Quick answer to your question is yes, yes, yes. You're only half right when you said that Invul is a resist set. You'll only get the most performance out of Invul if you also build up your smash/lethal defense and it's really not that difficult to achieve though it could be expensive. With weave, CJ and maybe maneuvers, you can get up to about 25-30% def against S/L without emptying your wallet too much (Reactive Armor, Steadfast IO, Smashing Haymaker, Taunt set bonues.. etc). If you got a bigger budget to play with (Kinetic Combat, Obliteration, etc), you can get to 35%-40% or even softcap. In either case, Invincibility will help cover the any remaining holes when you're fighting large spawns. As for the additional endurance burden, Dark Consumption from your primary should make that less of an issue?
For my dm/invul, I'm staying with aid self. With that in mind, you'd have 3 heals at the click of a button. Are you thinking about taking Res Energies and Res Elements? I assume if you take the fighting pool, you'll skip taking a few DM powers?
I took everything from the DM pool except for shadow punch and taunt. Reason being is for the first time ever I went pyre epic instead of mu. Fireball always seemed to be a better pull than ball lightning. With a dm/invul, you have so many good powers without enough slots.
IMO, with the current availability of defense bonuses and defense pool powers, increasing defense is the single most effective tactic you can use to increase survivability for a Invul character.
As OABAAB mentioned, Invul relies very heavily on defense for mitigation, especially for non-SL damage, and increasing it will only help.
I think getting Aid Self on a DM/Invul character would be a waste; why would you need or want 3 heal powers? Get the Fighting Pool, CJ and the Steadfast +Def IO and you'll have added significant defense without any set bonuses. (Though they're definitely worth getting too.)
Dark Consumption should help alleviate any endurance problems, especially if your powers are well slotted for end reduction. Invul is not a particularly end heavy set, and adding Tough and Weave shouldn't be a insurmountable problem. You might want to consider posting your build if the endurance problems persist.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Aid Self?
Aid *BLEEP!* Self?
Say it ain't so Joe! Say it ain't so!
Head into the Defender forum and look at the response to "Pure Healer" threads.
Having to heal the damage after it's hit is the absolute WORST possible damage mitigation mechanic. It means you've failed to:
- Kill the opponent first. Dead enemies deal no damage.
- Avoid the damage due to defense buffs/To Hit debuffs.
- Take only part of the damage due to resistance buffs or damage debuffs.
There are far better, more useful power picks out there. Period.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Aid Self?
Aid *BLEEP!* Self? Say it ain't so Joe! Say it ain't so! |
Dull Pain grants +HP, which is functionally the same as stacking more Resist(All) on top of what you've already got. It also comes with a bigass heal, for when you hit an "Oh <bleep!>" situation.
Siphon Life is a hard-hitting attack, with similar DPA and DPE to Smite and Shadow Punch, and should be used frequently in your attack chain. It also comes with a 10% heal, which should keep your HP close to full most of the time. If you find that it doesn't, there's a lot of Melee sets that are good with only 5 pieces. If you 5-slot level 35 Crushing Impact (drop the Dam/Rech) and one level 50 Common Heal IO, you get a 6.4 End, 7 second Recharge, 125% Accuracy attack that does 159 damage with 0 Fury or 258 with 60% Fury, and adds a 14% heal. And it debuffs the enemy's ToHit.
Oh, and Aid Self is Interruptable. Siphon Life isn't.
@Roderick
Quote:
Not only that, the +HP also bumps how much you regenerate.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
This.
Dull Pain grants +HP, which is functionally the same as stacking more Resist(All) on top of what you've already got. It also comes with a bigass heal, for when you hit an "Oh <bleep!>" situation. |
Quote:
| Oh, and Aid Self is Interruptable. Siphon Life isn't. |
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I completely agree that it would be not be a good choice for the OP, but Aid Self isn't *that* bad. I even still have it on my main tank, though that's for concept reasons.
Back before inventions, it was arguably a reasonable alternative to trying to use what limited options were available at the time to increase defense and resistance. Now, since it's possible to soft-cap on many builds, defense is clearly the better alternative. And that goes double for DM/Invul, which already has two quite good heals available to it.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
When looked at by itself, no. But we're saying that, when you have powers like Dull Pain or Siphon Life, there's no good reason to have it.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
but Aid Self isn't *that* bad.
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@Roderick
Quote:
Especially when you have both!
