I say go with it, since GR the bar for villainy has been raised any way.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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It's come up before in a few stories, mostly NPC villains doing so, and usually the organized crime families. Human trafficing has come in stories relating to one of my characters, Fear Trigger, a Family hunting vigilante. In the first story featuring her, it involves a deal she interrupts for drugs, some black market Rikti blasters and a couple of girls to work in a brothel.
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Originally Posted by Jaijot
I noted that the death of 1000 is too much for union roleplayers in general. Now I am uncertain if it is okay to roleplay a villain doing crime of similar level. I must ask: is it ok to roleplay a human trafficer in Union roleplay community?
At the moment human trafficing in real world Europe is a big problem. Not only because its ruthless nature, but also because the criminals organizing it get rich very fast, and that way are able to bribe politicians and reporters fairly easily. Bringing a real, topical problem into imaginary game world could be of bad taste. What do you think? Is it ok, or is it better drop the idea? |
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Yes, for a number of reasons;|
Originally Posted by Jaijot
I noted that the death of 1000 is too much for union roleplayers in general. Now I am uncertain if it is okay to roleplay a villain doing crime of similar level. I must ask: is it ok to roleplay a human trafficer in Union roleplay community?
At the moment human trafficing in real world Europe is a big problem. Not only because its ruthless nature, but also because the criminals organizing it get rich very fast, and that way are able to bribe politicians and reporters fairly easily. Bringing a real, topical problem into imaginary game world could be of bad taste. What do you think? Is it ok, or is it better drop the idea? |
1) Everyday problem that is hard to combat due to secretive nature, shady individuals and stealth. The typical sort of thing Heroes try and fight against. Is it something that can happen everyday and most average people not even know it's going on? You bet!
2) Unless you try and smuggle, say, an entire country somewhere, it's believable, and should also have believable consequences. PPD attacks? Sure. Longbow? Very possible. The odd Hero? If it's sensitive to them, maybe.
The reason the 1000 dead school children was blown out of the water was because of the huge implications it would have simply had to have had in character. Namely, outright war, mobilisation of the US army (9/11 only had 1k worth more casualties, and children are always a sensetive topic) and the obliteration of an entire SG pretty much without question, because there would be no other way around it without utterly, utterly godmoding both the game world and Heroes characters.
Human trafficking? Horrible, sure, but also an 'everyday' crime.
Believe me, people didn't shout down the St Johns thing- ok, I didn't shout down the St Johns thing because 'oh god, think of the children!' but simply because it was impossible for people to not notice, and would have meant the unequivical destruction of the Court. I doubt all it's players would be happy to be told that 'Hey, due to this you have to kill off your toons, sorry.'
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It wasn't the death of 1,000 people. It was the death of 1,000 young children in their first week of school. The hypothetical response to those two things is entirely different - and one requires huge changes you cannot adequately simulate in the game.
Specific details in stories are what people will take the most disagreement with, such as the above. It will be the *type* of human trafficking that causes a problem, not the trafficking itself (if there is a problem).
I'd have no problem with a human trafficking plot in general. It'd depend on the specific details as to whether other people do.
The main thing however is not whether you do it or not. It's what you do after you do it and (hypothetically) get resistance to it.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Believe me, people didn't shout down the St Johns thing- ok, I didn't shout down the St Johns thing because 'oh god, think of the children!' but simply because it was impossible for people to not notice, and would have meant the unequivical destruction of the Court. I doubt all it's players would be happy to be told that 'Hey, due to this you have to kill off your toons, sorry.'
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And yet Arachnos are still around after Sirens Call, Deathstroke is still around after Bloodhaven, Ultron is around after he killed an entire country, Lex Luthor is still around after he killed a massive number of US citizens.
Heck look at the real world and 9/11,Al-Qaeda are still around.
If the hammer of justice is really that strong, the Court would of been destroyed long ago, I mean how many people do you think a hundred year old vampire has killed just to feed?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Yeah, but not all in one go.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
And yet Arachnos are still around after Sirens Call, Deathstroke is still around after Bloodhaven, Ultron is around after he killed an entire country, Lex Luthor is still around after he killed a massive number of US citizens.
