Tabletop games: let's play them.
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-10-13 01:19 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Quote:
I ran a more or less weekly D&D4e game for several months using Skype and MapTool. MapTool changes the DMing process: it requires more initial setup time, but once the DM and players are familiar with the tool the actual gaming proceeds at a somewhat brisker pace, with less consultation of rulebooks and mental arithmetic. Also, as you build up an asset library of frameworks, macros, tokens, textures and maps, and become familiar with the process of generating content, the setup time is reduced. I would recommend MapTool (and the rest of the RPTools.net family of programs) for anyone who wants to run tactical RPGs with a widely distributed group of players. It works and it's fun.
|
Originally Posted by RaiderRich2001
Does anyone else here play over Ventrilo or Skype? I've been recently introduced to this method of RPG gaming via The Spoony Experiment forums.
|
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
I used to have one of the players in my home game playing over Skype. We had a web cam focused on the battle map (3.5 D&D game), and we all could hear him just fine. He wasn't able to come over because he wife worked nights and he had to watch the kids. It all worked out well enough. He eventually dropped out though.
|
Originally Posted by RaiderRich2001
2) Does anyone else here play over Ventrilo or Skype? I've been recently introduced to this method of RPG gaming via The Spoony Experiment forums.
|
Too many alts to list.
I was going to throw my hat in the ring to participate in this experiment, but after seeing how quickly it devolved into an argument about the philosophy of character generation, I think I'll stick with online gaming. At least then, if someone is a jerkwad I can copy and paste the interaction into the Rude tells thread for everyone to enjoy.
[SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow][U]Virtue Heroes (Serenity's Children):[/U] [B]@Eek a Mouse, The Devil's Mark, Outlaw Sniper, Gas-Soaked Rag Man, Amazon Prime, Friday's Child, Hot Blooded,[/B][B]Flower of the Moon[/B], [B]Rouge Demon Hunter[/B], Stimulated Emission, Animatronic Wench, [B]Lennie Small[/B]
[U]Virtue Villains (Serenity's Orphans):[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow] [/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow] [B]Eek a Rat[/B], [B]Bomb Blondeshell[/B], Babe Brute, Jeanne Dark, Fallen Angle[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Quote:
That's a thought. We have a player with a wife and a little army of his own.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
I used to have one of the players in my home game playing over Skype. We had a web cam focused on the battle map (3.5 D&D game), and we all could hear him just fine. He wasn't able to come over because he wife worked nights and he had to watch the kids. It all worked out well enough. He eventually dropped out though.
|
And for what it's worth, the same guy "borrowed" a projector from the school he teaches at, and uses it to, ah, project a battlemap program from his laptop onto a wall. It's a neat way to do combat, especially large scale, if you have access to that sort of equipment.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Quote:
Yes, because any form of disagreement is automatically a flamewar, and arguments on the internet mean that real-life interaction is bad.
|
Originally Posted by Eek a Mouse
I was going to throw my hat in the ring to participate in this experiment, but after seeing how quickly it devolved into an argument about the philosophy of character generation, I think I'll stick with online gaming. At least then, if someone is a jerkwad I can copy and paste the interaction into the Rude tells thread for everyone to enjoy.
|
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
I know who John Wick is, and what he contributed to the RPG hobby.
That said, I still don't give two craps about his judgments on different types of roleplaying games. They're his opinion.
I also don't happen to necessarily place that much credence to the opinions of the folks on RPG.net any more than I do for any other gaming group. There are far, far more roleplayers NOT on that forum than participate there.
I will furthermore ask, why the hell would I need a special set of rules to create my character's backstory? To me it's a crutch, not an aid. It's also why I have never ever purchased any of those "character creation aid" books or guides that purport to help you round out your character. To me they make for lazy roleplaying.
Take away the books, the dice, the paper and pencils, and as long as I can communicate I'm still a roleplayer.
That a set of rules has sections to codify character backgrounds and other life experiences is not a metric of a good roleplaying game to me. It's that the rules are clear, provide a logical mechanical framework to resolve conflicts without getting in the way, and have an interesting setting attached.
I can provide the rest.
Or as my cousin once said, "Shut up about the damn rules and PLAY, asscake."
-k
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
Quote:
Not everyone is a naturally good roleplayer.|
Originally Posted by NinjaPirate
I know who John Wick is, and what he contributed to the RPG hobby.