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Originally Posted by Roderick
When looked at by itself, no. But we're saying that, when you have powers like Dull Pain or Siphon Life, there's no good reason to have it.
|
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Just to toss in a comment about Aid Self on a DM/Invun.
lolaidself
Aid Self is great for sets like /SR or /EA
Siphon Life has a quicker animation, and can't be stopped. Keep that in mind.
Well, you do have three extra powers (but not slots) to play with now that Fitness is inherent. I think the OP raises a good question. Before, it was harder to justify taking a plethora of power pools.
This is an ancient topic and a subject of tanker threads for years. When combing the power pools for more defensive capabilities, it basically comes down to personal preference ...
1 -- can you manage a ton of click powers? I can't but some can ... making Aid Self an option for them. Defense-based tankers seem to get more from Aid Self as they can deal with the interrupt issue better.
2 -- can you handle the endurance burn? Are you willing to double-slot end reducers in attacks and/or slot full melee sets to get 50%+ reduction on click and toggle powers? If you are willing to do this, adding another toggle or two (Tough + Weave) can be done.
3 -- is the improvement to survivability from Tough + Weave significant enough to devote three powers? For pure tanker types, maybe .. but for a Brute, maybe not. It depends on how you play and what your role is. You may get greater mitigation from enhancing your offensive output or adding epic powers that give you other forms of mitigation (immobilization, stun, etc.).
4 -- it's incredibly unpopular, but the Presence Pool works too if you are in the "tank" role. The fear IO sets also have some great bonuses and are relatively cheap.
All that said, don't blast the OP. Under the new regime, assume you take 8 powers each from the primary and secondary pools ... plus 2 for a travel power and 3 epic powers. You still have 3 more powers and it's natural to want to enhance your survivability.
Quote:
You want Tough and Weave.|
Originally Posted by GreenBone
Hi all. I think I know the answer to this, but before I respec AGAIN, is it worth anything at all on a DM/Invuln Brute to take the Fighting Pool? I took it for a couple reasons: (1) I got another quick attack to build Fury, but with a full attach chain may not need it. (2) Tough adds a good bit of S/L resistance to stack on my /Invuln resistances. But I also took Weave, and noticed when running it, I'm back to END issues again. Plus, all I'm getting is 3.75 more DEF (on a RES character), and Immob protection I already have in one of my secondary power choices.
|
Invuln is not a "resistance" character, you have layered defenses, resistances and HP.
If you're having end issues with weave, you need to fix the endurance issues - not drop weave.
Take the fighting pool.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Speaking as an Invuln, I will say this in reply to the above post: THIS (if you solo missions).|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You want Tough and Weave.
Invuln is not a "resistance" character, you have layered defenses, resistances and HP. If you're having end issues with weave, you need to fix the endurance issues - not drop weave. |
Whether its adding +recovery special IOs, or chucking some more end-reducing enhancements in, or using the Energy Mastery pool, or whatever, do what you need to keep that power.
However, if you regularly run with a crowd that has partywide +def buffs, you can probably get by without it. Unless you regularly run against a crowd with massive -def debuffs...
Forgive me for overlooking the DEF element - I was thinking low level, but see the higher level DEF bonuses in powers now.
