Request for comments: /devices
-Sonic/Devices is the only combo that really gets any mileage out of Time Bomb without dipping into APPs. AoE Sleep +Time Bomb usually results in a spawn that just disappears.
-Cloaking Device and a Stealth IO will stack to create full invisibility without having to take Super Speed as your travel power.
-Caltrops will accept damage procs from Targeted Aoe and Slow sets to become a sort of damaging power.
-You can short slot accuracy in your attacks and make up for it with Targeting Drone.
-Taser will stack with the stuns found in most blast sets to stun bosses.
I'm sure there are more, but that's what I have for now.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Here's my quick opinion on each power:
Web Grenade: A change on the normal Blaster secondary T1 it trades damage for a hefty recharge debuff. IMHO this is annoying in the early game where the extra damage would be nice but useful in the late game where the damage from the T1 immobilize is meh and an extra debuff is handy.
Caltrops: An excellent area denial power and a cornerstone of the set. Can be used as a damage power (by slotting it with lots of procs) but personally I prefer to slot it for slow and save some slots. It doesn't need a huge amount of slotting but it's worth putting a single slow enhancement in it to increase the effectiveness against +1s (add more if you like fighting higher cons).
Taser: The utility of this depends a lot on your primary and play style. It's pretty much identical to the single target stun in several sets, just with a shorter range. It's most useful if you have a stun in your primary and want to easily stack it on bosses or mez two LTs at once. Primaries with a Hold instead (Ice, Electric and sort Dual Pistols) just get the ability to mez two LTs instead which is handy but not as useful (Ice Manip is probably more useful for them since it has a Hold).
Targeting Drone: What used to be the main reason to take the set, this power has fallen on hard times. It's well worth taking but a poor trade off for Build Up when you consider that a Blaster with a different secondary could take Tactics to get ~50% To Hit bonus as providing a To Hit buff for the team (especially annoying since I19 makes taking leadership a lot more appealing for a Blaster anyway). The fact that high end IO builds tend to have a lot of global accuracy and a Kismet To Hit IO anyway further decreases the value of what should be the set's defining power.
Smoke Grenade: A moderate to hit debuff (not great, but not bad for a Blaster) and a underrated perception debuff (awesome for grabbing guarded glowies). One thing to remember when slotting is that the perception debuff is auto-hit but the to hit debuff is not.
Cloaking Device: A glorified pool power, worth taking if you've got the space but only marginally better than Stealth.
Trip Mine: A decent damage power for the patient (especially if you've got a primary on the low end of the AoE damage scale). While it is possible to run into a pack and place a mine effectively acting as a Blapper it's not really playing to the strength of the rest of the set (although I know some people like doing it). Personally my preferred use is to drop one at my feet before engaging. This serves two purposes, first it provides a 26.4% defiance damage bonus and secondly the mine serves as a deterrent to melee oriented enemies. Interesting factoid, Trip Mine, Time Bomb and Gun Drone have a longer effective Defiance duration than they should. Defiance bonus is supposed to be 7.5s + Cast Time for regular powers and 7.5s + Cast Time - Interrupt Time for interruptable powers the intent being that the buff persists for 7.5s after you finish casting the power. However the interruptable Devices powers have defiance durations equal to 7.5s + Interrupt Time which means they last for 7.5s + 2 * Interrupt Time - Casting Time after you finish casting the power.
Time Bomb: Theoretically a good power, it deals almost as much damage as the crashing nukes (except for Inferno). The problem (in my opinion) is that it is horribly boring to use. It takes 9 seconds to setup and then another 15 seconds before it goes off. I'm just not that interested in it to wait that long.
Gun Drone: A reasonably decent pet and a nice distraction, can be out permanently with little effort. The only real downside is that you have to re-summon it every 90seconds and it has that awful 7second interruptable casting time. Still the defiance boost is nice.
- I found Targeting Drone to be overkill with Archery's inherent extra accuracy. Though Claws makes a good point. Particularly with frankenslotting/common IO/SOs, you could skimp accuracy if you took T.Drone even with Archery.
- With the Tech origin, you get the Taser Dart (I think is the name) temp power that shares animations with Taser and also has a stun effect. Combining them is quick and can stun bosses for a few seconds, while you wait for another round of Taser or go into your primary's stun, which likely has a much longer animation time.
- Smoke Grenade's -perception is enough to faux stealth even that which ignores Stealth. I believe you just need to stay 10' from Advanced Drones, for example. I'd have to check on the exact number if you want to include that in a guide.
