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Sca-REEEEEEECH! Hold on a second there.|
Originally Posted by Kazuo_Kiriyama
-When a troublesome blaster dies and a tank is tanking, is it the tank's fault that the blaster died? I won't take responsibility for another MM that can't control itself.
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Now I know you're responding to someone else, but I want to throw my hat in the ring on this little debacle. I've had to go over this several hundred times (and after migrating from Pre-BC WoW I've had to defend it even more).
If a Tanker/Brute is tanking and has aggro on 95% of the mobs (there are always stragglers) and a Blaster/Corruptor/Mastermind manages to get himself killed, it's his own stupidity that killed him, not the Tanker/Brute. Smart ranged damage AT players will know when and when not to fling something like an AoE or giant debuff. They'll also take note of whether or not the Tanker/Brute has a taunt/damage aura or not. If they don't, it's probably not the smartest idea to attack enemies that aren't immediately next to the Tanker/Brute.
So again, if Mr. Tank is tanking and Mr. Damage is damaging and Mr. Damage manages to rip off a few of Mr. Tank's straggler mobs and dies, Mr. Damage is to blame.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Bodyguard on TF/SF is scary sometimes due to bad AI
The problem with bodyguard mode on TF / SFs is you have to be in Def/Follow and pets AI sometimes has brain farts. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen my Medic or Arsonist run half way across a room and punch a mob we havent even engaged yet. This is way before I even have a chance to click anything to get them back ( fast little buggers sometimes ).
On TF/SFs I find it much easier to keep pets passive and force focus fire a specific mob in the bunch we are attacking ( usually bosses ). This is infinitely safer and still allows your pets to AOE as they hit everything around the Boss. This also allows you more ability to buff / debuff as you dont have to micro manage your pets every fight with GOTOs and rounding them up.
Thank you Nalrok_AthZim. You seem to understand perfectly.
Brakner, I THINK you may have missed the part in my saying that my play style is that of a Tankermind. I usually keep a tight leash on my pets. I have a follow button very handy (alt+1 for me) that I press very regularly. Now, there are times when we will get something extra. The lab room that starts with a ramp and a little uprise that holds 2 groups comes to mind. In that case, I have a few soft control tools I can use to help out. Henchmen might drop (but good thing I have the end to re-summon).
I do know what you're getting at though. This could have easily been the case of that second MM on the team I spoke of days ago.
T. Hayes
@The Cleansing
I solved this problem by retiring my /ff mm and rolling a /traps mm.
Less fiddly, most of the defence, and lots more pew pew.
It's your game, play how you wish to play.
However, when you come on to a team that someone else has taken the effort to form, you live by their playstyle, not yours. That means if they are asking for buffs and you don't feel the need to do so, getting kicked is perfectly acceptable. Likely they did replace you with a def/cor/or another MM and were quite pleased.
Personally, I try not to invite MM's to teams unless I know the player. Between the pet crowding and pathing and the attitude that henchmen who do not accrue debt and can be re-summoned are more important than players are sadly common. So I avoid the problem entirely. There are plenty of good MMs out there, but often times they are more hassle then they are worth.
If you were on my team, and if faceplanting was a fairly common occurrence, then I would ask that you buff the team. If the team is steamrolling, then I really wouldn't care. We're winning easily, you don't get a bonus for winning more. Basically, I'll give everyone on the team a chance to play their way. If the team fails, that's when I start to make suggestions or kick if people don't wish to adapt.
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This is unfortunately not how I play my MMs. My MMs are batteries of buffing and debuffing, with pets to supplement their damage. The only Tankermind I have is my Demon/Dark (set to x6) and I try not to team with him for reasons not worth mentioning.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
However, when you come on to a team that someone else has taken the effort to form, you live by their playstyle, not yours.
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If I get on a team, I bring my playstyle. If it's not helping the team and the leader has a problem with it, I either leave or change my style. However, if the leader doesn't like what I'm doing even though what I'm doing is greatly helping the team, I chalk it up to the leader's own dumb and wait for him to do something about it.
