SD (and other res based sets) how do you?


AnElfCalledMack

 

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(DEFENSE based of cours, sorry)

How do you deal with crazy accuracy buffs (Nemesis vengeance, DE's crystals)?


 

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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
How do you deal with crazy accuracy buffs (Nemesis vengeance, DE's crystals)?
When they start to bypass all that defense my softcapped scrapper is at, and start widdling away the health bar, and SoW just isn't enough, I pop the skittles and keep doing damage!


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
How do you deal with crazy accuracy buffs (Nemesis vengeance, DE's crystals)?
I think you mean:
A: defense based, not resistance
and B: tohit buffs, not accuracy


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You can do two things: Not fight them, or pop purples until your defense is high enough.

The hit-code is unfair for defense sets. Resistance debuffs increase damage done to a target by the percentage of the debuff, so resistance sets don't have to worry about taking much more damage than they already are taking. Defense debuffs had the potential to make you take more than double the damage on the first application and then start taking 3, 4, and 5 times more damage than you originally took. Defense debuff resistance helped reduce that issue, but getting close to 100% DDR is only possible with certain builds. To-hit buffs on the enemy end up being a direct counter to defense. Instead of multiplying their hit chance by the percentage, it effectively lowers your defense by the value of their buff. A change to that system is needed in order to make the game fair for both resistance and defensive sets.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
(DEFENSE based of cours, sorry)

How do you deal with crazy accuracy buffs (Nemesis vengeance, DE's crystals)?
Nemesis: *shrug* might preemptively use a small luck, kill Lts last if possible, mostly, unless solo vs high numbers, I just smash them and watch my health --> a precipitous drop means I use a medium purple and medium orange +/- more oranges, greens (and yellow and red) depending on what's floating around in the tray. For the most part I don't do anything particularly special vs Nemesis, they aren't that problematic for my claws/sr.

DE: Use a macro to target Guardians and Quartz. Both destroyed asap, moving out of the los of any DE within the area of the Quartz buff. Liberal use of Shockwave's kd/kb

Rularuu: Kill the eyeballs and be glad they don't buff the entire mob like Quartz do. Relatively rare to fight ... really have to go looking for them to end up fighting them much.

Arachnos: Much fun. Tarantula Mistresses and Fortunata Mistresses get the most attention. Probably have the least +to hit buffs but far more exotic (toxic and psi) damage types across the board than the others above. Banes are annoying, spend a lot of time catching them within Shockwave targeted at other arachnos (or just not required to target --> Spin) due to placating. In general the toughest foes to eliminate a particular one to make the mob significantly easier, almost the exact opposite of DE who become trivial by comparison once the Quartz/Guardians are dispatched.


 

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I avoid DE. They're pretty easy to avoid at 50. When I can't avoid them, I Shield Charge into the mob instead of gathering them up for Soul Drain first. The knockdown keeps them from spawning the quartzes right away, so I can kill the quartz spawners before they do so. If they drop one, I generally drop dead, since I play at high difficulty so they kill me in seconds. My /SR Scrapper, with no Shield Charge, just avoids DE.

Nemesis are easy, I pull the spawn around a corner (so they won't Vengeance the next spawn) and kill the Lieutenants last.

Rularuu, I kill the eyeballs first, and fast. Once those are down, they're just like any other enemy group. If it's an eyeball-heavy spawn, I eat some oranges first.


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Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

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Posted

Orange inspirations, for one, as a general rule. But I take Tough as well.

Never really had a problem with Nemesis. Just have to kill the lieutenants last. That's more tactical than an out-the-gate issue. Same for Quartz emanators from DE. After those buffs are up, though, I can't really tell you other than "pray you take them out before they get you." Dealing with those groups requires a mindset that says "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

I have not dealt with Rularuu for a good long while. Can't really say. The others' advice seems sound in that regard.


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DE crystals - Kill it fast before they kill you. If it was enough of a problem, I'd make a targeting macro as Doomguide suggests.
Nemesis vengeance- Kill everything but the lieutenants first, bring the lieutenants down, and AoE them to death.
Eyeballs - Avoid the Shadow Shard. I mean really. But if you MUST go there, avoid eyeballs. Wait, you're in the Shadow Shard fighting eyeballs? What's WRONG with you??? *sigh* Kill them fast I guess?
Arachnos - Kill tarantula mistresses fast. If necessary, create a targeting macro.

When all else fails, skittles. Taste the rainbow. Or "You do what we do, run. You run your *** off."