- With that in mind, Cloaking Device + Smoke Grenade will let you toe bomb almost anything with Trip Mine or Time Bomb.
- Trip Mine's damage is only 14% less than Rain of Arrows. The radius is much smaller and it takes more finesse, but I find that's a good gauge of damage to show just how awesome it is.
- Time Bomb takes 9 seconds to place and 15 seconds to explode. All the attacks that do more than that drop your endurance and kill your recovery for 20 seconds. If you've ever used a crashing nuke on a herded group or as an opening attack, you can understand why Time Bomb isn't as bad as most people make it out to be. If you do go for full invisibility, you can toe bomb extremely tough targets with it. Awesome opener.
- While Devices lacks Build Up, it has really good Defiance numbers in Trip Mine, Time Bomb, and Gun Drone. Yes, they take significantly longer to cast than BU, but use them before the alpha strike or while someone is herding.
- Perhaps more than anything else, readers should be advised not to base their impression of Trip Mine or Time Bomb off of the Traps sets. The damage numbers are much lower in those sets.
- A common complaint about Devices is some of its effects can be replicated in power pools and IOs. For the most part, that's a silly complaint. Stealth and +ToHit are all that can be replicated that way. Cloaking Device takes less endurance than Stealth, no -speed, and doesn't require you give up a pool pick. Tactics vs Targeting Drone is a lot more of a toss up. The team buffs on Tactics make it (probably) better on many teaming situations. Solo, TD is much better.
Hope that helps! I'm really glad to hear someone with experience and appreciation for Devices is writing a guide!
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
You know, I hadn't thought about time bomb toe-bombing until just now, but obviously, since I've gone for full invis, I can do that. Which would make it an actually pretty good power. So you've already changed my mind on something. I'll have to get it and see how I like it.
But I could quite like a stack of trip mines, then toe-bombing, then having 15 seconds to get back in place, lob a smoke grenade, and try to time my opener to align with the bomb.
My impression of trip mine is that with a couple of slots, a stack of five or so will kill a lot of fairly tough stuff, and that 4-slotted with obliteration bits, it's doing quite nicely indeed. (Aiming for 5-slot obliteration and an eradication quad.)
I loooove trip mine. It is a genuine competitor with caltrops for my affections, that is how awesome it is.
So, I seek comments to help fill in the gaps in my knowledge. What's awesome (or horrible) about /dev that really sticks out for you? What cool tips have you got? What synergies are there with various blast sets? |
IMHO most of the set stinks and is easily replaced by pool powers and either individual IOs or set bonuses. Stuff like Targeting Drone and Cloaking Device used to be great but are largely redundant these days.
That said, some tricks and tips culled from dragging my ar/dev kicking and screaming to 50:
Sticking a Ragnarok: Chance for Knockdown in Caltrops or Full Auto is entertaining (once you hit 50, obviously).
Targeting Drone is a good place to stick a Chance for Buildup proc.
It's still not actual Buildup, but it's better than nothing.
I really dislike the "spend ten minutes setting up for the next spawn" aspect of devices so I respec'ed out of Trip Mines. They're fine at what they do, but they impose a certain playstyle that I don't find congenial. Also, keep in mind that they are unaffected by your Targeting Drone (along with Time Bomb I believe- gee thanks devs!) so slot plenty of acc.
Web Grenade is a fine tier 1 immobilize, and is a great place to stick a Trap of the Hunter set if you go for ranged defense.
I wouldn't bother with Taser, except as an AR/Dev I can stack it with Beanbag to good effect.
Smoke Grenade is underwhelming, but as noted can be handy for wheezing glowies and the -tohit can help if you build for positional defense.
Cloaking device, meh. I'd blow a few mil on a stealth IO and save the power choice.
Time Bomb is hot garbage. It's a hidden dev IQ test- if you take Time Bomb they exclude you from future betas. =P
Gun Drone's better than it used to be as Assault Turret, but it's still weak (especially with the OMG MUST CHARGE INTO MELEE bug affecting everyone's pets). The damage is laughable, but it does attract some aggro and the defiance boost is nice. Unfortunately it's laughably long, interruptible set up time and short duration mean I rarely bother with it. It is a nice place to stick an Expedient Reinforcement set, though.
Huh...that ended up being more of a whine than a strategy guide....sorry Seebs!
=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
My impression of trip mine is that with a couple of slots, a stack of five or so will kill a lot of fairly tough stuff, and that 4-slotted with obliteration bits, it's doing quite nicely indeed. (Aiming for 5-slot obliteration and an eradication quad.)
