Instead of changing the Incarnate Shard drop rate...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-06 09:36 in Suggestions and Ideas
Well, I won't say I'm opposed to this; but I will say that I don't really see the need for it.
[And I'm speaking as one of those Non-TF running players who have done a ton of stuff without getting any shard drops. Out of the two characters that I've opened the incarnate stuff on so far, I've run 18 tip missions (set at +1/x3 to +1/x6 on a scrapper and +2/x4 to +1/x8 on a tank) and have gotten a grand total of one (count em! 1) shard so far.]
But it just doesn't bother me that much. I went in knowing that running normal content would only give me drops at something close to the purple-receipe drop rate (ie nearly never), so it's not like I've been surprised or anything.
And I know that if I ever really do get impatient about it, I can grit my teeth and run TFs to get there quickly...
So, as I said, I don't really see the need for "shard missions", but I wouldn't argue about them (as long as they are done at least as well as the new Rogue/Vigilante tip missions . . . those are really well done and quite entertaining).
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
I would make this easier. Every day, a different level 45-50 arc would be the "Daily Shard Arc." Doing that arc in Ouro nets one shard (plus any you get as drops.)
And the RNG is amazing sometimes. First time I did the ITF post I19 I got two shards whole TF. 
Last night I did it and got TEN! plus the component! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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One of the arcs/missions should involve doing great harm to a RNG.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I would make this easier. Every day, a different level 45-50 arc would be the "Daily Shard Arc." Doing that arc in Ouro nets one shard (plus any you get as drops.)
And the RNG is amazing sometimes. First time I did the ITF post I19 I got two shards whole TF. Last night I did it and got TEN! plus the component! |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
To be honest I kinda wish they had increased the drop chance but also increased the number required (i.e. double the drop chance, but it takes 8 for a component and 16 to do the component upgrade). From a practical point fo view this wouldn't change the average time/reward ratio but it would serve to tighten the bell curve a bit.
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Keep in mind we are only in the common and uncommon phase for alpha. We'll likely need a lot of them before it is all said and done.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
To be honest I kinda wish they had increased the drop chance but also increased the number required (i.e. double the drop chance, but it takes 8 for a component and 16 to do the component upgrade). From a practical point fo view this wouldn't change the average time/reward ratio but it would serve to tighten the bell curve a bit.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Sure, I know that. My point was that the current random drops feel very, very random. Doubling the reward rate (by doubling the chance of a random drop or doubling the quantity for static drops) and doubling the number required (for all levels of the system) would help level it out a bit (i.e. a bad streak is less likely but a good streak is less useful). The potential downside is that if the devs want to make content where the enemies have a higher random drop chance they can't boost it as much.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Keep in mind we are only in the common and uncommon phase for alpha. We'll likely need a lot of them before it is all said and done.
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Not opposed to the suggestion, but I would like to see some more time with this issue so that we can get some "real numbers" here. It may be slow, but if they increase the rate, then they run the risk of too many (all?) players have uncommon Alpha slots, plus a pile of shards just ready to be converted. Add that if there is an open beta, players will see what the next round of requirements are for shards/slots, stockpile them and be fully slotted 5 min after the issue comes out.
Again, not a bad idea, but I would place a bet that the devs are watching, checking who is naughty or ni....er gathering data on drops and slotting for datamining later and adjust the rates up (or down) as needed, based on how fast they want us to slot up.
I'm actually not opposed to the Shard drop rate slowness, what I'm opposed to is its utter unreliability. One of the first things that gets drilled into your head when you study statistics is that random chance has no memory. If you flip a coin 19 times and get 19 heads, your chance to flip heads again is still 50/50 (assuming a fair coin).
What this means is that if I go an entire day without getting a Shard drop, I have effectively achieved nothing. Random chance will not go out of its way to give me more Shards tomorrow to even things out. No, tomorrow will go on as if today never happened, so I have effectively gotten dick for my hard work.
Making the Shards system finer-grained may or may not speed up the process, but it will almost certain let us walk away with a greater feeling of accomplishment. Getting 1 out of 40 is still better than getting 0 out of 4. That 1 still puts me one closer with 49 to go. That ZERO puts me no closer to my goal, as I have exactly the same number of Shards to look for as I did before.
