While my fire / rad isnt high level, my earth / rad is 50, so my experience of rad as secondary, and how it may work with fire;
Choking cloud, I would fit ito my build. 5 slotted with 4x Bas gaze for a 7.5% recharge bonus, and 1 of the Lockdown Mag 2 hold proc. This should act as a means of stopping runners from your damage toggle, and lockdown their mean melee agro from slapping you up.
EM pulse, as a ranged troller I never use(d) respeced out of it now. I never found a "oh sheep" moment were it would have been effective. But then Earth has enough control that it was probably overkill, it may prove useful for fire, id have to see how it plays tbh to make a decision, but I would be tempted to take it and see how much i use it first. With imps out, and mobs locked down, the momentary loss of recovery should be manageable.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Agree on Choking Cloud with the +2mag proc. It's pretty effective when so slotted, especially if you plan on getting down with Hot Feet. EMP, yeah, probably redundant with Cinders, but if I were looking to drop just one, it might be Cinders. Everything Cinders does, EMP does better; besides which EMP is a huge -regen debuff for when you miss with LR.
To me, Choking Cloud + Hot Feet is THE reason to play a Fire/Rad. No, it is not "redundant with Cinders." It works very differently. And I have a lot of experience with Fire/Rad -- one 50 on one server, and a 48 on another. If you have never used a fully slotted combo of Hot Feet+Choking Cloud, you are missing out on the main benefit of a Fire/Rad -- the ability to be a walkin', talkin' continual killing machine who doesn't have to always rely upon the AoE mez.
To properly slot Choking Cloud, you need to slot it for what it needs and not use it as a mule for bonuses. In my Ill/Rad guide I explain the mechanics of Choking Cloud and why it needs to be fully slotted for Hold Duration -- anyone who has not fully slotted the power to the ED max has not experienced the power to its full benefit. Then slotting in as much EndRdx as you can makes it easier to use all the time with Hot Feet. Before level 50, I recommend slotting it for max EndRdx, but at 50, you can get enough Recovery bonuses to drop it a little bit less than that.
Before level 50, I frankenslot the power with EndRdx/Hold from a bunch of sets, and then fit in the Lockdown proc. My level 50 ideal slotting is EndRdx/Hold, Hold, Acc/Hold/Rech and Chance for Smashing from the purple Unbreakable Constraint set, the Lockdown +2 Mag proc and a common EndRdx IO.
And let me tell you -- Earth/Rad is nothing like Fire/Rad. (I know something about Earth/Rad . . . see my guide linked below.) Fire/Rad is unique in being the single build in the game that can make the best use of Choking Cloud. I'm sorry that you did not use it while leveling up, since you missed out on one of the best aspects of the build. Solo, you can Flashfire+Fire Cages from range and run in to just stand there while the Imps party. If Flashfire is recharging, you can run in to use Cinders. Choking Cloud's strength is extending the initial mez to keep foes neutered while they die a slow death from Hot Feet. On teams, a good tank can often get the aggro and you may not even need Flashfire as often.
I like to keep EM pulse as a panic button, but I don't use it very often. However, I feel free to use Cinders whenever it is up, knowing that I have a back-up, superior AoE hold if things go downhill. EM Pulse is a better hold power than Cinders, but the -Recovery turns the EndDrain of Choking Cloud+Hot Feet into a blue bar drainer. Still, EM Pulse has its special uses -- when you want to get a huge number of foes who are spread out, or a bunch of Robots (it does damage to Robots) or if you need the -Regen. Most of the time, Cinders is enough.
I built my second Fire/Rad so that my buddies and I can have a team of Fire/Rads. You have never seen fast killing in this game until you have seen a full team of Fire/Rads running Hot Feet+Choking Cloud running around to kill everything in sight - including AVs. The stacking of those powers is amazing, and a team of Fire/Rads is faster than any snowballing team. Ask the people on the Fire/Rad superteam if Choking Cloud is a good idea. One post called their team the "OMFGWTFBBQ" team.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I have found that I have plenty of lockdown without it. I have often seen Choking Cloud used to good effect by others, but I never felt the need or want for it on my Fire/Rad controller.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I agree with Local Man. Choking Cloud is absolutly one of the two powers that make Fire/Rad such an amazing machine of destruction.