I loooove trip mine. It is a genuine competitor with caltrops for my affections, that is how awesome it is. |
I pretty much agree with this. I play Devices mostly because I like the theme (and Caltrops is awesome) but most of the other advantages of the set can be gained from pool powers/IOs.
I love the semi-control nature of the set; caltrops are one of my favorite powers ever, for instance.
IMHO most of the set stinks and is easily replaced by pool powers and either individual IOs or set bonuses. Stuff like Targeting Drone and Cloaking Device used to be great but are largely redundant these days. |
Targeting Drone is a good place to stick a Chance for Buildup proc. It's still not actual Buildup, but it's better than nothing. |
I really dislike the "spend ten minutes setting up for the next spawn" aspect of devices so I respec'ed out of Trip Mines. They're fine at what they do, but they impose a certain playstyle that I don't find congenial. Also, keep in mind that they are unaffected by your Targeting Drone (along with Time Bomb I believe- gee thanks devs!) so slot plenty of acc. |
Cloaking device, meh. I'd blow a few mil on a stealth IO and save the power choice. |
Time Bomb is hot garbage. It's a hidden dev IQ test- if you take Time Bomb they exclude you from future betas. =P |
Gun Drone's better than it used to be as Assault Turret, but it's still weak (especially with the OMG MUST CHARGE INTO MELEE bug affecting everyone's pets). The damage is laughable, but it does attract some aggro and the defiance boost is nice. Unfortunately it's laughably long, interruptible set up time and short duration mean I rarely bother with it. It is a nice place to stick an Expedient Reinforcement set, though. |
Huh...that ended up being more of a whine than a strategy guide....sorry Seebs! =P |
A /dev guide that doesn't warn you that the set relies on a play style that many people don't enjoy is a worthless guide to /dev, IMHO.
I love the semi-control nature of the set; caltrops are one of my favorite powers ever, for instance.
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TD is a fair hunk of +to-hit and also to-hit debuff resistance. |
See, I view this one exactly the opposite way. Cloaking device plus the stealth IO is amazing. Full invisibility is not just slightly better stealth; it's a complete change to how you can play. You have full control over positioning and setup, including being able to wander around mining things, search for the leader of a leader-and-guards quest, etcetera. |
Ahh, I see. Yeah, it would make sense to improve cloaking device in some way. Better defense, or a lower end cost (since, after all, it's just a device you're using), or something.
Same for TD; it would be nice if it were a bit better than it is.
Still, it's a fun set, and if you want to do a natural blaster (archery, AR, or DP probably), it's about the only secondary that makes any sense at all.
Ahh, I see. Yeah, it would make sense to improve cloaking device in some way. Better defense, or a lower end cost (since, after all, it's just a device you're using), or something.
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For TD I'd probably lower the To Hit buff somewhat and give it a damage buff as well, the idea being a Devices Blaster loses the ability to front load damage with build up but gains a more moderate continuous damage boost.
For CD I'd change the defense buff. Currently it provides 1.75% defense to all plus an additional 1.75% defense to all which is suppressed in combat (and therefore can be pretty much ignored). I favor changing this to a +5% buff to Ranged Defense only. This would provide a more noticeable defense buff (and one worth enhancing) while still keeping it low enough to avoid being game breaking (for comparison the S/L defense shields in epics provide 10.5% but have the opportunity cost of not being able to take a S/L resistance shield). Having it be ranged only reinforces the idea of Devices as secondary designed to keep foes at range through area denial (i.e. Caltrops, Trip Mine and the lack of melee attacks) while also preventing it from stacking with Frozen Armor or Scorpion Shield.
I would then seek to reinforce this idea by lowering the cast time of Trip Mine and making it uninterruptable as well as changing Time Bomb somehow (see my comments in your other thread). The net effect would be to encourage a style of play for Devices Blasters from "prep ahead of time" (which is not something the game really encourages) to a mobile Gurillea warfare style of play where the Blaster sets up a fighting position and when at risk of getting overrun falls back to open up the range and can quickly setup a new defensive line.
Eh, I can't see that ever happening to be honest and I also acknowledge that those changes would not necessarily appeal to everyone but that's my $0.02.
My main character is an energy/devices blaster at 44 and I'm a big fan of the set. For me, the hallmark of Devices is its versatility. It doesn't excel at any one thing in particular but it does provide you with a lot of options. For this reason, I consider it an excellent choice for solo blasters who have only themselves to rely on.
