Give Stalkers unsuppressing stealth
By
BenRGamer,
Posted on: 2010-11-04 06:17 in Suggestions and Ideas
Don't forget Controllers with non-suppressing stealth.
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The simplest answer is that stalkers (and Widows) get an automatic critical when attacking out of stealth. The mobs can even be aware of you and you still get the critical, and long as you're still hidden.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It has always baffled me how Stalkers never really get any stealth powers with stealth components which don't suppress, yet Scrappers, Brutes and even Tankers do indeed get those.
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There would have to be a tradeoff. If you want your stealth to remain in place, you'd have to give up the automatic critical out of stealth. It's really that simple because otherwise stalkers are totally unbalanced.
Making such a change at this stage is unlikely because it's the core mechanic for the stalker. Most stalkers can two-shot bosses with build up, assassinate, placate and then their big damage attack that gets an automatic critical. Removing the crit from attacks out of Hide would make a lot of stalkers unhappy.
Widows have exactly the same setup as stalkers do with Mask Presence. They have a Placate power that turns their stealth back on. They don't have an assassinate, so they can't do quite the damage that stalkers can, but they can choose exactly when they can do a crit, unlike tankers, scrappers and brutes.
Stalkers are not supposed to play like scrappers with Hide. They are supposed to be stealthy stalkers that carefully sneak around and attack from the shadows, then flee back into them. They're not supposed to be invisible killing machines like in the Predator movies. Scrappers and brutes with Dark Armor and Energy Aura fill that role.
So basically what you're asking for is that Stalkers should never be able to aggro more than one enemy at a time? Can I have that on my Blasters and Corruptors, too?
More seriously, the reason a Stalker's Hide suppresses is because it gives outright perfect stealth. They become literally invisible. The enemies with the highest perception are Snipers with 149 Perception compared to a Stalker's 150 Stealth, so in other words, only enemies that outright ignore stealth can see a Stalker, of which there are only three in the entire game and two of them are incredibly rare.
Compare to most other stealth powers that only grant 35 stealth. The enemies with the lowest perception are Minions with 45 Perception, so there's no enemy a /Dark brute would be truly invisible to and since Brutes are melee toons, they'll probably stay in visible range to most enemies. Furthermore, since most brutes love aggro, and Taunts practically force enemies to go into melee range themselves, a decent Brute shouldn't have many problems to stay in visible range to enemies even with a stealth power.
And as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned? I have a hard time not getting plenty of aggro on my Dark Miasma Defender when teamin g up with my Scrapper buddy despite my stealth toggle. He's the main damage dealer and the guy who kills our enemies dead, but I still get half the aggro simply because I have a couple of AoE powers myself. I'm just gonna go ahead and doubt that a Defender is better at grabbing aggro than a Brute running into the middle of the mob and firing of a PBAoE and Taunt.
On the subject of anecdotes, some more info on yours would be nice. How large was the team? What size where the mobs you were fighting? Were you at the aggro cap, which naturally would make peeling off aggro from others quite a bit harder? Saying that Stalkers totally grab more aggro than Brutes because of one vague anecdote is hardly hard scientific evidence.
But even ignoring everything I said, my biggest problem with such a change is that Stalkers are basically designed to one-shot tough foes like bosses, or at least two-shot them while they're in DO-range. What that means is that a Stalker would grab aggro from an enemy that's already dead while the rest of the mob still ignores the Stalker. If you now keep in mind that unsuppressed Hide automatically soft-caps a Stalker to AoEs, they would become virtually unhittable and untargetable.
Do you really not think this is the slightest bit overpowered?
...Blasters do get Stealth in /Devices
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The OP was asking for unsuppressed stealth, not invisibility. This is present in other archetypes, most notably dark armor sets and Illusion control. Unsuppressed stealth means that nearby foes can see you, but not foes across the room. Take illusion control. It has superior invisibility, which cannot be seen by anything that doesn't ignore invisibility altogether. When it attacks, it stops being fully invisible, just stealthy. Near foes can see it, but not the next mob. So basically the suggestion is that stalkers would be invisible when 'hidden,' but only visible at closer range when not. Does that make sense? It does to me.
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
So basically what you're asking for is that Stalkers should never be able to aggro more than one enemy at a time? Can I have that on my Blasters and Corruptors, too?