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I first tried Choking Cloud with my Ill/Rad. I quickly decided, "this power sucks!" (endurance, as well as usefulness) and respec'ed out pretty quickly. It wasn't until a while later when I rolled up a Fire/Rad that I decided to give it another chance. What makes Choking Cloud work is combining it with (a) some other kind of mez that lets you take initial control of the foes (like Flashfire or Cinders), and (b) some kind of PB AoE aura (Hot Feet, Arctic Air, Conductive Aura) that will work WITH Choking Cloud to increase the odds of it being effective. And then, it really isn't very good until fully slotted. But once it is fully slotted, it becomes a very effective tool for maintaining mez over a long time, to allow the foes to be defeated in safety. A Fire/Rad won't kill as fast as a Fire/Kin, but it will kill more safely just by standing there and letting Choking Cloud+Hot Feet and the Imps do the dirty work.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I have found that I have plenty of lockdown without it. I have often seen Choking Cloud used to good effect by others, but I never felt the need or want for it on my Fire/Rad controller.
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So, while I hated it on my Ill/Rad, I came (eventually) to love it on my Fire/Rad. But you have to change your playstyle and tactics to take advantage of it once it is fully slotted.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I would not make a Fire/Rad without both powers. I'd drop Cinders over EM Pulse if I had to drop something. I have all three as my Fire/Rad is all about egregious amounts of control.
Choking Cloud simply synergizes with the Fire/Rad playstyle if sit in the middle of spawn with the Imps and Hot Feet 'em. It must be 6 slotted for acc/hold/end and the +2 hold proc. i.e. if you're going to take it, you really want to invest in heavy slotting. I use 4 basilisk gaze IOs, the +2 proc and a hold/end.
EM Pulse is just better than Cinders in everything except the end recovery penalty. But it's a better "Oh Crap!" power by far.
But necessary, no. Nothing is. I just can't see what would be better to take instead.
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I played my main Fire/Rad for about two years with Choking Cloud until I finally respec'd out of it. I based this decision not because I consider the power to be unworkable but more because I realized that my playstyle had evolved to where I was more "ranged oriented moving with around with Hover" than "stand next to a MOB and slowly cook them to death" oriented.
I use all the other main mez powers offered by these powersets (Char, Fire Cages, Flashfire, Cinders, EMP) and Hot Feet when soloing. With the mobile flexibility of Hovering I can better adapt to either team situations or solo situations and I have better "control" over my Imps because I can float over them and keep them more centered under me vertically.
I feel that with both Cinders and EMP as main hold powers (instead of considering EMP a "panic button" occasional power) I don't need to worry about maintaining Choking Cloud, an END-heavy toggle with RANDOM mez functionality. With Cinders, EMP and the Flashfire/Fire Cage combo my chance of holding MOBs becomes much more reliable and deterministic. Between my Imps and Hot Feet they are dead long before those click mezs wear off so having another toggle power constantly burning END to "reapply" mezs doesn't really prove to be all that useful in the long run.
People may argue that relying on EMP is bad because of the -Recovery disadvantage. But my counter to that is since I'm NOT running Choking Cloud my END situation has always been manageable. As a level 50 Fire/Rad I can constantly move from MOB to MOB firing EMP as often as possible without needing to eat blue pills or Resting to get END back.
Bottomline the constant toggle mez effect of Choking Cloud proved to be A) too random, B) too END costly and C) forced me to stand next to nasty MOBs effectively immobilizing myself. The recharge of my click mezs are more than fast enough to be reapplied on MOBs if needed so I don't need an additional END-hog toggle doing that for me whether I need it or not.