I agree with those who say it requires a patient, calculating playstyle, so it's not for everybody.
As others have stated, combining a stealth IO with Cloaking Device can be very effective. My character does this and things get interesting when fighting the Knives of Artemis. It feels like submarine warfare to me with stealthy adversaries hunting each other to see who can take out the other first.
Finally, placing Gaussian's Chance for Build Up IO in Targeting Drone can partially compensate for the lack of an actual Build Up power. Not as good as the real thing, but nice when it fires off.
IMHO most of the set stinks and is easily replaced by pool powers and either individual IOs or set bonuses. Stuff like Targeting Drone and Cloaking Device used to be great but are largely redundant these days.
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If you include the possibility of replacing the set's powers with temporary powers, you can include Smoke Grenade.
I would REALLY refrain from accusing people who pick certain powers of having a lower IQ when you start your message with such a blatantly ridiculous statement.
Though I do think this is useful information for seebs. A guide on /Devices should definitely include some of the halfbaked reasoning that people who hate on it use.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Only for Defenders. Corruptors and MMs do the same damage as Blasters with those powers
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Yeah the average damage that placing that proc in a toggle adds is really low . Of course, if you have the slot for it then it can't hurt. Leveraging the awesome Defiance numbers helps compensate as well.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Trip Mine: A decent damage power for the patient (especially if you've got a primary on the low end of the AoE damage scale). While it is possible to run into a pack and place a mine effectively acting as a Blapper it's not really playing to the strength of the rest of the set (although I know some people like doing it). Personally my preferred use is to drop one at my feet before engaging. This serves two purposes, first it provides a 26.4% defiance damage bonus and secondly the mine serves as a deterrent to melee oriented enemies.
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Personally, I find the "set ups" prone to hyperbole in how long it takes. The time's never bothered me much but your mileage may vary. The only time the set-up feels ridiculous is when I'm doing something ridiculous like laying down a giant mine field to lure an EB into.
Do you actually believe that Targetting Drone and Cloaking Device are "most of the set?" Or do you have a pool power/IO that can do what Web Grenade, Caltrops, Taser, Trip Mine, and Time Bomb, and Gun Drone can do?
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A good comparison is comparing a Devices Blaster to one with Ice Manipulation, the Leadership pool and either Super Seed or Stealth. Shiver and Ice Patch fill pretty much the same niche as Caltrops (and provide a little more damage mitigation which is fair enough since it's two powers). Freezing Touch is comparable to Taser (although from a leveling point of view it does come later). From the pools Tactics (plus a possible Kismet IO) covers most of the benefit of TD while Stealth or Super Speed covers the benefit of CD. Chillblain and Web Grenade are pretty comparable, the latter does have a better debuff but Ice Manipulation gets recharge debuffs from other powers so it actually has more overall and I'd consider it a wash.
Smoke Grenade is, admittedly, something the set doesn't have a direct counter. However, the perception debuff is largely situational (especially if you have full stealth) and while Chilling Embrace does provide comparable mitigation the short range makes it a bit iffy for me so I'll give the point to Devices.
At this point you're basically comparing Trip Mine, Time Bomb and Gun Drone to Build Up, Frozen Fists and Ice Sword. Now in terms of simple damage output Devices wins here for AoE and Ice wins against a single target. The problem is Build Up skews the AoE damage towards Ice (and the ST damage further towards Ice). Buoldup provides a 50% increase to damage (assuming ED slotting) which most Blasters will use to toss out their heaviest AoE attacks. In a lot of cases this renders additional AoE from Trip Mine/Time Bomb superfluous especially when you consider the long cast time for Trip Mine. Obviously for blast sets with lower AoE potential the fixed damage of Trip Mine is more useful but even there the long cast time hurts.
Play style > efficiency.
I love the semi-control nature of the set; caltrops are one of my favorite powers ever, for instance. |
>
Anyway, reader's digest version:
Do whatever you think is fun, I'm a disgruntled AR/Dev player from the dawn of time who remembers when it was a great combo so take my whining with a grain of salt.
Caltrops is all that and a side of fries and almost justifies the rest of the set.
If you like controller-y blasters, check out /ice. My absolute fave blaster is a fire/ice. Ice Patch is Caltrops-eque, and IMHO the rest of the set blows /dev out of the water.
My guy was a speedster, so the stacking stealth possibilities with CD were less appealing than they might have otherwise been.