More seriously, the reason a Stalker's Hide suppresses is because it gives outright perfect stealth. They become literally invisible. The enemies with the highest perception are Snipers with 149 Perception compared to a Stalker's 150 Stealth, so in other words, only enemies that outright ignore stealth can see a Stalker, of which there are only three in the entire game and two of them are incredibly rare. Compare to most other stealth powers that only grant 35 stealth. The enemies with the lowest perception are Minions with 45 Perception, so there's no enemy a /Dark brute would be truly invisible to and since Brutes are melee toons, they'll probably stay in visible range to most enemies. Furthermore, since most brutes love aggro, and Taunts practically force enemies to go into melee range themselves, a decent Brute shouldn't have many problems to stay in visible range to enemies even with a stealth power. And as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned? I have a hard time not getting plenty of aggro on my Dark Miasma Defender when teamin g up with my Scrapper buddy despite my stealth toggle. He's the main damage dealer and the guy who kills our enemies dead, but I still get half the aggro simply because I have a couple of AoE powers myself. I'm just gonna go ahead and doubt that a Defender is better at grabbing aggro than a Brute running into the middle of the mob and firing of a PBAoE and Taunt. On the subject of anecdotes, some more info on yours would be nice. How large was the team? What size where the mobs you were fighting? Were you at the aggro cap, which naturally would make peeling off aggro from others quite a bit harder? Saying that Stalkers totally grab more aggro than Brutes because of one vague anecdote is hardly hard scientific evidence. But even ignoring everything I said, my biggest problem with such a change is that Stalkers are basically designed to one-shot tough foes like bosses, or at least two-shot them while they're in DO-range. What that means is that a Stalker would grab aggro from an enemy that's already dead while the rest of the mob still ignores the Stalker. If you now keep in mind that unsuppressed Hide automatically soft-caps a Stalker to AoEs, they would become virtually unhittable and untargetable. Do you really not think this is the slightest bit overpowered? |
You been playing Stalkers lately, Sam? Or maybe just teaming with a few 
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Not really true. Granted, Sam asking for Hide to provide perfect invisibility and never suppress is kind of ludicrous, it wouldn't really unbalance the AT besides giving them the freedom to fight while foes are nearby.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The simplest answer is that stalkers (and Widows) get an automatic critical when attacking out of stealth. The mobs can even be aware of you and you still get the critical, and long as you're still hidden.
There would have to be a tradeoff. If you want your stealth to remain in place, you'd have to give up the automatic critical out of stealth. It's really that simple because otherwise stalkers are totally unbalanced. |
Back to the OP's suggestion, no, Hide *should* suppress. It's too good not to. However, if a *portion* of Hide suppressed while the rest remained, I can see that being more fair.
I'd suggest something like:
Hide-
+100 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 8 seconds (Always)
+50 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 10 seconds (Always)
Basically, it has 2 layers of stacking stealth, one that never suppresses (unless you click a glowie) and the other that suppresses when you attack/are attacked/click a glowie.
I'd suggest it be a bit longer range than the range of powers like Cloak of Darkness, only because sometimes, as a Stalker, you want to try and grab the aggro of nearby foes in a spawn, just not things outside that spawn...
Another point not hit on is
Hide- Translucency +0.15 for 0.75s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 8 seconds (Always)
and
Energy Cloak Translucency +0.1 for 120s [Non-resistable]
If we're going to be making unsuppressed stealth in Hide, I'd like it if the translucence still suppressed like it does now (so I can still see my character in combat) as well as suppressing the translucence of EC so I can see my EA brute mid combat. This suggestion is purely cosmetic and has no affect on balance but it'd be nice to have the chance to see characters through their unsuppressing stealth. Not sure about Cloak of Darkness (as I only have a DA stalker currently) but redtomax says that power doesn't grant translucency so not sure...
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... except for a few things:|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Consider a Dark Armour Stalker and a Dark Armour Brute. When the Stalker attacks, his stealth drops, his model becomes visible and everyone for miles immediately spots him and aggroes on him. When the Brute attacks, his stealth remains firm, and the only enemies who attack him are those he directly aggroed, which are usually just those he directly attacked.