A great example of this was a team leader who demanded Painbringer from my Bots/Pain MM, even though he was another mastermind. "I'm the leader and I have a lot of high-endurance powers, I need it." I told him no, and kept giving it to our WM/Invul Brute.
He kicked me from the team, and the entire team disbanded and reformed-- without him and with a very savvy Plant dominator (Face Plant, I think it was).
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
I think the biggest thing people can do to alleviate stress is that if the team is rolling, don't complain. Soak XP/inf and move on. I used to get mad when I tossed out Ice Slick and someone would toss an immob on in. Then I sat back and realized that most times the team was rolling along. People weren't dying and we were fine. So I don't complain about it. There should be no complaints on a team ripping through things.
Same thing for the OP. You want to play tank and keep your buffs to yourself. If you think your three attack powers mean more to the team than buffing other players, fine. As long as we roll along, it's all good. When things go bad... well that's when the leader has every right to ask you to switch up.
IE, go ahead and tank if you want, but make sure everyone has bubs before you dive in. We'll wait.
If it's not your team, getting kicked is their option to remove what they think is a sub par and disruptive element. They may be right or wrong. However, you are not using your toon as good as you could and they have the right to ask that you do.
My experience is that more than half the time people don't wait.
I'm not using those puny arrow attacks Ninja has to offer. Pffttt... Repulsion Bomb as my opener, then Electric Fences and Thunder Strike (w/ Armageddon Proc).
T. Hayes
@The Cleansing
No doubt on this. However, if you had people dying on the team, then your efforts as a tank were not as good perhaps as putting those buffs on the people who could consistently pull aggro from you. People are rude, I routinely play a KIN, so I buff every mob typically, most do not wait.
However, if they roll through the content, I don't let it worry me. I keep the buffs up as I can and do whatever else I can do in the mean time. They're rolling. Even if I want them to wait for me to finish, it really slows things down, so I go as I can and everyone is happy.
Kazuo, I have no doubt you have a good character. However, if people are dying, personally I think they have a right to wonder and ask why you are not giving them a buff to keep them alive. They may be stupid players. However, you might also find your kill speed goes up with them playing reckless and shielded by your buffs. I know that as a Kin, SB on everyone adds more damage than nearly any attacks I can make.
Edit: Consider a blaster. If I start a mish and unload and realize no one can hold aggro, I hold back. I am now under a 50% or greater damage debuff since I have to rely on ST attacks and the odd AOE. When shielded, I can let loose and even if I get aggro, can live through it. Your bubble increased by damage tons. Sure I am smart enough to survive without, I'm just not as good. Just something to think about.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
A great example of this was a team leader who demanded Painbringer from my Bots/Pain MM, even though he was another mastermind.
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I had to read this three times before it even parsed. I thought he was asking you to switch to a Peacebringer or something.
Painbringer on a MM is dumb, no arguments. I bubble everyone because I can, easily. Painbringer I can keep only on one teammate, and barely at that. Usually it goes on the brutes and scrappers, and usually I rotate it around so everyone can have fun.
Occasionally it goes on tanks (like that one Dark/Dark tank. Guy was *good*, and it helped a lot.) But usually tanks at that level don't seem to need it. As long as their health and endurance look fine, I skip them and put it on those who seem to need it more.
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Yeah, his argument was that, as a /Poison MM his powers cost him enough endurance for him to need a significant recovery boost such as Painbringer. Too bad he was just rebuffing his resummoned pets and kept running out of blue bar.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
I had to read this three times before it even parsed. I thought he was asking you to switch to a Peacebringer or something.
Painbringer on a MM is dumb, no arguments. I bubble everyone because I can, easily. Painbringer I can keep only on one teammate, and barely at that. Usually it goes on the brutes and scrappers, and usually I rotate it around so everyone can have fun. Occasionally it goes on tanks (like that one Dark/Dark tank. Guy was *good*, and it helped a lot.) But usually tanks at that level don't seem to need it. As long as their health and endurance look fine, I skip them and put it on those who seem to need it more. |
And yes, we Dark/Dark tanks are beasts. :P
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
At this point of playing the game, especially when you will see archetypes of any kind in your team, I no longer have any preconcieved notions about Characters- at all. I'm actually of the opinion that you can slap any 8 characters together and as long as it's a decent mix of powersets they will do just fine, IF everyone has a role to fulfill and they do it well.