Heck look at the real world and 9/11,Al-Qaeda are still around. If the hammer of justice is really that strong, the Court would of been destroyed long ago, I mean how many people do you think a hundred year old vampire has killed just to feed? |
And yes, real world groups are still around. That's also entirely missing the point; i.e. a number of countries have gone to war over real world events that are on a similar scale to the event on the forums. We, as players, do not have the ability to make such huge changes as would be required of the original death toll. I thought we'd settled that.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I must be more clear on this point: the amount of money human trafficers make is vast. They are able to buy politicians, influence general opinion and even change the laws of a country! Look at the present day Europe: who are the people behind romanian human trafficing? They have not been caught, and there is very little you can do against them. If you give enough money to members of the European parliament, politicians of different countries and reporters, suddenly a crime isn't really illegal, after all.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
2) Unless you try and smuggle, say, an entire country somewhere, it's believable, and should also have believable consequences. PPD attacks? Sure. Longbow? Very possible. The odd Hero? If it's sensitive to them, maybe.
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With that kind of money, you are virtually untouchable. I would not consider PPD attacks belieable conseguences. Police can be bought. It has been seen in real life. I consider vigilante assaults more belieable.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The reason the 1000 dead school children was blown out of the water was because of the huge implications it would have simply had to have had in character. Namely, outright war, mobilisation of the US army (9/11 only had 1k worth more casualties, and children are always a sensetive topic) and the obliteration of an entire SG pretty much without question, because there would be no other way around it without utterly, utterly godmoding both the game world and Heroes characters.
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Bad taste is a very subjective thing. Different people roleplay for different reasons and with different priorities. Some will be offended by your content, some won't.|
Originally Posted by Jaijot
Bringing a real, topical problem into imaginary game world could be of bad taste.
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Personally, I'd suggest simply putting in an OOC content warning when you launch the plot to let people know what they're in for, and let them use their own judgement to decide whether they're comfortable with it.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
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Originally Posted by Wolfram
Bad taste is a very subjective thing. Different people roleplay for different reasons and with different priorities. Some will be offended by your content, some won't.
Personally, I'd suggest simply putting in an OOC content warning when you launch the plot to let people know what they're in for, and let them use their own judgement to decide whether they're comfortable with it. |
You see I'd disagree since that would spoil surprise, and avoid them having to think on their feet.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
In Nitoichi's fall from grace, she spent several months tracking a human trafficing ring (actually, linked into Z's Fear Trigger plots, because we felt like it and it worked) who had killed someone placed in her care. Somewhere there's a link to a story called 'The Rising Price of Meat' (I think) about that very thing.
You do need to consider your audience. I'm fairly happy that people reading my stuff are adult and able to cope, but I post notes to the effect that it's 'mature' content. Similarly, the recent 'New Divide' trilogy, which featured the actions of a sadistic serial killer, and did stray into in-game roleplay, was marked heavily as containing adult content.
You should know your audience, and write plots or fiction accordingly. One of the basic rules of GMing and writing.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Just wanted to pick this one up. Really? History proves otherwise? I think you're going to have some real difficulty backing this one up.
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Originally Posted by Jaijot
Wrong. It is wrong to compare that incident to 9/11 and assume the death of 1000 would escalate into war. History proves otherwise. Death of 1000 in a terrorist act does not automatically lead into war.
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Indeed. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rorist_attacks.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Just wanted to pick this one up. Really? History proves otherwise? I think you're going to have some real difficulty backing this one up.
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Now, I'm not claiming Wikipedia is infallible, but they'd have to be missing something pretty huge here.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
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/Is reminded of a Dilbert comic about certain database types as an idea and chuckles|
Originally Posted by Wolfram
Indeed. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rorist_attacks.
Now, I'm not claiming Wikipedia is infallible, but they'd have to be missing something pretty huge here. |
Anyway, that proves my point nicely. Out of the actual terrorist attacks, the one on forums would have been second only to 9/11. Trying to ignore that would be like ignoring....I dunno, something equally horrific. I know the politcal and rioting ones are worse, but that's where countries are in a state of war or civil war anyway. Not just an out of the blue civilian target.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
/Is reminded of a Dilbert comic about certain database types as an idea and chuckles
Anyway, that proves my point nicely. Out of the actual terrorist attacks, the one on forums would have been second only to 9/11. Trying to ignore that would be like ignoring....I dunno, something equally horrific. I know the politcal and rioting ones are worse, but that's where countries are in a state of war or civil war anyway. Not just an out of the blue civilian target. |
Things are different in comic books though Tech.
I mentioned Bloodhaven earlier, the fatalities there 100,064, the villains responsible for it are still around, of course the whole zombie lantern uprising may of distracted people a bit from it, but that is still a lot of people.
Hank Pym aka Ant-man, aka Yellow Jacket, aka Giant Man, created Ultron, Ultron later killed an entire country, more or less just for the luls, I don't have the exact figure buts is likely more than the Bloodhaven figures, both Hank Pym and Ultron are still around.