That said, I still don't give two craps about his judgments on different types of roleplaying games. They're his opinion. I also don't happen to necessarily place that much credence to the opinions of the folks on RPG.net any more than I do for any other gaming group. There are far, far more roleplayers NOT on that forum than participate there. I will furthermore ask, why the hell would I need a special set of rules to create my character's backstory? To me it's a crutch, not an aid. It's also why I have never ever purchased any of those "character creation aid" books or guides that purport to help you round out your character. To me they make for lazy roleplaying. Take away the books, the dice, the paper and pencils, and as long as I can communicate I'm still a roleplayer. That a set of rules has sections to codify character backgrounds and other life experiences is not a metric of a good roleplaying game to me. It's that the rules are clear, provide a logical mechanical framework to resolve conflicts without getting in the way, and have an interesting setting attached. I can provide the rest. Or as my cousin once said, "Shut up about the damn rules and PLAY, asscake." -k |
Check and mate.
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
Then it falls on those who are, to teach.
Having them rely on rules to determine their character backgrounds and motivations, is crippling them with a crutch.
And no, I don't believe in training wheels for bikes, either.
-k
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
Quote:
So if an entire group of non-roleplayers wanted to try their hand at roleplaying, your view is that they can go suck eggs?|
Originally Posted by NinjaPirate
Then it falls on those who are, to teach.
Having them rely on rules to determine their character backgrounds and motivations, is crippling them with a crutch. And no, I don't believe in training wheels for bikes, either. -k |
Well, that explains the lack of new players these days.
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
You did note the "those who can, teach" bit of my earlier post, yes?
I take a very active role in promoting gaming in my area. Running games, hell, running conventions, coordinating groups, etc. Was even the rules adjudicator for a national RPG "living" campaign for a couple of years. That slightly crazed guy dragging himself out of his hotel room at 6 in the morning to make sure the Sunday slots go off, after having run 30 some hours of games the previous three days at the convention? Yeah, that was me.
I just don't think "roleplaying" is something that needs a ton of book rules. And to judge a game by the presence or absence of such rules is silly.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
Sometimes people cannot be taught how to do something that comes naturally to others.
Case in point, a great friend in our original Call of Cthulhu game. He always - always - played soldier types, didn't matter WHAT system it was. We tried getting him to do new things, he was just *not with it*.
And I'm actually quite the opposite of the "throw away the generators" - I LOVE them, because they make my mind squirm around HOW this character gets that item or WHY they lost their love interest. It makes for far more fun in the long run for me personally. I don't think it's lazy, I do however think that it's necessary for some folks who just do NOT understand the how's or why's of their own character. To a lot of people, as long as they have a gun and count their bullets, or whatever, they're HAPPY.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
Quote:
Yes, but introducing a new set of rules for the twinks to twink doesn't make for a roleplayer either. |
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Not everyone is a naturally good roleplayer.
Check and mate. |
While I don't particularly mind the existence of systems which allow for mechanical creation of character background, I dislike systems which provide for a mechanical bonus for roleplaying. People will either role play their character or roll play it. The rules in question don't make a hell of a difference (in my experience). It's all on the player.
A twink in a 'roleplaying' oriented game will just find a way to game that system to his advantage.
Like Ninja Pirate says, a logical and consistent framework for the resolution of actions in the game is more important than rules that try to shoehorn people into roleplaying.
I run a living campaign at the conventions in my area which uses a modification of the Spycraft system (220). You won't find many people who will go on about the wonders of roleplaying in a d20 system, but the roleplaying I get at my tables is great, and the campaign is known for it.
Good players and GMs make for good roleplaying. Rules do not.
I suppose I better put a big IMO around here somewhere or you'll try and cite some 'expert' and 'consensus' on why I'm wrong or something.
Too many alts to list.
Quote:
This is the method I tend to go for in systems where character abilities aren't heavily tied to their backstory. In my experience, it tends to make more organic-feeling characters in the long run. Rather than detailing out four paragraphs describing how the character got along with their parents, figure out what feels best if and when it comes up. Really, you have to do this to some extent anyway, since you can't formally write out every minute of the character's life previous to the start of the game.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
These days, I prefer to leave my character's history a little open ended. If I need some background information during the game that I didn't already think of during character creation, I'll just ad-lib it as I go.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RaiderRich2001
Has anyone here ever tried to adapt the City of Heroes universe for another superhero system (Hero System, Mutants and Masterminds 2E, GURPS, etc?) I'm looking for ways to do that since the CoH PnP is pretty much vaporware.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
To be quite honest, things like MMOs are in some ways beneficial to tabletop RPGs. They get people shallowly into the concept of role playing, and if their appetite gets whetted and wish to explore the experience in more depth, with more human interaction, they head for cons, game stores, and home games.
|
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Quote:
Hiding behind the word "opinion" isn't a defense against being wrong.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Yes, but introducing a new set of rules for the twinks to twink doesn't make for a roleplayer either.
While I don't particularly mind the existence of systems which allow for mechanical creation of character background, I dislike systems which provide for a mechanical bonus for roleplaying. People will either role play their character or roll play it. The rules in question don't make a hell of a difference (in my experience). It's all on the player. A twink in a 'roleplaying' oriented game will just find a way to game that system to his advantage. Like Ninja Pirate says, a logical and consistent framework for the resolution of actions in the game is more important than rules that try to shoehorn people into roleplaying. I run a living campaign at the conventions in my area which uses a modification of the Spycraft system (220). You won't find many people who will go on about the wonders of roleplaying in a d20 system, but the roleplaying I get at my tables is great, and the campaign is known for it. Good players and GMs make for good roleplaying. Rules do not. I suppose I better put a big IMO around here somewhere or you'll try and cite some 'expert' and 'consensus' on why I'm wrong or something. |
Every game system incentivizes certain patterns of behavior through its language and content. While playtesting 7th Sea, John Wick saw that combat just devolved into the usual Punch and Judy show of "I stand there and hit him," despite the characters being able to swing on chandeliers, jump over tables, and do the usual swashbuckly things. John Wick rewrote the combat rules to specifically mention all the crazy maneuvers you can do, rather than leave them implied (by their presence as skills). Suddenly, the players were having their characters jump and swing all over the place in combat, because they had never thought to try it until they were told that they could.
Similarly, many RPG systems have roleplaying aids in their rules in order to incentivize more and better roleplaying.
Take a group of average tabletop gamers. Have them play D&D. Then have them play Houses of the Blooded. 12 times out of 10, they'll roleplay more during Houses of the Blooded, because Houses of the Blooded encourages roleplaying.
Also, I don't see how you can get so worked up at 7th Sea's Backgrounds. News flash: Backgrounds are the worst thing you can spend points on at character creation if you want more plusses, a twinker would just take more Advantages. Backgrounds are a lot of risk for not much reward (maybe an extra point of experience every other session), their sole appeal is for roleplayers, the extra experience is there so that the player doesn't feel like he wasted his character points (which are spent to make sure the player is committed to his subplot, because the GM then has to work it into the campaign).
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
Quote:
I didn't call it a flamewar. I said that it devolved into an argument about the philosophy of character generation. That doesn't interest me in the least. I'm not a big roleplayer, and rarely bother with my characters' backstory. So I won't bother. I'll play an online game where I can just play the game.|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Yes, because any form of disagreement is automatically a flamewar, and arguments on the internet mean that real-life interaction is bad.
|
I shouldn't have even read the thread, I guess. I saw "Tabletop games" in the title and thought of military games like Squad Leader or board games like Settlers of Catan, Carcassonne, Railroad Tycoon, and Betrayal at House on The Hill. I've always called RPGs "pen and paper games".
[SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow][U]Virtue Heroes (Serenity's Children):[/U] [B]@Eek a Mouse, The Devil's Mark, Outlaw Sniper, Gas-Soaked Rag Man, Amazon Prime, Friday's Child, Hot Blooded,[/B][B]Flower of the Moon[/B], [B]Rouge Demon Hunter[/B], Stimulated Emission, Animatronic Wench, [B]Lennie Small[/B]
[U]Virtue Villains (Serenity's Orphans):[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow] [/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow] [B]Eek a Rat[/B], [B]Bomb Blondeshell[/B], Babe Brute, Jeanne Dark, Fallen Angle[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Quote:
|../\|
Originally Posted by ninjapirate
or as my cousin once said, "shut up about the damn rules and play, asscake."
|
../||\
./.||.\
/..||..\
...||
...||
...||
...||
.............1111
............11111
....+.........111
..+++.......111
....+.........111
...............111
............1111111
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Quote:
My gods, man. You remind me of two friends of mine who got into a fist-fight over whether a short sword was a medium or small weapon in D&D 2nd ed.
|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Not everyone is a naturally good roleplayer.
Check and mate. |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Quote:
Because minor rules dispute=debate on the basic philosophies of RPG design and roleplaying culture in general.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
My gods, man. You remind me of two friends of mine who got into a fist-fight over whether a short sword was a medium or small weapon in D&D 2nd ed.
|
Now that is reductio ad absurdum.
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
Quote:
For what it's worth, there were a few mentions of miniatures games in the first few pages before we got derailed arguing over somethingerother.
|
Originally Posted by Eek a Mouse
...I shouldn't have even read the thread, I guess. I saw "Tabletop games" in the title and thought of military games like Squad Leader or board games like Settlers of Catan, Carcassonne, Railroad Tycoon, and Betrayal at House on The Hill. I've always called RPGs "pen and paper games".
|
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Well, this thread's really an all-purpose thread for gathering people to game, it doesn't matter if they want a no-holds-barred RIFTS/Synnibar crossover or Tiddly-Winks, it's all tabletop gaming.
The argument is just keeping it on the front page.