I tend to think Choking Cloud is good if you're more primarily solo-oriented and/or perhaps if you're not a well IO slotted level 50. I can certainly see situations where it could be a useful power and when I was lower level I did use it a lot. But again for me I ultimately found more reasons to drop it rather than keep it.
As always YMMV. 
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For my Fire/Rad troller, I rock Hot Feet, Choking Cloud, and World of Confusion from the Psy Mastery Pool...why? Because I CAN!
It's awesome being a walking melee death hero
Seriously, it all depends on your style of play, but I've always felt that Hot Feet and Choking Cloud together were uber squared. They compliment each other so well it should be outlawed.
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I agree that different people have different playstyles, and I don't want to suggest that yours is not valid at all . . . but a fire/rad skipping out on Choking Cloud is missing one of the best aspects of the character. I disagree that the combo works best for a solo controller . . . in fact, I suggest that the combo works amazingly well on teams rolling along who move faster than your one-shot AoE mez powers can recharge.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I played my main Fire/Rad for about two years with Choking Cloud until I finally respec'd out of it. I based this decision not because I consider the power to be unworkable but more because I realized that my playstyle had evolved to where I was more "ranged oriented moving with around with Hover" than "stand next to a MOB and slowly cook them to death" oriented.
I use all the other main mez powers offered by these powersets (Char, Fire Cages, Flashfire, Cinders, EMP) and Hot Feet when soloing. With the mobile flexibility of Hovering I can better adapt to either team situations or solo situations and I have better "control" over my Imps because I can float over them and keep them more centered under me vertically. I feel that with both Cinders and EMP as main hold powers (instead of considering EMP a "panic button" occasional power) I don't need to worry about maintaining Choking Cloud, an END-heavy toggle with RANDOM mez functionality. With Cinders, EMP and the Flashfire/Fire Cage combo my chance of holding MOBs becomes much more reliable and deterministic. Between my Imps and Hot Feet they are dead long before those click mezs wear off so having another toggle power constantly burning END to "reapply" mezs doesn't really prove to be all that useful in the long run. People may argue that relying on EMP is bad because of the -Recovery disadvantage. But my counter to that is since I'm NOT running Choking Cloud my END situation has always been manageable. As a level 50 Fire/Rad I can constantly move from MOB to MOB firing EMP as often as possible without needing to eat blue pills or Resting to get END back. Bottomline the constant toggle mez effect of Choking Cloud proved to be A) too random, B) too END costly and C) forced me to stand next to nasty MOBs effectively immobilizing myself. The recharge of my click mezs are more than fast enough to be reapplied on MOBs if needed so I don't need an additional END-hog toggle doing that for me whether I need it or not. I tend to think Choking Cloud is good if you're more primarily solo-oriented and/or perhaps if you're not a well IO slotted level 50. I can certainly see situations where it could be a useful power and when I was lower level I did use it a lot. But again for me I ultimately found more reasons to drop it rather than keep it. As always YMMV. |
The key to making Choking Cloud work is keeping some kind of distraction on the foes until Choking Cloud's odd pulsing hold can roll the dice enough times to hit. Flashfire's stun plus locking the foes in place with Fire Cages works great for this. Cinders can do it. But so can a Tank or other melee character who grabs aggro. On a fast moving team, a Fire/Rad is a perfect character for the "clean up crew," letting the Tank and the First Responders move on to the next group while the Crew finishes off the last few foes. Tank runs in to grab the aggro, and after the foes are gathered around the Tank, the Fire/Rad can go in and take the time needed for the group to be held with Choking Cloud and an occasional Char as needed. The Tank can then run off to the next group while the Fire/Rad with his Hot Feet and Imps (and other teammates) finish off the few who need to be finished off. By then, the Tank will have grabbed aggro and gathered the next group to rinse and repeat . . . and no waiting for Flashfire or Cinders or EM Pulse to recharge. That's the beauty of a toggle hold.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I disagree. It is an extra, unneeded control in almost every circumstance. It is a security blanket that makes you feel better. There is nothing wrong with that, but I would rather have my security blanket work in more varied situations, which is why I chose a different route (although not necessarily better, but I also contend it is not worse).|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