Of course if we are going to say Paragon City should be like real life, well since the Patriot Act, there is no such thing as a right to privacy for Peacebringer or Warshade characters.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Hank Pym's still around because he never meant for Ultron to go out murdering. His creation turned against him. He helped fight Ultron to stop them even.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Hank Pym aka Ant-man, aka Yellow Jacket, aka Giant Man, created Ultron, Ultron later killed an entire country, more or less just for the luls, I don't have the exact figure buts is likely more than the Bloodhaven figures, both Hank Pym and Ultron are still around.
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And the *direct* consequence of the massacre of that state was for everyone grouping up and kicking Ultron's *** so bad it was comical. He was dead for a long time, eventually rebuilt because he's an AI and he left scrap code around that compelled old machines he'd made to rebuild him. I don't think anyone was saying that those involved wouldn't come back eventually (Though universally hated, which Ultron is), but the immediate response is for them to get a thorough *** kicking and be gone for a good while.
So you're kind of arguing against yourself here. Yes, they did come back *eventually* but the immediate consequences are what we're arguing about. Did anyone want a global scale beat down and character retirement for a while? I don't think so.
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The thing is... it's an open secret that Ultron has the exact same mind as Hank Pym as in Ultron is a robot Hank Pym, just like he later made a sex bot with the Wasps mind... that said, Marvel's 616 Super Scientists are pretty much all horrible people.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Hank Pym's still around because he never meant for Ultron to go out murdering. His creation turned against him. He helped fight Ultron to stop them even.
And the *direct* consequence of the massacre of that state was for everyone grouping up and kicking Ultron's *** so bad it was comical. He was dead for a long time, eventually rebuilt because he's an AI and he left scrap code around that compelled old machines he'd made to rebuild him. I don't think anyone was saying that those involved wouldn't come back eventually (Though universally hated, which Ultron is), but the immediate response is for them to get a thorough *** kicking and be gone for a good while. So you're kind of arguing against yourself here. Yes, they did come back *eventually* but the immediate consequences are what we're arguing about. Did anyone want a global scale beat down and character retirement for a while? I don't think so. |
As for your last point, I don't know about that, I know I was expecting/am still expecting it, and others agreed I could use their SG's in it...
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Thing is Hank Pym and Ultron aren't much alike at all. Ultron has confidence for example. Hank Pym kind of sucked at making Ultron a copy of him, which is no surprise if you know Hank Pym.
Lot of people didn't want to be involved with the plot. If you'd kept it to the thread it's likely no one would have complained either but you brought it out into the shared threads and then people who didn't volunteer for it suddenly find they've had this massive tragedy dropped into thier laps. Personally not my thing, so I'll pass.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
Thing is Hank Pym and Ultron aren't much alike at all. Ultron has confidence for example. Hank Pym kind of sucked at making Ultron a copy of him, which is no surprise if you know Hank Pym.
Lot of people didn't want to be involved with the plot. If you'd kept it to the thread it's likely no one would have complained either but you brought it out into the shared threads and then people who didn't volunteer for it suddenly find they've had this massive tragedy dropped into thier laps. Personally not my thing, so I'll pass. |
That's the thing though, if its not your cup of tea, just ignore it.
Demanding people change things so you can comfortably ignore it, that's going too far in my opinion, especially if the same requests are made of you, and you tell them no.
Back to Hank, thing is Hank is a crazy murdering psychopath, or has been one, lets not forget that this was the guy who invented an indestructible killer robot (not Ultron) that only he knew how to defeat, and had it attack the Avengers, so he could arrive, save the day and get his Avengers membership back. funny enough despite having a literal I win button, Hank lost against the robot, and his wife saved the day.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Well I'm not exactly going to hang a flag on Marvel for good writing.
And "I can do what I like and if you don't like it suck it" is a perfectly valid way to Roleplay. I wouldn' recommend it to anyone, but you pay to play the game so you can do it how you like. That doesn't mean everyone has to accept it and call it good stuff though, goodness me no, not even close.
As for me ignoring it, I did say "Personally not my thing, so I'll pass."
Just saying if you don't want people to ignore you, don't do stuff like this. If you do then..hell go nuts I guess.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
Well I'm not exactly going to hang a flag on Marvel for good writing.
And "I can do what I like and if you don't like it suck it" is a perfectly valid way to Roleplay. I wouldn' recommend it to anyone, but you pay to play the game so you can do it how you like. That doesn't mean everyone has to accept it and call it good stuff though, goodness me no, not even close. As for me ignoring it, I did say "Personally not my thing, so I'll pass." Just saying if you don't want people to ignore you, don't do stuff like this. If you do then..hell go nuts I guess. |
Oh it actually makes sense, only a mentalist would think it is a good idea to build an invincible robot, with the mind of a mentalist as blue print for its AI/brain, unfortunately that mentalist is Hank Pym, who did think it was a good idea and did it.
