@ Umbral/Arcana - Theory Crafting for Shadow Punch & DM
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-09-07 09:32 in Scrappers
Wow, nicely done, and has given me a new way to look at builds.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
The typical way of including damage procs in DPS calculations is to take the damage, multiply by the chance for, and add to the base damage. Therefore, a Hecatomb proc does 107.1 damage times 0.33 chance to fire, or 35.343 damage added to that of Shadow Punch.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Yes Smersh- but Mids does that for me here to give me a basic average of the damage with that in mind, but that's not what I'm focusing on here.
I'd like Arcana, Umbral, or another long time DM vet to comment on the theory behind two SP's in 'roughly' the time it takes for one SL, and if that seems to be the better option if I have the necessary procs triggering enough (like on the build above).
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
Cast times for the two chains including arcanatime:
MG, Smite, SL, Smite = 6.732
MG, SP, Smite, SP, Smite = 6.732
Well... that's kinda groovy.
If I can find the time, unless one of the others beats me to it, I'll work out how much recharge is needed in each power to see if your build can pull it off. If it does work, I'm going to have to take another look at my dm/wp brute.
Be well, people of CoH.
I get the feeling that getting Smite to recharge in .83 seconds is going to be a tough project, Bill.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade! OK, this intrigues me greatly. If I can get even more DPS out of my DM/SR then I'll beyond thrilled.
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Me, too. (I should REALLY be working instead of doing this....)|
Originally Posted by Smersh
I get the feeling that getting Smite to recharge in .83 seconds is going to be a tough project, Bill.
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Chain of MG, SP, Smite, SP, Smite
Arcanatimes for each:
2.244, 1.056, 1.188, 1.056, 1.188
Recharges at base:
MG: 15
Smite: 6
SP: 3
Recharge reduction needed:
MG will need (15-4.488)/4.488 = 234%
Smite needs (6-1.056)/1.056 = 468% (Yea, that ain't happening.)
SP needs (3-1.188)/1.188 = 153%
Sorry, OP. There's no way in hell you're going to get enough recharge in smite for that chain to be possible.
EDIT: Still betting that MG, Gloom, SL, Smite, repeat is going to be the best I can do on my brute. Sure hope BAB gets some alternating animations in there some day.
Be well, people of CoH.
Not sure if I'm missing something or if you guys are, so bear with me here...That build above is a 1.91 recharge on Smite, or 1.88 if I really wanted it to be just by re-slotting Tactics with Adjusted Targeting.
Per my comments above, thats like me waiting all of...like half a second to a full second before launching Smite again...? Thats not that big of deal and still puts the timing of the chain pretty close in line with the top DPS one.
Are you guys thinking its more than that? The wait time is truly minimal for that second Smite. I accounted for that brief lapse in my OP above when asking the questions, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something here?
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
If Smite is recharging in 1.91 seconds that means you must have a total recharge of 214% for smite.
That will turn the chain into 2.244, 1.056, 1.188, 1.056, .854 pause, 1.188 for a total chain time of 7.586 versus the prior 6.732.
Picking random numbers from the ether, if said chain was at 100 DPS at 6.732 it will drop to 88.74 DPS at 7.586 seconds so that pause is a considerable hit to the damage output.
Later on tonight I can punch your build into my spreadsheet to get a better handle on this.
Be well, people of CoH.
Yeah but thats if the Procs do not fire, right? My thinking was that if the Procs Fire-maybe even just 3 firings out of the 7 opportunities in that string- my chain easily becomes superior. Is this incorrect? If not, I think I'd go with my build without a doubt. When you start talking a difference of less than a second in the overall chain times with the chance for more procs to hit over time, it seems like that would have much more of an upside if you didn't care about or count on the healing aspect of Siphon Life.
For sure though, Bill- plug it in and let me know what you come up with- thank you for your help, btw!
Im curious to see some of the numbers. I know in-game, my chain feels faster because of the two SP's in roughly the same time as one SL. When the Procs fire multiple times in a chain, the build really does seem like a chainsaw chewing through bosses- especially if I get a Siphon off first on 2-3 mobs.
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
Using your build, you've got a 10 second downtime on hasten, but I'm going to ignore that for now. I'm also going to use the stated recharge times in Mids for each power.
Your chain of MG, SP, Smite, SP, Smite will have two pauses. The first before the second smite and then another before MG fires off again. The values of those two pauses are .672 and the aforementioned .854 for an extra total pause value of 1.526 seconds.
Using that pause and 3 enemies in range to fuel Soul Drain, I put the DPS of that chain at 182.568
For reference, if there were no pauses at all in the chain, the DPS would be 223.953. You can see just how much pauses negatively affect DPS. However, as stated, this would be impossible without outside buffs.
Using your same build, but changing the attack chain so that no pauses exist, I can get a chain of MG, SP, Smite, SP, SL and it does 211.368 DPS.
Again using the build as show, the chain of MG, Smite, SL, Smite, there would be a pause before MG fires again of .702 and would do 198.085 DPS. If you could get more recharge in MG and remove that pause, the DPS would go up to 218.741.
