the pothole", by your attitude one could infer that there is no need to ever repair the street, since its not a problem after all.
Stormfront
Well Stormy, hate to burst your bubble, but I read all the post before responding. I actually gather information, think on it, then reply.
Anyhow, I comprehend your OP just fine. You fail, in many of your posts, to deliver any facts, just your perceptions. You speak of potholes, I call them imaginary sightings. Show some real facts and maybe some solutions can be worked out. As this so called zoning issue, define it's extent. Like I said, I only know one red side mission this is an issue. But since I am not a lemming, I prepare. You are not the only player to play a support toon or get hammered at the door in Apex. The game is easy enough and has plenty of ways to make it easier.
Apparently you only look for agreement to your posts.
EDIT -
Stormy, one last addition. You see a pothole as in the door in the Apex TF. IMO, that pothole was put there on purpose for challenge because we can't just fly down from the roof. People complete (keyword) this TF regularly (including the Master of). The door is there to make you stop and think - should I be a lemming and rush in? Or should I prepare and check to make sure it is safe? You even give the solution of checking with the team in the OP.
Reading your posts, you prefer the former, whereas I prefer the latter. This is why I see your posts as very poor. You want to make an easy game even easier. Just what are you going to do if there are new TFs for the 2nd, 3rd, etc. to Omega slots? You are supposedly an incarnate with multiple slotting making you incredibly powerful. If a door stops you now, what's next?
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Well Stormy, hate to burst your bubble, but I read all the post before responding. I actually gather information, think on it, then reply.
Anyhow, I comprehend your OP just fine. You fail, in many of your posts, to deliver any facts, just your perceptions. You speak of potholes, I call them imaginary sightings. Show some real facts and maybe some solutions can be worked out. As this so called zoning issue, define it's extent. Like I said, I only know one red side mission this is an issue. But since I am not a lemming, I prepare. You are not the only player to play a support toon or get hammered at the door in Apex. The game is easy enough and has plenty of ways to make it easier. Apparently you only look for agreement to your posts. EDIT - Stormy, one last addition. You see a pothole as in the door in the Apex TF. IMO, that pothole was put there on purpose for challenge because we can't just fly down from the roof. People complete (keyword) this TF regularly (including the Master of). The door is there to make you stop and think - should I be a lemming and rush in? Or should I prepare and check to make sure it is safe? You even give the solution of checking with the team in the OP. Reading your posts, you prefer the former, whereas I prefer the latter. This is why I see your posts as very poor. You want to make an easy game even easier. Just what are you going to do if there are new TFs for the 2nd, 3rd, etc. to Omega slots? You are supposedly an incarnate with multiple slotting making you incredibly powerful. If a door stops you now, what's next? |
Penny! are you so dense? you can't understand the substance of the posting?
How many times, I have to keep telling you: You are judging the wrong issue!
Penny: IT IS FINE THE TRAP AT THE DOOR
Penny: IT IS FINE THE TRAP AT THE DOOR
Penny: IT IS FINE THE TRAP AT THE DOOR
Get it?
What it is not fine:
Penny: The problem is the mechanic of transitioning, you are subject to the trap while phasing in, and not being able to react to it for a period of time due to game server mechanics, and no fault of your own.
Penny: The Problem is while phasing, the environment is hurting you, and you can't do a thing, your keyboard/mouse is for all practical purposes disabled.
Penny: The environment should not be able to interact with you while transitioning, simply because you can't interact with it.
Now, with regards to disagreement, I have no issue with folks disagreeing with me; I do have a problem when they mis-read my post, go into a tangent, come up with a totally stupid conclusion and blaze away. I also have a problem with folks disagreeing and having to use insults, and condescending remarks to give value to their likely weak point.
Stormy
Stormy, are you dense? I know what you are saying. What you fail at is that I know that. Very simply, that zoning at the door is there on purpose. Get it? The devs know you have to zone at the door. The solution is not to rush in like you do or check with the team.
If you had any facts like the TF can not be completed or that after X amount of TFs there were Y amount of deaths just at that door and no where else, then I would agree there is an issue to be resolved. You have shown nothing but a whine about a door.
And lastly, it appears to be fine you to attack others, but when you get the same reply back, you start playing the victim.
Storm... the Apex door is instant, or near enough, and you can check the other side from above. And death would just occur as soon as you moved anyway as you can't escape from an active blue spot. Elevator tops are the same, without the option to check, and almost never contain ambushes.
As for ambushes when zoning INTO a mission, these are rare and unfair I agree. But it's happened so little since I started playing I deal with it.
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Yeah, the problem is zoning effectively occurs in two parts. The first part is the server moving your character to the map (which includes creating a mission instance if required) and sending you any pertinent information (such as "there's a rikti raid going on") while the second part is your computer loading the zone for you. The sever doesn't really have any way to judge how long the second part takes since it's dependent on your hardware. |
Originally Posted by firespray
It would be nice to have this fixed (on actual zoning, not the Apex TF), but I think it might be kind of difficult to do. It seems to me like the amount of time that you are 'in' the mission and can be attacked before you get to take control of your character isn't static. It seems to be based on how fast/slow you load the mission map. So setting up anything with a static duration might not work so well.