but a fire/rad skipping out on Choking Cloud is missing one of the best aspects of the character.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
The key to making Choking Cloud work is keeping some kind of distraction on the foes until Choking Cloud's odd pulsing hold can roll the dice enough times to hit. Flashfire's stun plus locking the foes in place with Fire Cages works great for this. Cinders can do it. But so can a Tank or other melee character who grabs aggro. On a fast moving team, a Fire/Rad is a perfect character for the "clean up crew," letting the Tank and the First Responders move on to the next group while the Crew finishes off the last few foes. Tank runs in to grab the aggro, and after the foes are gathered around the Tank, the Fire/Rad can go in and take the time needed for the group to be held with Choking Cloud and an occasional Char as needed. The Tank can then run off to the next group while the Fire/Rad with his Hot Feet and Imps (and other teammates) finish off the few who need to be finished off. By then, the Tank will have grabbed aggro and gathered the next group to rinse and repeat . . . and no waiting for Flashfire or Cinders or EM Pulse to recharge. That's the beauty of a toggle hold.
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CC is a fine power. But it does not in anyway define the Fire/Rad experience (although on a team of all Fire/Rads it stacks to goofiness, so if you do the super team thing, it may be more set defining). Outside of those heavy Rad teams, all the things I have ever seen you describe a Fire/Rad do is exactly how I play and it works just like you say, except I do not have or use CC.
How can I get the same experience and the same feeling for the combination you do and yet skip CC? Because CC is not a vital part of the combination.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
So you are relying upon RI to provide the damage mitigation that I use Choking Cloud to achieve? I certainly understand that method . . . I talk about it in my Earth/Rad guide. But I don't find it the same as Choking Cloud. A foe-anchored ToHit Debuff + Immob is not as good in my opinion. It doesn't travel with you and you need to make sure your anchor doesn't die or your mitigation is gone. Plus, you lose your ability to mitigate damage at range . . . while I stand in one place with CC + HF on, I can Fire Cage and RI another group while we kill off this one. Flashfire only lasts so long, and the Fire Cage + RI combo can provide pretty good mitigation at range . . . and I still have Cinders and EM Pulse in researve.
I think you are in the minority of experienced Fire/Rads on this one. Giving up Choking Cloud means giving up an effective control option on one of the few builds that can make best use of it.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Choking Cloud is golden on a fire/rad, I can't imagine life without it.
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I use both Chocking Cloud and EM Pluse on my Fire/rad. I have CC slotted for duration and the lockdown proc (I put one of these everywhere I can on every toon) I find it effective both solo and teaming, though less noticable on teams as mobs get one attack off, choke and then die.
EM pluse I use ofen, I have the recharge and recovery where as long as I have a blue, I rotate cinders and EMP every other mob solo, or use both for insta mag 6 hold on EB/avs then start stacking the chars.
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choking cloud necessary?
this thread seems to focus on fire/rad, but.....
if i roll a elec rad controller (your a controller, not a dom, so)......i can't help but think, using the elec powers, of JC (kd) the confuse, and the sleep, sliding in with choking cloud would also work like a charm with the immob, to drain everyone with Conductive Aura.
I would think it would be a great power, Rad was the first thing i thought to synergize with elec, just because of choking cloud. i just can't help but wonder if that would be a pve pwn soft control combo. Haven't played it yet though.