My issue with trip mine and time bomb are not only playstyle related, but efficiency related- in the time it takes to lay down trops and plant a couple of mines I could have wiped out the spawn with my plethora of AoEs. Higher difficulty levels tilt the balance in favor of the explosives, and less AoE-centric sets may see things differently. But on standard difficulty Flamethrower/Shotgun/Full Auto carrying a decent load of Defiance makes short work of most things.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Personally, I find the "set ups" prone to hyperbole in how long it takes. The time's never bothered me much but your mileage may vary. The only time the set-up feels ridiculous is when I'm doing something ridiculous like laying down a giant mine field to lure an EB into.
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In my opinion Trip Mine suffers from the same basic problem as Snipe powers. They aren't inherently bad but due to the way powers work they are designed for a situation that isn't really that useful. The problem is that attack powers in this game are balanced primarily based on recharge and while that matters, activation time is more important.
As you and I both said the best use of Trip Mine is as a Defiance boost and a little close in defense. To me that says that something is wrong with the power.
D
I would REALLY refrain from accusing people who pick certain powers of having a lower IQ when you start your message with such a blatantly ridiculous statement. |
=P
is internet speak for "this is joke, don't take it seriously".
As for my review of the set, I stand by my statements.
/dev ranks dead last in my list of blaster secondaries from a performance standpoint and many of its best 'tricks' are readily replicated by pool powers and various permutations of the IO system.
A guide on /Devices should definitely include some of the halfbaked reasoning that people who hate on it use. |
If you enjoy it, great!
That doesn't make it good.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I think Goat's wording was poor. I hold a similar sentiment although I would phrase it as: "IMHO most of the useful functions of the set that aren't in other Blaster Secondaries are easily replaced by pool powers and either individual IOs or set bonuses. Stuff like Targeting Drone and Cloaking Device used to be great but are largely redundant these days."
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=)
At this point you're basically comparing Trip Mine, Time Bomb and Gun Drone to Build Up, Frozen Fists and Ice Sword. Now in terms of simple damage output Devices wins here for AoE and Ice wins against a single target. The problem is Build Up skews the AoE damage towards Ice (and the ST damage further towards Ice). Buoldup provides a 50% increase to damage (assuming ED slotting) which most Blasters will use to toss out their heaviest AoE attacks. In a lot of cases this renders additional AoE from Trip Mine/Time Bomb superfluous especially when you consider the long cast time for Trip Mine. Obviously for blast sets with lower AoE potential the fixed damage of Trip Mine is more useful but even there the long cast time hurts. |
Back in the day Targeting Drone letting you ignore accuracy in your powers and slot more damage made it a fair trade- you didn't get that burst, but you did appreciably more damage with your 'basic' attack chain. Perma-hasten +six slotted damage SOs hit HARD.
Nowadays, you're just taking a big performance hit with no compensation.
My fire/ice has some pretty great global recharge, and either aim or buildup is ready for every spawn. If I really want to vaporize something I can wait a few seconds until they're both up.
/dev has structural issues I wish they would address.
On the villain side I really like playing /traps and I'd like to see /dev get a makeover along those lines.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
is internet speak for "this is joke, don't take it seriously".
As for my review of the set, I stand by my statements. |
It's really funny to stand by the statement that 6 powers in a set that can in no way be replicated by IOs and power pools can in fact be. But, to each his own.
Well, if you've spent 63 months playing ar/dev then I'll concede you know far more about it. Only because you said "period" though.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
To some extent, it's true that the powers can be replicated -- but in some cases, at the cost of, say, an IO slot you could use elsewhere, or whatever.
I think TD loses a lot from the mix of ED and IO sets -- it's no longer hard to get all the +dmg you want without losing needed +accuracy.
On the villain side I really like playing /traps and I'd like to see /dev get a makeover along those lines.
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I think the phrase that best describes Traps is "operationally offensive, tactically defensive". It's designed to go to the enemy but then once there quickly set up a a defensive position from which to fight. Devices, on the other hand is purely defensive. You can setup fortification in the enemies face if you desire but doing so isn't fast and isn't particularly useful with Caltrops being the only power that really encourages the mentality.
I'm thinking to try to write a /dev guide. I love the power set. I have nrg/dev and dp/dev blasters, both of whom are fun for me. I'm not quite to 38 yet, but dp/dev just made 31, so I'm getting somewhere.
So, I seek comments to help fill in the gaps in my knowledge. What's awesome (or horrible) about /dev that really sticks out for you? What cool tips have you got? What synergies are there with various blast sets?