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On topic, I'd personally love to see level 50 playable story arcs grant a single Incarnate shard, at least.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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AMEN ! |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm actually not opposed to the Shard drop rate slowness, what I'm opposed to is its utter unreliability. One of the first things that gets drilled into your head when you study statistics is that random chance has no memory. If you flip a coin 19 times and get 19 heads, your chance to flip heads again is still 50/50 (assuming a fair coin).
What this means is that if I go an entire day without getting a Shard drop, I have effectively achieved nothing. Random chance will not go out of its way to give me more Shards tomorrow to even things out. No, tomorrow will go on as if today never happened, so I have effectively gotten dick for my hard work. Making the Shards system finer-grained may or may not speed up the process, but it will almost certain let us walk away with a greater feeling of accomplishment. Getting 1 out of 40 is still better than getting 0 out of 4. That 1 still puts me one closer with 39 to go. That ZERO puts me no closer to my goal, as I have exactly the same number of Shards to look for as I did before.--- On topic, I'd personally love to see level 50 playable story arcs grant a single Incarnate shard, at least. |
Make it so Devs !
*Section highlighted for emphasis*
The system currently rewards Teaming too heavily, and Solo-ing too little.
This may be WAI but could stand for an adjustment in my opinion. By adding a daily shard "run" there would be a feeling of progress for players that only team occasionally (like on weekends) and spend the majority of their game time "solo". The major teaming benefit would always remain intact due to "speed-of-defeats", and the 4-shard reward at the end of the TF (if that is what you are doing). No solo-er will ever beat that (even though there are the rare combinations that can come close).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I think the "piles of shards" is going to be a reality if you team even occasionally.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Not opposed to the suggestion, but I would like to see some more time with this issue so that we can get some "real numbers" here. It may be slow, but if they increase the rate, then they run the risk of too many (all?) players have uncommon Alpha slots, plus a pile of shards just ready to be converted. Add that if there is an open beta, players will see what the next round of requirements are for shards/slots, stockpile them and be fully slotted 5 min after the issue comes out.
Again, not a bad idea, but I would place a bet that the devs are watching, checking who is naughty or ni....er gathering data on drops and slotting for datamining later and adjust the rates up (or down) as needed, based on how fast they want us to slot up. |
Biospark is sitting with his Uncommon boost of choice and enough material to make a common boost after only one weekend of TF running (Kahn, STF(x2), ITF(1 or 2 times ??)). And I have no intention of wasting time and material making all eight uncommons and all four commons to fill out the tree. So anything else I get from now until the next release of boosts is "gravy" and will just sit there waiting.
Thats the equivalent of 44 shards (estimating, I took the component reward every TF)
with only THREE shards from doing my 5 tips each day (This includes the 1 shard from doing the "unlock" Arc).
Teaming 41 shards (8-10 hours work over 2 days)
Solo 3 shards (8-10 hours work over 5 days)
As I have said before, this "Ratio" may be intended, buuuuttt I don't like it.
***as a side-note, a daily shard run would have raised my solo amount up to 8, which is still a far cry from the teaming rewards, but it would have gotten me closer to my Common boost before jumping into my first TF this weekend at least***
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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One of the best changes ever made to TF2 was the change to the drop rate. Before the change, the game rolled at random intervals to see if you got a drop. Now, it rolls to see when you get a drop. This way, even if you're the unluckiest person in the world, you're still guaranteed to get a drop. I'd love to see more random drop systems follow that model, and I think the Incarnate Shards would a perfect place for it.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm actually not opposed to the Shard drop rate slowness, what I'm opposed to is its utter unreliability. One of the first things that gets drilled into your head when you study statistics is that random chance has no memory. If you flip a coin 19 times and get 19 heads, your chance to flip heads again is still 50/50 (assuming a fair coin).
What this means is that if I go an entire day without getting a Shard drop, I have effectively achieved nothing. Random chance will not go out of its way to give me more Shards tomorrow to even things out. No, tomorrow will go on as if today never happened, so I have effectively gotten dick for my hard work. Making the Shards system finer-grained may or may not speed up the process, but it will almost certain let us walk away with a greater feeling of accomplishment. Getting 1 out of 40 is still better than getting 0 out of 4. That 1 still puts me one closer with 49 to go. That ZERO puts me no closer to my goal, as I have exactly the same number of Shards to look for as I did before. |
We'll always have Paragon.
My pov on this issue is the current shard drop rate "feels" right.
Shards droppage should be at the mercy of the rng...that is part of the arc of the charactor progression, fate is a fickle mistress.