It's kind of how I view life actually, if each person has a (possibly self-chosen) role to fulfill and does it well, then when everyone comes together and they adjust to each other a bit, the project will go fine.
So I think it's fine to be a "tankermind." As long as you are actually able to tank well, I don't care. Just like that Thermal Mastermind that is a great healer with no shields, if he heals well, then he is filling a role on the team. A very unconventional one for his powerset, but I don't care as long as he does it well. I actually really like that Masterminds can be "Defenders with pets," and frankly that's why I play them. I like to heal/support teams, and having pets attacking things while I do it. But like I said, I don't view archetypes or even powersets as having certain roles anymore. I just want you to have some sort of role that you contribue to the party.
So sure, play your tankermind, be the "Tank" role for the team while I hang back a bit and heal and buff you. But be really good at it. If you can't hold the aggro and tank like a... well... Tank, then either adjust your playstyle and do something you CAN be good at, or play a Tank instead. It sounds like you are doing just fine, and honestly I kinda wish I could see you in action. I have never seen a Tankermind before.
First thing at the OP.
If you think bubbling the team is an issue try playing a pain MM an be expected to keep up the whole group an neglect your pets. 
You will have many more problems then just end issues.
Kittens Club Supergroup Leader@Savannah (Freedom)
I think everyones reading it wrong...
They were steamrolling ok? And the mastermind was tanking..
He was keeping his end to himself and his pets so that
a) the bodyguards dont get randomly killed because he shares hp with them
b) keep aggro from as many enemies
Also, He DIDNT SAY HE WASNT BUFFING MELEE
He said he buffed people who got into trouble with their hp ok??
Repeat.
He buffed people who got into trouble with hp.
So yes. He buffed the other tanks, melee, and the other mm who kept getting almost killed. Other people who didnt get into trouble didnt get buffs because they obviously dont need it.
Now why is everyone all saying that he isnt buffing? He is buffing those that needs it and the others who arent getting into trouble dont get buffs. What is so hard to understand x.x
He was tanking well, no one was dieing, people who needed buffs got it. People who didnt need buffs and didnt get it complained and got him kicked off.
-.-
Generally I think Tankerminds should allow Tanks and Brutes to hold the aggro. Tanks have all the tools to hold it and Brutes benifit from being attacked thanks to Fury. That said it doesn't mean you can jump in and Tankermind, just that you should let the ATs built for it handle it.
Second, and this is a big thing when I play MMs, put the team over my henchmen. Yes, I understand that an MMs damage (And damage management) comes from their minions, but most players will do more than a minion. Bubble everyone before the battle if possible. If it's not possible, prioritize (Ie, Melee first, anyone in close to the battle and pets second) and do your thing.
Above all though if what your doing works in spite of that... Then keep doing it and ignore what I said.
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MMs are built for it. That's why they have higher threat modifiers than ATs that aren't supposed to tank (the MM henchmen actually have mods of 3, making them just below Brutes and Tankers in that regard.) |
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Generally I think Tankerminds should allow Tanks and Brutes to hold the aggro. Tanks have all the tools to hold it and Brutes benifit from being attacked thanks to Fury. That said it doesn't mean you can jump in and Tankermind, just that you should let the ATs built for it handle it.
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And while Brutes benefit damage-wise from holding aggro, a Mastermind, especially with epic pool armours, will generally be as tough, if not tougher, than most Brutes (Stone might be the only Brute secondary that might consistently beat a MM).
A Brute might be able to hold that aggro, but it's more work for the team to keep a Brute alive through the aggro they grab. Except for the small subset of heavily-IOd Brutes and Scrappers, a MM is almost certainly going to be able to weather damage more easily than either AT.
With Tankers, you might have a point (though Fire Tankers might lag a bit), but for Brutes, not necessarily as much. My Thug/Dark Tankermind takes a beating a lot better than the SS/WP Brute she's often teamed with.