So in my current build, (note I'm an Accuracy addict) I was able to work in the following. I am by no means a min-max champion, and haven't worked in IO Frankenslotting or bonuses yet, but are there any big no-nos here? Thank you.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Basalena: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite
- (A) Accuracy
- (31) Damage Increase
- (42) Damage Increase
- (43) Damage Increase
- (48) Recharge Reduction
- (48) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Resist Damage
- (A) Resist Damage
- (3) Resist Damage
- (3) Resist Damage
- (7) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Recharge Reduction
- (5) Recharge Reduction
- (5) Recharge Reduction
- (7) Healing
- (11) Healing
- (11) Healing
- (A) Accuracy
- (15) Damage Increase
- (15) Damage Increase
- (43) Damage Increase
- (48) Recharge Reduction
- (50) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Accuracy
- (9) Recharge Reduction
- (9) Endurance Reduction
- (13) Recharge Reduction
- (13) Healing
- (50) Damage Increase
- (A) Accuracy
- (A) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Resist Damage
- (19) Resist Damage
- (19) Resist Damage
- (21) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Resist Damage
- (17) Resist Damage
- (17) Resist Damage
- (21) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Accuracy
- (31) Endurance Modification
- (31) Recharge Reduction
- (40) Recharge Reduction
- (50) Recharge Reduction
- (A) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Resist Damage
- (23) Resist Damage
- (23) Resist Damage
- (A) Defense Buff
- (25) Defense Buff
- (25) Defense Buff
- (27) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Accuracy
- (27) Recharge Reduction
- (36) Endurance Reduction
- (36) Recharge Reduction
- (36) Damage Increase
- (37) Damage Increase
- (A) Defense Buff
- (29) Defense Buff
- (29) Defense Buff
- (34) Endurance Reduction
- (43) Recharge Reduction
- (46) Recharge Reduction
- (A) Defense Buff
- (A) Accuracy
- (33) Recharge Reduction
- (33) Recharge Reduction
- (33) Endurance Reduction
- (34) Damage Increase
- (34) Damage Increase
- (A) Defense Buff
- (37) Defense Buff
- (37) Defense Buff
- (A) Resist Damage
- (39) Resist Damage
- (39) Resist Damage
- (39) Recharge Reduction
- (40) Recharge Reduction
- (40) Recharge Reduction
- (A) Endurance Reduction
- (A) Endurance Modification
- (45) Endurance Modification
- (45) Endurance Modification
- (45) Healing
- (46) Healing
- (46) Healing
- (A) Accuracy
- (A) Defense Buff
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Healing
- (A) Endurance Modification
- (42) Endurance Modification
- (42) Endurance Modification
Code:
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Aid Self?
Aid *BLEEP!* Self? Say it ain't so Joe! Say it ain't so! Head into the Defender forum and look at the response to "Pure Healer" threads. Having to heal the damage after it's hit is the absolute WORST possible damage mitigation mechanic. It means you've failed to:
There are far better, more useful power picks out there. Period. |
See there are parts of this I agree with and parts I don't.
[[Turns on Fire Armor Toggles]]
Ok, that should help mitigate the flaming I'm about to receive.
I agree that taking Dull Pain, Siphon Life, and Aid Self is a bit too much. Having the two heals should be sufficient. Seeing how Aid Self is interupptable and the only real benefit you get is 9.65% higher base and stun resist bonus but it has almost a double on the recharge time and its interruptable. However, Siphon Life, while it does only have a 10% base it has only a 10s recharge, adds -tohit and does damage. So I agree that you should drop the Aid Self.
However, here is where I start to disagree. Don't be afraid to take a heal or two (IE Dull Pain and Siphon Life)((Awesome Combo))(((Droolz XD)))). While it is true that the best forms of mitigation are pre-emptive measure like -tohit, defense, -dmg, and the list goes on there are just time that your going to get hit, going to take damage and if you don't have a way to mitigate the damage you've taken you will eventually die. Now, there are still other pre-emptive measures you can take like poping a purple, orange, and even a green. And while the inspirs drop pretty often there is never a guarantee that they will give you what you need. Never feel completely ashamed that you have to heal every now and again. Defense is a great tool, as is resistance and debuffs and should never be forgotten with any build. However, when spit hits the fan and the bar starts dropping a way to regain the green that isn't reliant on a random drop is always nice. However, still keep it in moderation because like Hyperstrike said, some times there can be too much.
Oh and, btw:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Having to heal the damage after it's hit is the absolute LAST possible damage mitigation mechanic.
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Also I would like to hilight this list for win at the same time:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
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Also, here is my suggestion at a build, no terribly hard to do nowadays. My only pic with this build is that the end drain feels way to high even with the dark consumption but as I have not played a Dark/Inlvul that high up I don't know for sure. Now, I can say with 3 Performance Shifter in there it should be ok but we shall see:
Code:
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Dreaded Wail hits things freakin' hard.. i like to hit things freakin' hard... so.. id go Wail... SAVE THE WAILS!!!! - Solar_Lunata
Hi all. I think I know the answer to this, but before I respec AGAIN, is it worth anything at all on a DM/Invuln Brute to take the Fighting Pool? I took it for a couple reasons: (1) I got another quick attack to build Fury, but with a full attach chain may not need it. (2) Tough adds a good bit of S/L resistance to stack on my /Invuln resistances. But I also took Weave, and noticed when running it, I'm back to END issues again. Plus, all I'm getting is 3.75 more DEF (on a RES character), and Immob protection I already have in one of my secondary power choices.
So, options are respec out of the pool entirely, take Kick and Tough but not Weave, or keep 'em all. I'm thinking keeping them all wasn't smart.
Thanks!