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1. That stealth gives a guaranteed crit to most attacks, and a massive damage boost to Assassin's Strike,
2. That AS, if it lands, has a chance (and in experience a pretty good one) to land an AOE fear on the rest of the mobs,
3. Hide costs 0 end to run, and
4. Hide does not break if the AS misses.
5. Plus it returns faster, with Hidden status, much faster now, AND
6. Stalkers have at least one Placate (/Nin getting other options as well.)
Numbers 2-5 are part of a *huge* buff Stalkers got a little while back. I don't see them getting unsuppressed Stealth. That would, IMHO, just be broken. Yes, even just in PVE. (And that doesn't go into the good AOE defense while in Hide.)
there are two kinds of stealth in the game
kmeter stealth that Stalkers,Widows,Banes and certain NPC mobs have
then there's normal stealth Energy Aura,Dark Armour,Illusion,Concealment,Devices etc.
What the OP is asking for is for Stalker stealth to become a combination of kmeter and normal stealth
currently kmeter stealth determines everything for stalkers
if it were a combination of kmeter and normal
the normal stealth would be the one that doesn't suppress in combat
so unaggroed mobs wouldn't see the stalker (the same benefit other stealth powers have) that's all the op is asking for, this wouldn't effect the stalkers crits or +def
You can have a stealth radius on a Stalker without being in hidden status. It's the kMeter that gives you that status, and that's what gives the criticals and everything else.
The part of Hide that affects Hidden status isn't the stealth radius, it's this part here:
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The proposal seems to be to leave this suppression in place, and remove it from the 150' PvE Stealth radius (and, potentially far more controversially, the 500' PvP Stealth radius).|
Meter +1 for 0.75s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster Suppressed when Attacked, for 8 seconds (Always) Suppressed when Damaged, for 8 seconds (Always) Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 8 seconds (Always) |
Given that the hidden status is separate from the stealth, the objections due to "the benefits that Hide provides" so far in the thread aren't really valid reasons. The concerns about about allowing Stalkers far more control over their aggro generation - similar to that enjoyed by Illusion Controllers running Superior Invisibility - are valid but purely opinion as to whether or not it's overpowered; after all, Controllers can already do this (although their pets can often pull extra aggro). No other AT that has unsuppressed stealth has more than 35', so they can still get accidental aggro from overlapping spawns, although they are far more unlikely to do so than anyone without it; with the proposed change a Stalker would only ever get that accidental aggro from AoEs (including Demoralize).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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This is something people keep mistaking. Stealth doesn't give a guaranteed critical, the 'Hidden Status' does which is linked to a mechanic called kmeter. Look up Hide, the Stealth pool power and Placate. Notice how 2 of those give a +1 meter to self (Hint: it's not the Stealth pool or *any* other powers in the game except Frenzy).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... except for a few things:
1. That stealth gives a guaranteed crit to most attacks, and a massive damage boost to Assassin's Strike, |
As for Hide costing no endurance, consider it equality for what the AT gives up in exchange (Quick Recovery, Resist Passive, and the like) for a power integral to the AT.
The other things have zero bearing on the Hide power or balance regarding unsuppressed stealth radius on Stalkers.
And just to point out preemptively, all the effects of Hide (and many other powers) can be altered and affected separately, i.e. the +defense that Hide grants is not linked to 'stealth' and suppresses by itself if attacking or hit, the kmeter is not linked to the defense, stealth *or* the power Hide, at all and is simply a buff granted by hide and placate which suppresses on its own too, that AS doesn't drop hide is linked to AS not alerting the foe on a miss and not the power Hide or any of the effects that toggle grant, etc.
That said, now where do you guys stand on the proposal?
I could go with it. To me I would view it as more of a QOL change, not a buff. It just makes the one AT that specializes in not beeing seen, able to not be seen at a long distance when attacking. That was one of the things I loved about my /dark scrapper. If 2 spawns were close to each other, I would not have to worry about having to try and pull one away from the other.
I really don't think adding that to all stalkers would break anything.
I thought I talked about the difference between stealth radius and the Hidden status in the original post, but I probably should have made it more prominent. That said, others have already recovered the difference very well.
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Playing a few, and looking to play more. I want to expand my horizons as much as I can, and Stalkers are a prime target, being capable soloists, pretty strong when used right and without any staggeringly crippling weaknesses that I could determine. I want this for myself, yes |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You been playing Stalkers lately, Sam? Or maybe just teaming with a few
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| Back to the OP's suggestion, no, Hide *should* suppress. It's too good not to. However, if a *portion* of Hide suppressed while the rest remained, I can see that being more fair. |
Having "most" of their invisibility suppress is a good way to go about it. Even if their Hide drops down to 35 feet of stealth radius when exposed, that would still be better than nothing. It would allow them to ply their trade QUIETLY like they should, and it should give Stalkers on teams just a smidgen more freedom of movement.