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"every situation requires your patented approach of shoot first, shoot later, shoot some more and then when everybody's dead try to ask a question or two." - President Grant, Wild Wild West, or thereabouts.

Kill 'em all, kill 'em fast. Accuracy only counts if you give 'em the chance to shoot at ya.


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I was hoping a "You just have to you this -grossly-expensive-IO-that-does-the-work-for-you-" answer. But thanks for the replies, I will try to play smarter.

About Nemesis leuts, if the leuts cast vengeance so I should kill them 1st and not last? Or its some kind of special vengeance that triggers on death?



Quote:
Kill 'em all, kill 'em fast. Accuracy only counts if you give 'em the chance to shoot at ya.
I dont know what build you play but as DM/SD I dont see this working at all facing +3/x6 missions. DE bosses at 95% chances to hit on my caped def just crushes me down faster than I can annimate 2 attacks.



Quote:
The hit-code is unfair for defense sets. Resistance debuffs increase damage done to a target by the percentage of the debuff, so resistance sets don't have to worry about taking much more damage than they already are taking. Defense debuffs had the potential to make you take more than double the damage on the first application and then start taking 3, 4, and 5 times more damage than you originally took. Defense debuff resistance helped reduce that issue, but getting close to 100% DDR is only possible with certain builds. To-hit buffs on the enemy end up being a direct counter to defense. Instead of multiplying their hit chance by the percentage, it effectively lowers your defense by the value of their buff. A change to that system is needed in order to make the game fair for both resistance and defensive sets.
Actually I have having less death troubles on my SD than on my FA, even buffed. SD has tools to raise DDR, and definately gets hurt against +to hit. But on heavy -res mob groups (hello longbows) the res based defensive sets really blows.
I mean I dont think there is a balance issue here. Now many the balance problem comes from the fact that while its doable to cap def anyone through IOs, it doesnt seem to be an option to raise decent resist on a Def cased character.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
I was hoping a "You just have to you this -grossly-expensive-IO-that-does-the-work-for-you-" answer. But thanks for the replies, I will try to play smarter.

About Nemesis leuts, if the leuts cast vengeance so I should kill them 1st and not last? Or its some kind of special vengeance that triggers on death?
Definitely kill the lieutenants LAST. Their Vengeance triggers on death and will stack, as far as I've seen, infinitely so if you kill them first you've got a whole lotta Nemesis left to deal with and they're all buffed to godmode.

There's no mechanical solution for dealing with enemies that specifically counter Defense. It's intended to be that way. Keeps you from doing the "faceroll" on your keyboard that a lot of us here on the forums say can get you through the vast majority of the content (I vehemently disagree but that's another story for another day )


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
About Nemesis leuts, if the leuts cast vengeance so I should kill them 1st and not last? Or its some kind of special vengeance that triggers on death?
The latter. It's not the same as player vengeance; the lieutenants cast Vengeance on themselves as they die. Killing the lieutenants first means you have the rest of the spawn veng'd up and ready to roll you up into a ball, killing them last means you have ... just a couple of lieutenants to deal with.

(Personally I don't think Nemesis themselves are that bad in that regard, but I have some nightmarish stories to tell about Nemesis+Malta or Nemesis+Rikti missions. Vengeance stacking + Comm Officer portals. Just imagine that for a second.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
I dont know what build you play but as DM/SD I dont see this working at all facing +3/x6 missions. DE bosses at 95% chances to hit on my caped def just crushes me down faster than I can annimate 2 attacks.
The DE enemies you want to watch out for specifically are the purple stone enemies, the Guardians. They have a pet, Quartz, that boosts the group's to-hit by ridiculous amounts.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Devouring_Earth#Guardian

It is very preventable because, IIRC, pet summoning for most critters is interruptible. Either way, much like the eyeballs, gun for them first. Possibly pop oranges depending on how things go. It has nothing to do with having a build that completely negates this, it is purely a matter of tactics and handling trouble before it happens.

As Sun Tzu said, "Know thyself, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories." (Speaking of, I never knew Arachnos had to-hit buffs. Good to know, and that probably explains the trouble I've had with them.)


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
About Nemesis leuts, if the leuts cast vengeance so I should kill them 1st and not last? Or its some kind of special vengeance that triggers on death?
Yes, their vengeance is special so it triggers when they die, not when their allies die. It will also affect enemies within range that aren't Nemesis, and yes, it does stack.
Quote:
I dont know what build you play but as DM/SD I dont see this working at all facing +3/x6 missions. DE bosses at 95% chances to hit on my caped def just crushes me down faster than I can annimate 2 attacks.
Yeah, that's why I avoid them. If that quartz drops there is no time to run, or eat insps, or kill it. I'm dead.