If a reward is automatically becomes expected, it loses some of the luster and in some manner diminishes the uniqueness. For the PnP RPG vets...think monty hall-ish if it becomes common place.
Perhaps it is a matter of subjective observation, most of the playerbase are vets...had stabled 50s for awhile and just now, we get to boost them.
If we had the singular experience of only lvl 1 toon to 50 and then strive for slotting the Alpha slot, we might have a different perspective of the shard drop rate...something to consider.
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Your perspective is shared by many folks here, and I don't criticize that viewpoint, however...|
Originally Posted by Razawere
My pov on this issue is the current shard drop rate "feels" right.
Shards droppage should be at the mercy of the rng...that is part of the arc of the charactor progression, fate is a fickle mistress. If a reward is automatically becomes expected, it loses some of the luster and in some manner diminishes the uniqueness. For the PnP RPG vets...think monty hall-ish if it becomes common place. Perhaps it is a matter of subjective observation, most of the playerbase are vets...had stabled 50s for awhile and just now, we get to boost them. If we had the singular experience of only lvl 1 toon to 50 and then strive for slotting the Alpha slot, we might have a different perspective of the shard drop rate...something to consider. |
Not all toons solo just as well as the next toon, but yet they can jump into a team and earn rewards at the SAME rate as the more "team-oriented" toons. This is not an issue if the vast majority of players spend the majority of their time "teaming". It IS a concern for players like myself that only team ocasionally, due to heavy personal demands and working odd hours. Due to this, I spend the majority of my play time "solo", with the exception being the Weekend, where I can "ocasionally" join up with guildmates.
I am not asking for any "special" hand-outs regarding Incarnates because I prefer team-oriented characters, but am not able to team 100% of the time. What I am repeatedly saying is that the shard rate (while solo) is waaaayyy too grindy, especially if you are not able to crank it up to X8. While, on the other hand, getting shards while teamed, especially on High-end TFs is way too easy. I don't have a real good suggestion for how to make it work better, but I think the daily shard "mission" idea has the best chance of helping people like me, WITHOUT making it ridiculously easy for players with "different" playstyles.
P.S. I liked that reference to "Monty-Haul"
brings back memories. Of course, the last time I played PnP, there was no subscription fee. Hmmm, well unless you count the BYOB house rules :P
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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What if we were to give it a memory?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
One of the first things that gets drilled into your head when you study statistics is that random chance has no memory. If you flip a coin 19 times and get 19 heads, your chance to flip heads again is still 50/50 (assuming a fair coin).
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We know that the current drop rate is pretty low. For the sake of argument, we'll assume that it's currently 0.1%.
Under the new, proposed system, the player starts at a -50% (yes, that's negative) chance to get a shard, and increases by 0.1% each time it rolls and fails to generate a shard. Clamp the checks from 0.5% to 50%. This means that for any check where the chance is lower than 0.1%, it gets adjusted up to 0.1% - the first 500 checks are therefore all at the current rate. After that, the chance increases, until, after 1000 kills, there's a 50% chance to get a drop per kill. Once a drop is obtained, the chance resets to the original -50% chance.
This would create a sort of "Streak Breaker" without it becoming a forced drop every X kills. Once you get past 500 kills, the chances start to increase fairly rapidly, but someone with horrendous luck could (theoretically) go hours after reaching the 50% cap without getting a drop. It wouldn't be likely though.
@Roderick
TL;DR Version: How about making Incarnate Shard reward missions?
Full Version: So there have been plenty of complaints about the shard rate not being high enough, or that people have gone for hours only to see one or two drop. This complaint has it's validity. We've all had the RNG snub us at one point or another. Nothing's more frustrating than grinding for hours to come away with only half of what you need while someone else on the team is elated they have enough twice over.
So how about making some missions (not completely unlike Tip Missions) that reward you with a shard drop upon completion. The kicker? They're defeat all maps, with an EB. The maps should be large, and the spawn count high. Whether it's set to -1/1 or not, there should be enough mobs to help maintain the drop rate ratio. Oh, and if it's possible to make this exception, there should be no shard drops from mission foes.
The desired result I'm aiming for is a way to allow a surefire drop for casual players, that still requires the amount of work the devs want to see in creating an Incarnate enhancement. At the same time, the player knows they are making progress towards their goal - which has been the biggest concern from the player-base.
Thoughts?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.