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The thing that makes Choking Cloud work is the combination of (a) some kind of initial AoE control that will prevent an alpha strike, and (b) some kind of PB AoE aura that will work with Choking Cloud to combine controls. Fire has Hot Feet, with its Slow+Afraid+Damage. Ice has Arctic Air, with Slow+Afraid+Confuse. And Elec has Conductive Aura, which drains Endurance.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Storm
choking cloud necessary?
this thread seems to focus on fire/rad, but..... if i roll a elec rad controller (your a controller, not a dom, so)......i can't help but think, using the elec powers, of JC (kd) the confuse, and the sleep, sliding in with choking cloud would also work like a charm with the immob, to drain everyone with Conductive Aura. I would think it would be a great power, Rad was the first thing i thought to synergize with elec, just because of choking cloud. i just can't help but wonder if that would be a pve pwn soft control combo. Haven't played it yet though. |
My Elec/Rad hasn't quite gotten there yet (he's 27), but I played one on Test with the level bump to 41. The combo of Static Field+Jolting Chain+Chain Fences, then run in with Choking Cloud+Conductive Aura was very effective control -- but no damage. So, I was able to stand in a group and hold/drain them, and then just waited for the Gremlins or teammates to do the killing. It had a lot of similarity to an Ice/Rad -- great control but little damage.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Question for you Local (And anyone else willing to jump on this one),|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
The thing that makes Choking Cloud work is the combination of (a) some kind of initial AoE control that will prevent an alpha strike, and (b) some kind of PB AoE aura that will work with Choking Cloud to combine controls. Fire has Hot Feet, with its Slow+Afraid+Damage. Ice has Arctic Air, with Slow+Afraid+Confuse. And Elec has Conductive Aura, which drains Endurance.
My Elec/Rad hasn't quite gotten there yet (he's 27), but I played one on Test with the level bump to 41. The combo of Static Field+Jolting Chain+Chain Fences, then run in with Choking Cloud+Conductive Aura was very effective control -- but no damage. So, I was able to stand in a group and hold/drain them, and then just waited for the Gremlins or teammates to do the killing. It had a lot of similarity to an Ice/Rad -- great control but little damage. |
How would you leverage CC with a Mind-Rad. I am debating the use of this power since I have an AoE Sleep to open a spawn with. I understand that this would not be as effective on a team, but solo I could see some potential for setting "contain".
My biggest concerns are two-fold. A) Terrify is a cone, which creates a problem for AoE damage dealing until I can grab an ancillary AoE like fireball. B) Mind-Rad has been a very slot-hungry build so far. I find myself looking at ways to minimize slots used on various powers that seem like they would be more useful overall than CC (Like total Dom, Mass Confusion and epic powers).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Mind doesn't have the PB AoE aura that makes Choking Cloud effective. I never planned to use CC on my Mind/Rad. Some people seem to like the power on controllers other than Fire, Ice and Elec, but those three are the only ones I would use the power on.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Question for you Local (And anyone else willing to jump on this one),
How would you leverage CC with a Mind-Rad. I am debating the use of this power since I have an AoE Sleep to open a spawn with. I understand that this would not be as effective on a team, but solo I could see some potential for setting "contain". My biggest concerns are two-fold. A) Terrify is a cone, which creates a problem for AoE damage dealing until I can grab an ancillary AoE like fireball. B) Mind-Rad has been a very slot-hungry build so far. I find myself looking at ways to minimize slots used on various powers that seem like they would be more useful overall than CC (Like total Dom, Mass Confusion and epic powers). |
Mind Control has plenty of AoE control without needing Choking Cloud. Mass Hypnosis works to set up AoE Containment . . . unless your team decides to wake up everything before you can fire off Terrify.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Yep, I have both Mass Hypno and Terrify recharging at about the same speed, so they work well solo. The real issue (if thats what you would call it), is that after I terrify a spawn, containment is done. Now how do I set contain again ? Mass Dom recharges too slow. So this makes me think of two seperate choices, both possible, but waaaayy too many slots too fit them both in. |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Mind doesn't have the PB AoE aura that makes Choking Cloud effective. I never planned to use CC on my Mind/Rad. Some people seem to like the power on controllers other than Fire, Ice and Elec, but those three are the only ones I would use the power on.
Mind Control has plenty of AoE control without needing Choking Cloud. Mass Hypnosis works to set up AoE Containment . . . unless your team decides to wake up everything before you can fire off Terrify. |
MH + Terrify and CC + Fireball.
Perhaps, I am missing something important though.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Very good points Local_Man. I enjoy discussions such as this and it is very helpful to hear other viewpoints and examples of gameplay scenarios as well as the whys and hows of what you are doing.
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I have to agree that CC is a bit better than controller RI at upping my mitigation. My reason for skipping CC is that I almost never need the extra mitigation from CC, so it is just an end drain to say I locked the spawns down, when I don't need to lock them in order to live (I do have other toggles draining my end in order to help me live though |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
But I don't find it the same as Choking Cloud. A foe-anchored ToHit Debuff + Immob is not as good in my opinion. It doesn't travel with you and you need to make sure your anchor doesn't die or your mitigation is gone. Plus, you lose your ability to mitigate damage at range . . . while I stand in one place with CC + HF on, I can Fire Cage and RI another group while we kill off this one. Flashfire only lasts so long, and the Fire Cage + RI combo can provide pretty good mitigation at range . . . and I still have Cinders and EM Pulse in researve.
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). It is true that you have to be mindful of where you need RI and where you don't. If I know I don't need it, I'll save it for an emergency. I'll toggle it off partway through a spawn once I have it locked down (as much as I need) in order to help make sure it is recharged if I am concerned about maybe needing it for an ambush or a close spawn that might aggro.
I am a minimalist when it comes to control. The less you need to use, the better, IME. Hot Feet is awesome, because it has control with damage. Ring of Fire, control with damage. Heck, I don't even use Fire Cages, because I rarely find I miss it. I have an admitted bias against control, because I think it is overused and often creates more problems than it solves.
All the situations where you list CC as useful, I find myself living through them just fine without it, while killing very fast. This is especially true on teams. I want to be clear, I am not challenging the fact that the power is potent once slotted. But if you would rather take your build a different way, you can skip it and still fly through tough missions, killing stuff extremely quickly. CC is not very helpful increasing kill speed, so I would need to see a mitigation (or spawn grouping) reason to take it. While it can help keep enemies inside my Hot Feet, I find that HF itself, FF, LR, my single target controls, and any teammates I may have do that plenty well.
I do play on teams that over aggro, but I can almost always use one of my other tools to prevent disaster. While I do take special glee from using Vengeance + Fallout, there are very few deaths on my teams that are caused because the mob I am standing in is not controlled. There are rare times where someone dies where I may have been able to save them if I had FF recharged, and it is possible I might have saved it if I had CC. Those times are not enough to make me want CC (after all, Vengeance + Fallout not only kills stuff, but it makes everyone else on the team into even more devastating killing machines).
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I think you are in the minority of experienced Fire/Rads on this one. Giving up Choking Cloud means giving up an effective control option on one of the few builds that can make best use of it.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
This is exactly the camp I am in. I always felt like I had tons of control leveling, and didn't really *need* stuff to stay in Hot Feet, since I have an AoE Immb...|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
No doubt it is a lost control option. Minority, majority, or plurality, the OP appears they may want to try out the non-CC route. It would appear their experience matches mine, never used it, never felt like I was lacking, kill fast, die rarely. |
And I kill plenty fast.
I still haven't decided to respec it in, I was actually surprised at the amount of love it is getting.
As I replied in the other FRad thread, the HF+CC combo is awesome, and I'm currently employing it to great effect, but it is entirely possible to play your FRad from 100% range and be damn good at it. I too leveled to 50 w/o it (of course, this was way back before even IOs) and never felt anything but uber (having 12+ imps out didn't hurt either). When I was doing the AV/GM soloing thing, I totally ditched both powers and never missed them. If I actually bothered w/dual builds, I'd make a ranged-only build and a PBAoE build; I'd use the latter more for teaming and casual gaming, of course.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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It seems to be a difference in playstyle and focus. I tend to want to maximize control on my controllers. I want to lock foes down, even if it takes longer to kill -- I figure high-speed killing is what teammates are for, and I can take my time when solo. Damage is certainly part of the job, but not the main part.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Very good points Local_Man. I enjoy discussions such as this and it is very helpful to hear other viewpoints and examples of gameplay scenarios as well as the whys and hows of what you are doing.