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Actually I have having less death troubles on my SD than on my FA, even buffed. SD has tools to raise DDR, and definately gets hurt against +to hit. But on heavy -res mob groups (hello longbows) the res based defensive sets really blows.
The only help I can offer is not to fight Longbow. They're lame and boring anyway. Of course if you're redside you can't avoid them. The -res grenades are location based though, so if you move around a lot you can avoid getting too many stacked on you (a good idea when fighting Longbow no matter what set you're playing....even if you're softcapped that Warden's Total Focus has a chance to hit, and if you're standing in enough sonic grenades only the one-shot code can save you). Of course Longbow can easily debuff any defense you may have built up, then they can stack enough beanbags to overcome your mez protection...they just suck. I'd rather fight Arachnos any day, at least they have a bunch of interesting and varied ways to screw you.


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Posted

The DE Quartz pet is the one true kryptonite for a defense based character; always, ALWAYS look at a mob of DE before jumping in and if you see a big pink crystal dude target him FIRST and kill him NOW. By the way, the DE pet summon is NOT interruptable... either knock him on his butt before he aggros or be prepared to IMMEDIATELY kill the Quartz pet as it summons.

As I recall that Quartz pet gives all DE in the rather large AOE a massive (on the order of +100%) tohit buff... effectively every DE in the area will have a 95% chance to hit you through soft capped defenses. You'd need on the order of 145% defense to soft cap yourself against buffed DE. Since this isn't practical you have two choices, kill it before the DE kill you or kill the Guardian before he drops it.


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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome View Post
By the way, the DE pet summon is NOT interruptable... either knock him on his butt before he aggros or be prepared to IMMEDIATELY kill the Quartz pet as it summons.
Yeah, I'm gonna retract that I said it was earlier, I fought against some today to see and figured out that I must have been thinking of the knockdown from Katana helping things along, not interruption. (I was also remembering other mobs like Raider Engineers, Rikti Communications Officers, or Malta Operation Officers, and even Lord Recluse, who I'm fairly confident still get interrupted while summoning!)

Of course I also had to thank the plant dom I was teaming with for confusing the Quartz in the group of DE I was fighting right before I faceplanted. If they're confused - well, the pets don't give you the buff, but they stop granting the buff to DE, at least. So that's another solution - they're only really, really dangerous when solo. Odds are they're NOT kryptonite for another team member you have!


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Shield Charging spawn at start doesnt help. Just tryed, they just summon Quartz later, and unless I pop a couple of orange I'm toast in the next second the quartz hit the ground.


 

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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome View Post
You'd need on the order of 145% defense to soft cap yourself against buffed DE. Since this isn't practical...
Pop Elude. 45% defense from normal powers/sets plus 70% from three-slotted Elude gives you 115% defense, a perfectly good starting point for building to 145% defense to the position of your choice.

Some quick hacking around on my Claws/SR build gives a Claws/SR/Soul that, with Elude and Shadow Meld running, has 159% to melee, 156% to ranged, and 145% to AoE. Further work might give something that's actually decent to play.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
Shield Charging spawn at start doesnt help. Just tryed, they just summon Quartz later, and unless I pop a couple of orange I'm toast in the next second the quartz hit the ground.
Shield Charge them, then incapacitate or kill them. And if you're having this much trouble, lower the number of players when you face DE - it drastically reduces the chance of two Guardians in a spawn, so your ST attacks should be able to handle them.

Another option if you were in a more AoE-friendly set than DM would be to save Shield Charge until they drop the emanators. Two good AoEs will usually kill an emanator, so if you let them all hit the ground, then AoE the spawn, you can clear all of them at once. You'll still need to drop the Guardians ASAP, so they don't have the pet recharge, but it might work.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU View Post
Shield Charging spawn at start doesnt help. Just tryed, they just summon Quartz later, and unless I pop a couple of orange I'm toast in the next second the quartz hit the ground.
That's your problem, you said "later." There should be no "later," since they should be dead. If there's only one Guardian, you should be able to kill it before it gets up. If there are two it's a little trickier. Eating some reds helps.

Of course the knockdown from Shield Charge isn't guaranteed, so if they don't get knocked down and manage to summon you're still screwed, but it works for me most of the time.


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Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

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