I'm perfectly happy with people not getting involved in plots and so on, it adds a bit of the real world indifference that plagues society to the RP world, the floods in Pakistan is a true tragedy, but I don't think you know many people who have as soon as the news broke jetted off to Pakistan to help out right?
Now, whats the difference to running an event that would make for an appalling news story, thus 'forcing' people to react (never done this if you don't want in, because of OOC reasons that's up to you) or instead say writing about how all Longbow are actually jackbooted pro-none powers, neo-terrorists led by an incredibly self righteous and self centered super human, but when some one complains how your editing the group within a shared environment, you can claim that they can just ignore the story, even though they are using it to change the shared world?
Hmm, perhaps I'm still a little wound up over people, I shouldn't derail this thread any further.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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You'd be right! I don't know any super heroes in real life who could fly over there (Or vampires for that matter, not even the sparkly kind) It's a bit of a non question, no one I knows has the money to get a flight and go help in any kind of meaningful way. I know plenty of people who donate to relief efforts though, so alturism isn't dead.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
I'm perfectly happy with people not getting involved in plots and so on, it adds a bit of the real world indifference that plagues society to the RP world, the floods in Pakistan is a true tragedy, but I don't think you know many people who have as soon as the news broke jetted off to Pakistan to help out right?
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Now, whats the difference to running an event that would make for an appalling news story, thus 'forcing' people to react (never done this if you don't want in, because of OOC reasons that's up to you) or instead say writing about how all Longbow are actually jackbooted pro-none powers, neo-terrorists led by an incredibly self righteous and self centered super human, but when some one complains how your editing the group within a shared environment, you can claim that they can just ignore the story, even though they are using it to change the shared world?
Hmm, perhaps I'm still a little wound up over people, I shouldn't derail this thread any further. |
Not really sure what you're arguing here I got to admit. Other than that overstepping boundries leads to all kinds of problems, which we get! Believe me we get that and have been trying to point out quite a bit!
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That's the thing though Fans, why does the first one result in a long ***** topic, 'poo pooing' the idea, with various people giving long explanations why things should change IC to suit their OOC apathy and views on what is acceptable.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Well the obvious difference is one's a bad idea, while the others a bad idea that's also twisting canon information into a pretzel to get a weird outlook on a canon group. Not really sure what you're arguing here I got to admit. Other than that overstepping boundries leads to all kinds of problems, which we get! Believe me we get that and have been trying to point out quite a bit! |
Yet when the people who 'poo pooed' the first idea, do the second idea, and complaints are brought up they are told to ignore it as it 'does not affect their characters', but surely twisting a canon group and its information, is effecting everyone's characters, because we are supposed to be sharing a world, no?
I could get even more venomous, but I'll try not to, especially since you're not one of those people Fans.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
You'd have to ask them, I don't really see the difference.
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Honest curiosity here - is the "all Longbow are actually jackbooted pro-none powers, neo-terrorists led by an incredibly self righteous and self centered super human" thing a character's opinion of them, or the way someone chose to write them?|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Now, whats the difference to running an event that would make for an appalling news story, thus 'forcing' people to react (never done this if you don't want in, because of OOC reasons that's up to you) or instead say writing about how all Longbow are actually jackbooted pro-none powers, neo-terrorists led by an incredibly self righteous and self centered super human, but when some one complains how your editing the group within a shared environment, you can claim that they can just ignore the story, even though they are using it to change the shared world?
Hmm, perhaps I'm still a little wound up over people, I shouldn't derail this thread any further. |
The reason I ask is that characters are perfectly entitled to whatever opinion they want about in-game groups, but people writing about those groups should try to be objective, if at all possible.
Have to confess, I don't recognise the reference, but I have several characters who have a less-than-lively respect for Longbow.
Since I don't recognise the reference, I certainly can't be sure, but if someone said "my take on this group has no effect on you, just ignore it", I have to wonder if that player is personifying their character's opinion, rather than attempting to say "everyone must agree OOC that this group are like this".
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
I noted that the death of 1000 is too much for union roleplayers in general. Now I am uncertain if it is okay to roleplay a villain doing crime of similar level. I must ask: is it ok to roleplay a human trafficer in Union roleplay community?
At the moment human trafficing in real world Europe is a big problem. Not only because its ruthless nature, but also because the criminals organizing it get rich very fast, and that way are able to bribe politicians and reporters fairly easily. Bringing a real, topical problem into imaginary game world could be of bad taste. What do you think? Is it ok, or is it better drop the idea?