I have to agree that CC is a bit better than controller RI at upping my mitigation. My reason for skipping CC is that I almost never need the extra mitigation from CC, so it is just an end drain to say I locked the spawns down, when I don't need to lock them in order to live (I do have other toggles draining my end in order to help me live though ). It is true that you have to be mindful of where you need RI and where you don't. If I know I don't need it, I'll save it for an emergency. I'll toggle it off partway through a spawn once I have it locked down (as much as I need) in order to help make sure it is recharged if I am concerned about maybe needing it for an ambush or a close spawn that might aggro. I am a minimalist when it comes to control. The less you need to use, the better, IME. Hot Feet is awesome, because it has control with damage. Ring of Fire, control with damage. Heck, I don't even use Fire Cages, because I rarely find I miss it. I have an admitted bias against control, because I think it is overused and often creates more problems than it solves. All the situations where you list CC as useful, I find myself living through them just fine without it, while killing very fast. This is especially true on teams. I want to be clear, I am not challenging the fact that the power is potent once slotted. But if you would rather take your build a different way, you can skip it and still fly through tough missions, killing stuff extremely quickly. CC is not very helpful increasing kill speed, so I would need to see a mitigation (or spawn grouping) reason to take it. While it can help keep enemies inside my Hot Feet, I find that HF itself, FF, LR, my single target controls, and any teammates I may have do that plenty well. I do play on teams that over aggro, but I can almost always use one of my other tools to prevent disaster. While I do take special glee from using Vengeance + Fallout, there are very few deaths on my teams that are caused because the mob I am standing in is not controlled. There are rare times where someone dies where I may have been able to save them if I had FF recharged, and it is possible I might have saved it if I had CC. Those times are not enough to make me want CC (after all, Vengeance + Fallout not only kills stuff, but it makes everyone else on the team into even more devastating killing machines). No doubt it is a lost control option. Minority, majority, or plurality, the OP appears they may want to try out the non-CC route. It would appear their experience matches mine, never used it, never felt like I was lacking, kill fast, die rarely. |
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
As I mentioned before I played a few years with CC and now a few years without it. I feel I have the experience to truly understand the difference between those two build scenarios. All I can say (based on my opinion of course) is that I definitely feel I improved my overall gameplay without it.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
It seems to be a difference in playstyle and focus. I tend to want to maximize control on my controllers. I want to lock foes down, even if it takes longer to kill -- I figure high-speed killing is what teammates are for, and I can take my time when solo. Damage is certainly part of the job, but not the main part.
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I initially took the same tack you did with the idea of wanting to "maximize control" on my controller. Theoretically there's nothing wrong with that mindset. But in practice I realized that Fire/Rad offers so many tools to both effectively control and do damage that more often than not CC proved to be either a limiting factor or an overkill factor, either of which was less than ideal. There is a balance between controlling and damaging and to my mind I realize now that a CC build leans a bit too conservatively towards control. That amount of conservatism is frankly unnecessary.
Bottomline there's nothing strictly wrong with CC and I'm sure people who still use it do well with it. I just think it's pushing it to say if you don't use the Hotfeet/CC combo you're playing it "wrong" or some-such. I prefer to realize the powerset combo has more flexibility than that.
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I decided to finally IO out my Fire/Rad, and I am debating on Choking Cloud. I never used it while leveling, and didn't really notice dying a whole lot. With my build plan, I'm building pretty much for pure +recharge, and I am wondering how useful Choking Cloud would be.
This character will be used for general PvE, TFs/SFs and some farming.
And while we are at it... EM Pulse. Seems I never seem to use it other then an "Oh crap" moment, but with all the planned +Recharge in my build, it seems that Cinders will do that job just fine.