Be well, people of CoH.
I strongly suspect that gaps in chains round up to the next 0.132 seconds, since you can only do things on server ticks, though calling 0.132 a server tick is overly simplistic, and I'd need to refresh myself on what's really going on since I've used that shorthand for so long. That would further negatively impact chains with gaps.
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Ohhh, that's nasty, man. By the by... check the scrapper forum shortly. 
Be well, people of CoH.
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Have you check out smite-MG-smite-Gloom-SP? Course you're not gonna have the healing from SL but I'm thinking it would be much better DPS with both purples in Smite and Gloom. Putting SL in place of SP would be slightly lower but would work as well.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
EDIT: Still betting that MG, Gloom, SL, Smite, repeat is going to be the best I can do on my brute. Sure hope BAB gets some alternating animations in there some day.
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Hmmm maybe only use SL when you need too...
Edit:
ahhhh wait up....
Smite-Gloom-MG-Smite-Gloom-SP(SL) would actually be much better. Though SP on that chain might be a bit hard to get.... edit2: SP won't work... edit3: wow gonna need a lot of recharge for this... ignore this crap
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No, I don't think they do. I think at worst gaps round to the nearest 0.125 seconds. The 0.132s ArcanaTime gap considers having to expire both the combat clock and the animation frame clock in conjunction. But during an attack chain gap, the rooted time window bound to the animation clock will have already expired.
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Originally Posted by Werner
I strongly suspect that gaps in chains round up to the next 0.132 seconds, since you can only do things on server ticks, though calling 0.132 a server tick is overly simplistic, and I'd need to refresh myself on what's really going on since I've used that shorthand for so long. That would further negatively impact chains with gaps.
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Even if it's lower DPS than the MG - SM - SL - SM - Repeat chain, it looks like you're getting plenty of DPS.
Even if it's not better, I'd say go with it if you prefere that chain over the other. Still more than enough to solo those AVs and Pylons.
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Bill thats good info bud, thank you. I may go back to the drawing board with some changes.
I think the key thing I was trying to discern here is- if I put two Procs in Shadow Punch (one of which is a Purp) and use it in rapid succession on a constant DPS chain, gaps aside, would it be better over time on like a boss or AV considering multiple procs firing.
We now see the average damage is a bit below the top recommended chain, but thats still averaged out with Procs considered. We are not using the assumption that the procs may fire 4, 5, or 6 times during that chain, which would seem like it would vault the DPS over the recommended top DPS chain at times- maybe more often than not if the purp and other Neg DMG proc in SP is firing off multiple times in each chain.
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
The thing about that line of thinking is that it's just as likely to have a string of not firing off as it is to have a good string. The RNG in this game is a fickle beast. That's why with stick with the averages.
EDIT: I should note, even knowing that using SP may not give the best results, I can't tell you how sick I am of the MG, SL, Gloom, Smite chain I use right now on my brute. It goes Left Hand, Alternates, Left Hand, Left Hand, repeat.
I'm seriously thinking about putting SP back in my build just so that I can have some damn variety.
Be well, people of CoH.
True.
Yeah it's definitely more free-flowing of a chain, for sure. I don;t even think Siphon Life was meant to include in a primary attack chain, so it's frustrating to see that using it in a string benefits more than a power like SP that is a quick, rapid firing attack MEANT to be there as part of an essential attack chain when DM was initially being created/built.
MG is already slow enough, but to throw SL in there as an essential part of the same top DPS attack chain is painful for me after years of using SP. I'm going to play with it a bit more and prolly optimize/improve the build a bit more from here and still use SP instead of SL.
To me, (and I think someone above pointed this out) the difference in DPS is still small enough to where I don;t feel bad using two SP's instead of one SL. I might use SL as a finisher on that string to improve DPS a bit: MG > SP > Smite > SP > SL
But past that I'm not going to spam it. I refuse! ; P
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
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I think you may be reading too much into those powers when you start to describe their intent. The powers simply are what they are, regardless of what you or I think they are meant to be. Issues ago, Siphon Life was a very poor attack and used only as a heal, but when Dark Melee was revamped its damage was increased. This suggests to me that regardless of how it was intended issues ago, it's now meant to do a lot of damage.
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Originally Posted by Psion1
Yeah it's definitely more free-flowing of a chain, for sure. I don;t even think Siphon Life was meant to include in a primary attack chain, so it's frustrating to see that using it in a string benefits more than a power like SP that is a quick, rapid firing attack MEANT to be there as part of an essential attack chain when DM was initially being created/built.
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On the flip side of that, I would have vastly preferred for SL's heal portion to have been cranked up rather than its damage.
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Originally Posted by Chaos_String
I think you may be reading too much into those powers when you start to describe their intent. The powers simply are what they are, regardless of what you or I think they are meant to be. Issues ago, Siphon Life was a very poor attack and used only as a heal, but when Dark Melee was revamped its damage was increased. This suggests to me that regardless of how it was intended issues ago, it's now meant to do a lot of damage.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by Chaos_String
I think you may be reading too much into those powers when you start to describe their intent. The powers simply are what they are, regardless of what you or I think they are meant to be. Issues ago, Siphon Life was a very poor attack and used only as a heal, but when Dark Melee was revamped its damage was increased. This suggests to me that regardless of how it was intended issues ago, it's now meant to do a lot of damage.
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Not really. It's pretty obvious what they meant Siphon Life for when designing the DM set, just looking at it's stats and use for years before it's revamp. Thats a very common sense look at things.It was meant to be a heal, but they then changed it and improved it's damage after years of people skipping it and saying it's useless.
Now it's a grey area now in terms of what it's there for- it just so happens the damage is now a great asset to put in an attack chain, and that might have been what the new intention of it is. I'm just saying if that's the case with the new intent, I don't agree with it. Thats all. I'd rather have a free-flowing, fast-recharging damage chain unlike what DM has turned into witht his new chain. It makes the set feel clunky.
"Hey I'm a Dark Melee scrapper, but I only use one punch attack in my DPS attack chain!"
Conceptually it doesn't even make sense, and it's just a minor nuisance.
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
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That seems pretty clear.|
Originally Posted by Psion1
it just so happens the damage is now a great asset to put in an attack chain, and that might have been what the new intention of it is.
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| I'm just saying if that's the case with the new intent, I don't agree with it. |
It's thematic. It's not hitting someone in the face, but it is sucking some of their life out. That ought to hurt.
And remember that the MG>Sm>SL>Sm requires a fair bit of recharge from IO sets. Shadow Punch isn't pointless until you reach those levels of recharge: at lower levels you'd chain MG>Sm>SP>SL>Sm>SP. Lots of sets have substandard tier 1 or 2 attacks that you'll use until you have enough recharge to get rid of them. Shadow Punch is hardly alone in that regard.
Anyway, if you don't like the feel of MG>Sm>SL>Sm, then feel free to use an older, buzzsaw attack chain. They're still good. Just not the best. And I for one think that's okay. I'd rather use a signature power like Siphon Life than skip it.
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The devs usually don't buy the argument that adding an option invalidates a previously good one. If DM has a nice attack chain that doesn't include SL, buffing SL so that it just so happens a chain that includes SL at a particular (and high) level of recharge edges out the chain with SP doesn't mean DM no longer has a nice attack chain without SL. That attack chain still exists. If a player chooses not to use it for strictly min/max reasons, they lose the right to complain about the conceptual clunkiness of it.|
Originally Posted by Psion1
Not really. It's pretty obvious what they meant Siphon Life for when designing the DM set, just looking at it's stats and use for years before it's revamp. Thats a very common sense look at things.It was meant to be a heal, but they then changed it and improved it's damage after years of people skipping it and saying it's useless.
Now it's a grey area now in terms of what it's there for- it just so happens the damage is now a great asset to put in an attack chain, and that might have been what the new intention of it is. I'm just saying if that's the case with the new intent, I don't agree with it. Thats all. I'd rather have a free-flowing, fast-recharging damage chain unlike what DM has turned into witht his new chain. It makes the set feel clunky. "Hey I'm a Dark Melee scrapper, but I only use one punch attack in my DPS attack chain!" Conceptually it doesn't even make sense, and it's just a minor nuisance. |
In other words, never say you do something strictly for numerical reasons and then complain about its appearance. Of all the people that believe this is valid criticism, none of them appear to be CoX game designers.
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The highest DPS 4-string attack chain for DM has been tested as MG >Smite >SL >Smite. I won't lie when I say I've always felt that chain feels slow and clunky for a cumulative 6 second chain (maybe a bit more with real activiation/usage times).
I continue to feel Shadow Punch is a more essential DPS tool than Siphon life due to Siphons animation time. Why though, considering SL is much more damage than SP?
With the below build in mind, it just FEELS like, with a .89 recharge on SP and .83 cast time (even taking into account REAL cast/usage times), I can get two SP's off in the time it takes to cast one Siphon Life, therefore doing more damage in the same amount of time, and giving more procs the chance to rapid fire over time. So in essence the attack chain would be MG >SP >Smite >SP >Smite instead of MG>SM>SL>Smite.
Here's the build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
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Blood Reign Buzzsaw: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Set Bonus Totals:
My calculation has the usual recommended top-DPS DM chain for this build at around 1,216.9 in around 6 seconds, and my build is 1,261.80 in a little under 7 seconds (like 6.7-6.8) due to the VERY small .50-.95 I have to wait for Smite to fully recharge after the second SP.
So thats going to put the standard DPS build @ 204-205 DPS p/second on average, and my build at 189-191 DPS p/second on average. However- that's an average. When my Procs activate (especially when multiple Procs fire in the same chain- i.e., Hecatomb Proc firing on each of the SP's in the chain) Im thinking my build would far surpass that of the typical recommended DM attack string. