The tutorial does need the same big red "This mission can only be completed solo" warning as the rest of the Praetorian solo-only missions. You would be surprised how frustrated a permanent duo can get when it's not informed it needs to work on its own.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
I still think that Praetorian morality missions should be handled more like the other Morality missions we have, which is to say you should be allowed to pick your side BEFORE you start the mission, as part of a dialogue tree or a tip alignment selector.
The reason I say this is because of how these missions are presented. Aside from the tutorial, Praetorian alignment missions are not, in fact, missions in the traditional sense. There isn't a whole mission you have to fight through to make a decision at the end. You enter the mission, walk through some empty hallways and are presented with a choice with slight narration.
Why can this not be done in the contact window beforehand? It's not like the mission shows you anything unusual. Blowing up the Enriche plant just puts you in a stock Resistance room with bombs stacked around, and you're asked what to do. Why could I not have made that choice beforehand? Say in the following manner:
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You were more or less ordered to destroy Praetoria's Enriche plant in an effort to free people from the drug's mind control effect. The Dark Watcher was very specific that neither Vanguard nor Longbow have the resources to fight a public relations war. Given their performance so far, you wouldn't want them to try, anyway. However, the Enriche plant is built into the Praetora City main water treatment centre and only source of drinkable, non-polluting water. Yes, the citizens would be free from control, but they would have no drinkable water for months.
On the one hand, the Enriche plant HAS to be destroyed in order for this war to be won. Open rebellion is the only way to topple Cole's regime, and this will never happen as long as people's minds are clouded and their will suppressed. So what if they have to subsist on toxic water for a while? We all have to make sacrifices, and Vanguard will set up a fresh water system for them within a few months, anyway. This war cannot be won by shying away from the dangerous decisions.
On the other hand, the war effort is going well enough at present. The Resistance are winning over people's hearts even despite Enriche's control. Perhaps this is going too far. There is no question that Cole's regime must go down, but you must also ensure that there is a Praetoria left to save at the end of the day. Further sacrifices, especially on this scale, aren't necessary right now. The people's will can wait until their survival is first ensured.
Resistance: Destroy the Enriche plant.
Loyalists: Betray Calvin Scott and stop him from destroying the Enriche plant.
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Other than Calvin's little soliloquy, what difference does it make whether this is written to you in caption boxes with emblems on them, or whether it's given to you in the pre-mission briefing? What do we stand to benefit from having these choices done in the actual instances?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In my opinion it takes away from the story and disrupts immersion. It's like reading the end of a mystery first and learning who done it before reading the entire book. The book may stll be well written but the suspense is gone.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I still think that Praetorian morality missions should be handled more like the other Morality missions we have, which is to say you should be allowed to pick your side BEFORE you start the mission, as part of a dialogue tree or a tip alignment selector.
The reason I say this is because of how these missions are presented. Aside from the tutorial, Praetorian alignment missions are not, in fact, missions in the traditional sense. There isn't a whole mission you have to fight through to make a decision at the end. You enter the mission, walk through some empty hallways and are presented with a choice with slight narration. Why can this not be done in the contact window beforehand? It's not like the mission shows you anything unusual. Blowing up the Enriche plant just puts you in a stock Resistance room with bombs stacked around, and you're asked what to do. Why could I not have made that choice beforehand? Say in the following manner: --- You were more or less ordered to destroy Praetoria's Enriche plant in an effort to free people from the drug's mind control effect. The Dark Watcher was very specific that neither Vanguard nor Longbow have the resources to fight a public relations war. Given their performance so far, you wouldn't want them to try, anyway. However, the Enriche plant is built into the Praetora City main water treatment centre and only source of drinkable, non-polluting water. Yes, the citizens would be free from control, but they would have no drinkable water for months. On the one hand, the Enriche plant HAS to be destroyed in order for this war to be won. Open rebellion is the only way to topple Cole's regime, and this will never happen as long as people's minds are clouded and their will suppressed. So what if they have to subsist on toxic water for a while? We all have to make sacrifices, and Vanguard will set up a fresh water system for them within a few months, anyway. This war cannot be won by shying away from the dangerous decisions. On the other hand, the war effort is going well enough at present. The Resistance are winning over people's hearts even despite Enriche's control. Perhaps this is going too far. There is no question that Cole's regime must go down, but you must also ensure that there is a Praetoria left to save at the end of the day. Further sacrifices, especially on this scale, aren't necessary right now. The people's will can wait until their survival is first ensured. Resistance: Destroy the Enriche plant. Loyalists: Betray Calvin Scott and stop him from destroying the Enriche plant. --- Other than Calvin's little soliloquy, what difference does it make whether this is written to you in caption boxes with emblems on them, or whether it's given to you in the pre-mission briefing? What do we stand to benefit from having these choices done in the actual instances? |
If someone prefers draining all the color and life out of the game they can go hang out in the AE and run farms where they know exactly what will happen before they start the mission.
Personally, I think it should have been the other way around--that is, Morality missions should be like the Loyalist/Resistance choice missions.
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Immersion? It feels more "real" in the sense that the choice isn't just laid out in front of me before I even get to the point in the mission. And not all missions are laid out as you described. Several of them do have actual combat in them before your make your choice, and I've even been influenced to make a choice based on the dialog during the cut scenes / mission before. It would suck to make a relatively uninformed choice of siding with Cleo without hearing her lie to your face about trying to kill you.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What do we stand to benefit from having these choices done in the actual instances?
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That's what I'm saying, there is "no point in the mission" at which this happens. It happens RIGHT AT THE START. What difference does it make whether it happens before the zone load or after it? Either way, it's still the narrator in black text boxes that tells you what your choices are.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Right
Immersion? It feels more "real" in the sense that the choice isn't just laid out in front of me before I even get to the point in the mission. And not all missions are laid out as you described. Several of them do have actual combat in them before your make your choice, and I've even been influenced to make a choice based on the dialog during the cut scenes / mission before. It would suck to make a relatively uninformed choice of siding with Cleo without hearing her lie to your face about trying to kill you.
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Let's take the final Power moral choice to destroy the Olympian. The entire mission consists of you walking in, seeing a tank with the Olympian, and then the narrator starts telling you what you think and what your options are, and then you get the alignment choice. How is this different from having the narrator tell you this before you zones into the mission? Is it THAT much more immersive if you do it while watching a still shot of the Olympian in his tank?
I'd understand it if the mission were long and difficult and you got to see people making their cases along the way. But it's not. It's just one set-piece encounter that starts almost as soon as you walk in and ends the mission once its done.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes, it does say that. |
Originally Posted by Stealth_Bomber
Hmmm, maybe you're right. Except that Wikipedia says "In addition, most MMOs require some degree of teamwork for parts of the game. These tasks usually require players to take on roles in the group, such as those protecting other players from damage (called tanking), "healing" damage done to other players or damaging enemies" |
It doesn't say that all MMOs make you team all the time. In fact, it the part I have quoted here, it states that most MMOs require some degree of teamwork for PARTS of the game. That doesn't sound like it's saying you should be able to team for 100% of the game. The quoted part here does nothing to support your point at all.
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| But more importantly, in the CoH Game Manual, on page 58, there is an entire section about teaming and how to form and run teams. So any new player would naturally want to do this. In fact the person I ran into specifically asked to team. |
Saying "any new player would naturally want to do this" is not even close to true. You could say "many" new players, and that would be somewhat more accurate. In actuality, the word you're looking for is "some" new players would naturally want to do this. Don't speak for an entire group of people unless you know what that entire group's opinion is. There is no possible way you could know what every new player would prefer to do, so your statement is pure hyperbole.
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| If teaming is not possible, it should be clearly stated. |
I dunno, maybe I have an advantage over some people because I actually READ the boxes, instead of clicking my way through them as quickly as possible.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Just for clarification could you point out where it says that?|
Originally Posted by Stealth_Bomber
But more importantly, in the CoH Game Manual, on page 58, there is an entire section about teaming and how to form and run teams.
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Because I'm just not seeing it.
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Yes. It may not be to you, but it is to me. It's visually appealing. I LIKE the current set up because it gives a visual. And what about the Cleo mission I mentioned? Did you only read the first sentence of what you quoted and skip over the rest where I state that there is NPC text of Cleo and Washington stating their cases, of Cleo lying right there to you? There is nothing before the mission, or in those little choice boxes, indicating that she will, or has done, that.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Is it THAT much more immersive if you do it while watching a still shot of the Olympian in his tank?
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You think the set up is a horrible design. I think it's a brilliant cut scene use. I can agree to disagree on that point.
I agree with Mr. Right on this, I just wish they used it more--like I said before, make the Morality missions solo only and end with a choice like that rather than the simple 'Reward' pick they have now.
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Look, I like visuals as much as the next, but in this case, the need for visuals mandates a solo-only mission in a context that doesn't really have to be solo-only.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Right
Yes. It may not be to you, but it is to me. It's visually appealing. I LIKE the current set up because it gives a visual. And what about the Cleo mission I mentioned? Did you only read the first sentence of what you quoted and skip over the rest where I state that there is NPC text of Cleo and Washington stating their cases, of Cleo lying right there to you? There is nothing before the mission, or in those little choice boxes, indicating that she will, or has done, that.
You think the set up is a horrible design. I think it's a brilliant cut scene use. I can agree to disagree on that point. |
I read your entire post, and I thought I addressed it. But just to be clear: Each side gives you its argument pretty much in straight text. It's an argument that can easily be written out in the briefing text box I suggested. Yeah, sure, it may not work exactly like it works now in that one specific mission, but practically all other Morality missions I've seen are little more than one-sided explanations from just one side, if that.
When saving the mind-addled destroyer, all you get is a tank with him in, some narration and a choice menu. When helping the Seer shut down the network, you get a shot of the network, some narration and a choice window. When blowing up the Enriche plant, you get a monologue from Calvin Scott which is completely redundant with what the Dark Watcher said before and which could have popped up in its own window prior to that, and then a choice window. The last morality choice for Responsibility consists of a monologue by Kang interspersed with narration which he could have told you on the phone ahead of time if not for plot convenience, and a choice window. The fight with Beladonna Vetrano consists of a lecture by Beladonna which could have taken place before the mission and then a choice window. The mission to disconnect the Olympian consists of nothing more than a still shot and a choice window.
None of these missions REQUIRE these cutscenes. And I don't agree that the cutscenes add all that much to the immersion, either. They're just... Sort of there. Now, if the developers wanted to make the cutscenes important, they should have actually made the missions such to really revolve around them. The best one I can think of is the fight with Reese, where you have to run the gantlet before you even know there's a decision to make. THAT would be the right way to present these, but THAT is exactly how they're NOT presented.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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[QUOTE=Dollymistress;3274208][QUOTE] Not relevent. New players cannot create heroes and villains and so cannot go thru their tutorials until after they have gone thru Praetoria. At that point the ability to team in the tutorial is moot.
Wait...what? Since when can new players not make Hero and Villain characters? I made a villain a few days ago.
Can players who start with buying GR seriously not make real Heroes/Villains? Are they forced to play via Praetoria? If so, that's wacky.
Global name: @k26dp