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
You know what, we need to get a vent or skype game going for those of us on the forum. D&D, M&M, Hero, GURPS, I don't care.
My Blogs on TGWTG.com
Angels of Wrath/Evilnighters/Legion of Catgirls
Mission Arc: #352860 - RJ The Road Dog: Big Trouble in Little Tokyo
Yes, we've covered that, that's a nice idea, but this is mostly me, having noticed a disproportionate number of people from Arizona on the boards, trying to get a few of them to play with me around an actual table, because games over the internet are not nearly as much fun.
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
[URL="http://paragonunleashed.proboards.com/index.cgi"][IMG]http://gamefacelive.com/bre/joker.png[/IMG][/URL]
Quote:
The inability to understand that people might hold a different opinion than your own doesn't excuse your fetish with labeling people wrong. |
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Hiding behind the word "opinion" isn't a defense against being wrong.
|
I'm not going to play logical fallacies like you do and try to claim you're wrong. You have an opinion, and I don't agree. That ends it.
Quote:
| Every game system incentivizes certain patterns of behavior through its language and content. While playtesting 7th Sea, John Wick saw that combat just devolved into the usual Punch and Judy show of "I stand there and hit him," despite the characters being able to swing on chandeliers, jump over tables, and do the usual swashbuckly things. John Wick rewrote the combat rules to specifically mention all the crazy maneuvers you can do, rather than leave them implied (by their presence as skills). Suddenly, the players were having their characters jump and swing all over the place in combat, because they had never thought to try it until they were told that they could. |
I don't particularly care what Mr. Wick thinks to be blunt. He offers a game (or a number of games rather) which doesn't appeal to me. He thinks players need to be prodded into playing the way he wants them to. Good for him.
Quote:
| Similarly, many RPG systems have roleplaying aids in their rules in order to incentivize more and better roleplaying. |
Quote:
| Take a group of average tabletop gamers. Have them play D&D. Then have them play Houses of the Blooded. 12 times out of 10, they'll roleplay more during Houses of the Blooded, because Houses of the Blooded encourages roleplaying. |
The truth is, systems you are talking about are just as much a mechanical gamist creation as 4th edition. They might be encouraging different outcomes (tactical boardgame, vs. forced role play), but nonetheless they are not simply world simulators. I prefer world simulators and then the action proceeds as a consequence of what the GM and players do, not what they are led to do.
Quote:
| Also, I don't see how you can get so worked up at 7th Sea's Backgrounds. News flash: Backgrounds are the worst thing you can spend points on at character creation if you want more plusses, a twinker would just take more Advantages. Backgrounds are a lot of risk for not much reward (maybe an extra point of experience every other session), their sole appeal is for roleplayers, the extra experience is there so that the player doesn't feel like he wasted his character points (which are spent to make sure the player is committed to his subplot, because the GM then has to work it into the campaign). |
As I have said before, I have seen plenty of role playing in systems which are allegedly not conducive to role playing, and I've seen people with all the personality and animation of a stump playing in games which mechanically try to force all kinds of role play.
Maybe someone new to the system will need to have the crutches of a mechanical roleplay system to get into the genre, but I think a mentor showing the way works better.
You are falling into a trap. You are taking up the banner (which is common to rpg.net) that role players are superior to roll players. They are not. They are just different categories of people who like to play in that genre of games. Neither is superior, and as long as they are having fun the way they like to, all is fine.
Too many alts to list.
Quote:
Ah, yes indeed. The old Stormwind Fallacy.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
You are falling into a trap. You are taking up the banner (which is common to rpg.net) that role players are superior to roll players. They are not. They are just different categories of people who like to play in that genre of games. Neither is superior, and as long as they are having fun the way they like to, all is fine.
|
-k
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
But as someone who has been involved in organizing some of those conventions with declining membership, I have to say that the economy has LOTS to do with the declining amount of money spent on things that can be considered "extra" like purchasing new games and more importantly, attending conventions - which can easily cost a single person a few hundred dollars (depending upon hotel expenses mainly), let alone those with families who may want to attend.
When you are worried about making rent or the mortgage payment, spending $40 or more on a hardback game book or $200-300 on attending a convention are generally one of the first things to go. But if you are a gamer who enjoys tabletop games - that just means you go back to what you already have sitting on your shelf, be it Vampire: the Masquerade or DnD 3.5 or whatever.
This is certainly true. Tabletop gaming had been doing pretty well until the recession's impact hit the scene. I go to my local cons every year (two of them), and they had been growing in size up to about two years ago. This does not indicated the death of tabletop RPGs.
To be quite honest, things like MMOs are in some ways beneficial to tabletop RPGs. They get people shallowly into the concept of role playing, and if their appetite gets whetted and wish to explore the experience in more depth, with more human interaction, they head for cons, game stores, and home games.
Too many alts to list.