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True, but Brutes still get much needed Fury from being attacked.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
MMs are built for it. That's why they have higher threat modifiers than ATs that aren't supposed to tank (the MM henchmen actually have mods of 3, making them just below Brutes and Tankers in that regard.)
And while Brutes benefit damage-wise from holding aggro, a Mastermind, especially with epic pool armours, will generally be as tough, if not tougher, than most Brutes (Stone might be the only Brute secondary that might consistently beat a MM). A Brute might be able to hold that aggro, but it's more work for the team to keep a Brute alive through the aggro they grab. Except for the small subset of heavily-IOd Brutes and Scrappers, a MM is almost certainly going to be able to weather damage more easily than either AT. With Tankers, you might have a point (though Fire Tankers might lag a bit), but for Brutes, not necessarily as much. My Thug/Dark Tankermind takes a beating a lot better than the SS/WP Brute she's often teamed with. |
Although I've met people who think Brutes only get Fury from attacking for some reason...
I'm just saying in the Tanking pecking order MMs are below Tankers and Brutes. And maybe a good Crab, but your milage may and will vary on that one.
My personal opinion is that the buffs should be kept up on whomever needs them to keep the team moving although it's nice to keep them on everyone if manageable.
That being said I personally refuse to play any set with 4 minute shields or Kinetics because I hate having to rebuff everyone that frequently (so as not to start a flamewar regarding Speed Boost, I do not consider it essential for a Kin to keep SB up, however for me not keeping SB up close to 100% of the time would ruin my enjoyment of the character). Personally I think all of the 100% uptime on the entire team powers (with the possible exception of the mez protection powers) should be made more user-friendly whether by increasing the duration or simply making them PBAoE buffs (although I realize that this necessitates a means to block or cancel them). As far as I'm concerned making a power inconvenient to use isn't a means of balancing it.
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Originally Posted by Kazuo_Kiriyama
So, I'v been playing with a Ninja/FF. I went for a Tankermind sort of build on the fly. I have a lot of fun with it. I bubble my pets and get them to near softcap with he help of my big bubble and maneuvers. What makes me a jerk though? A good portion of the time, I don't bother distributing bubble to the rest of the team. I give them as needed usually. If there is a Tank or Brute, I usually pass them some bubbles unless I'm doing my Tankermind thing. Got a blaster or Corr that gets in trouble a lot? Give them the range/aoe bubble. The point I'm making is, I don't feel the need to buff EVERYONE every 4 minutes.
In the time I've played like this, I've only had ONE bad apple... a few nights ago. They proceeded to berate me, piss, and moan... after they booted me several missions into the team (that was doing really well considering the tank was a newbie and the DS/Dark MM got into trouble from time to time). I could go on and on about how I was taking alpha and dishing out damage, but it didn't seem to matter. Now, I come here tot he boards and see some saying that they avoid buffing sets because they don't want to do pets and players every 4 minutes. I say SCREW THEM! The effort put into min-maxing the team, in my opinion, is wasted for the most part. There is no sense in shielding a blaster or defender that's doing fine staying out of trouble, thanks to a well played tank or a great controller. Should I have been shielding that MM? Maybe. Could that MM been played better? Perhaps. Am I mostly getting something off my chest to see if others feel like I feel? Absolutely. |
I have several 50 MMs, and tried a bubs necro for the heck of it. I stopped playing around level 19 (this was before the accelerated lower levels, BTW) because I could...not...stand re-bubbling everything every few minutes. Between my own pets and the team, it was way too irritating.
It's kind of sad -- there's not much for bubbles to do other than bubble people, is that the reason they don't last that long? To give people something to do?
"Hey! You knocked generic cola all over your precious D20 books!"
ED: Now I know how Nancy Kerrigan felt: "Why...?!? Why...?!?"
I certainly wouldn't have kicked you from the team for it, unless you were being a jerk or something.
Honestly, when forming a team, I don't really expect a mastermind to provide all that much team support. I expect them to expend most of their effort on buffing their pets (assuming they have buffs) and for the most part that's what they do. If I want a buffer who is going to focus on the team, I'll invite a corruptor, defender, or controller.