SOME USEFUL INFO:
I keep hearing how unsuppressing stealth would make Stalkers only ever aggro one target. This is not true. Most spawns in the game have some degree of chain aggro. If you attack one enemy in a spawn, the others will likely notice. If you kill one enemy in a spawn, the others will almost always notice. This puts aggro on the Stalker, and thereafter makes stealth meaningless against the enemies in question. Stealth does not guarantee fighting fewer enemies in a spawn. It guarantees fighting fewer spawns at once, which Stalkers really ought to be good at.
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| If we're going to be making unsuppressed stealth in Hide, I'd like it if the translucence still suppressed like it does now (so I can still see my character in combat) as well as suppressing the translucence of EC so I can see my EA brute mid combat. This suggestion is purely cosmetic and has no affect on balance but it'd be nice to have the chance to see characters through their unsuppressing stealth. Not sure about Cloak of Darkness (as I only have a DA stalker currently) but redtomax says that power doesn't grant translucency so not sure... |
And, yes, very much add such an option for Energy Cloak. I don't understand why that was left out when Cloak of Darkness was given its No Fade or Pulse option.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It has always baffled me how Stalkers never really get any stealth powers with stealth components which don't suppress, yet Scrappers, Brutes and even Tankers do indeed get those.
Consider a Dark Armour Stalker and a Dark Armour Brute. When the Stalker attacks, his stealth drops, his model becomes visible and everyone for miles immediately spots him and aggroes on him. When the Brute attacks, his stealth remains firm, and the only enemies who attack him are those he directly aggroed, which are usually just those he directly attacked. This is often just part of the spawn - those damaged and those nearby. Even if the entire spawn becomes aware of the Brute via spawn aggro, nearby spawns that are well close enough to see the Brute normally still don't aggro, because the Brute is still stealthed. When the Stalker does this, on the other hand, he lights up like a Christmas tree and EVERYONE sees him.
I honestly feel that the stealth component of Hide powers should not suppress, at least not in PvE. I'm not talking about the Hidden status that allows you to deal double damage. That's completely unrelated to the character's actual stealth radius (you can be hidden and not stealthed and stealthed but not hidden). That's fine as it is. What I'm talking about is just the stealthed status. I don't want my Brutes to be more sneaky than my Stalkers. In fact, let's get some actual data.
City of Data lists Stalker -> Dark Armour -> Hide's stealth effect as:
+150 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 8 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 8 seconds (Always)
If I read this correctly, this suppresses when you attack, when you take damage and when you click a glowie. By contrast, City of Data lists Brute -> Dark Armour -> Cloak of Darkness as:
+35 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 10 seconds (Always)
Granted that's significantly less stealth, but this is stealth that is always on. It only ever suppresses when you click a glowie, like all stealth does, but you'll note it remains in full force when you attack and when you are hit. What this means is that, even if you're fighting a heated battle, you will remain stealthed until you are done. Well, unless you decide to click an objective mid-fight.
The reason I'm saying this is because it's patently ridiculous to team a Dark Armour or Energy Aura Brute with ANY kind of Stalker. Brutes seem designed to attract aggro with taunt auras and taunts on every attack, yet my Energy/Energy Brute was practically incapable of stripping aggro from the Ninja/Ninja Stalker I was playing with unless I dropped Energy Cloak entirely. I had to go punch every enemy in the face separately in order to achieve what the Stalker achieved JUST by using Assassin's Strike and popping up to everyone for miles around. Why?
I would honestly like to see Stalker Hide's stealth component be made unsuppressible in PvE, at least. Enemies you attack will still aggro on you, and once they do, stealth against them doesn't matter. But enemies you HAVEN'T aggroed yet will still remain unaware, allowing you to, say, pick off one spawn while another spawn too close to engage remains oblivious to you. Shouldn't NOT becoming instantly obvious to absolutely everyone in the room be part of what a Stalker is?
It's just odd that my Sword/Dark Scrapper is better at staying hidden and fighting fewer enemies at a time than my Sword/SR Stalker. In essence, my Stalker is forced into scrapping MORE than the actual Scrapper.