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The only solution I can see would be that when you zone in you are phased (or otherwise invincible) until you move or attack but I'm sure if the devs implemented it someone would find a way to abuse it.
I think it goes without saying that I'm fine with the Apex door.
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Just off the top of my head I can think of one major exploit to a phased/invulnerable until you move flag. Level 50 player and a pack of lowbies enter mission, the 50 goes off and murderizes every mob on the map, the lowbies stay and get rewards for literally zero risk. Since they're immune to all damage/status effects and whatnot they profit from the rewards disproportionately compared to someone who has to actually y'know, work (relatively speaking) for their loot and xp.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yeah, the problem is zoning effectively occurs in two parts. The first part is the server moving your character to the map (which includes creating a mission instance if required) and sending you any pertinent information (such as "there's a rikti raid going on") while the second part is your computer loading the zone for you. The sever doesn't really have any way to judge how long the second part takes since it's dependent on your hardware.
The only solution I can see would be that when you zone in you are phased (or otherwise invincible) until you move or attack but I'm sure if the devs implemented it someone would find a way to abuse it. I think it goes without saying that I'm fine with the Apex door. |
As to the OP, if he's really having such trouble with death on loading experiences, my suggestion is to upgrade his hardware. I rarely die on zoning into a mission (even an ambush/front loaded patrol one) on my pretty powerful desktop machine, but my third as powerful laptop I die every so often because my machine takes longer to process the loading than the game server does. This isn't a failing with the game, but with the equipment I use to access it.
PS: I'm also fine with the Apex door. I don't like the blue loldeath patches in concept or execution, but the door isn't a big deal.
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I considered that but actually I don't think it would be a huge problem. People already doorsit to get XP at minimal risk. Unless the person doing the farming is hugely incompetent the risk for the lowbies might as well be zero anyway.
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Originally Posted by Riley_Delacroix
Just off the top of my head I can think of one major exploit to a phased/invulnerable until you move flag. Level 50 player and a pack of lowbies enter mission, the 50 goes off and murderizes every mob on the map, the lowbies stay and get rewards for literally zero risk. Since they're immune to all damage/status effects and whatnot they profit from the rewards disproportionately compared to someone who has to actually y'know, work (relatively speaking) for their loot and xp.
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/unsigned
I'm not saying it can't be suckie to run into such situations, but it takes away any threat.
Look at it from a different perspective.
My character enters the mission, could take the aggro and the ambush that's waiting as soon as my character zones.
My character just got a free pass on easy no worry attacking!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Well, phase *powers* have a 30 second timer on them. I'd bet a phase "state" that gets applied when you zone in could have something similar done. Not sure about the "drop on move," though.
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Originally Posted by Riley_Delacroix
Just off the top of my head I can think of one major exploit to a phased/invulnerable until you move flag. Level 50 player and a pack of lowbies enter mission, the 50 goes off and murderizes every mob on the map, the lowbies stay and get rewards for literally zero risk. Since they're immune to all damage/status effects and whatnot they profit from the rewards disproportionately compared to someone who has to actually y'know, work (relatively speaking) for their loot and xp.
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I just think hot doors are bad.
I have a level 38 mastermind. I was doing an AE arc that looked interesting. Nothing super exciting, just going through stories, clicking on glowies.
Mission #3 had a hot door, and was set with a level range of 1-30.
So.
There I am, dropped 8 levels, no pets, being attacked by a spawn.
This makes it just a LITTLE hard for me to do my mastermind thing, especially since I normally run at x8, because that's a good challenge assuming I'm allowed to play my character. But I'm not on that mission, so nevermind.
Hot doors are a Bad Thing in a game where some archetypes are dysfunctional without setup.
Hi:
From time to time as I am zoning into a mission, even when coming out of an elevator, there is a period of time that my character is disabled, that is I am not able to interact with the environment, yet the environment "is" interacting with me.
As a whole, when I play a melee, that is not much of an issue; but as a support its an entirely different story. You enter the mission from outside map, the mobs happen to be there during a patrol, and as you are zoning in, you can't even see the room but you can hear the mobs mez and zapping you as you "phase in", normally you can survive this at great consequence to your health and force to quickly gulp inspirations as if you were in drugs.
The other night, I participated in an Apex, and notice that while I could not interact with the environment, the environment had no diffuclty interacting with me. Even my tanker was zoned dead before I could even pop an inspiration!
I know some of you will say, ask a team member if the lighning bolt of death is at the door before zoning in, but working around a game mechanic issue: Is not fixing the issue!
My central statement is thus: "If one can not interact with the environment; then the environment can not interact with us either"
I understand that zoning is a needed, can't be helped, game software execution mechanic; I have no issue with that. I do have an issue, where the software is programed to allow an exploit against the players based on that.
With regards to the blue lightning of death in Apex, I am ok with it being at the door, but I suffer no damage from it while I am software transitioning-in, the moment that I can interact with the environment, transitioned-in completely, that very instant I commence to take damage; that is appropriate.
Stormy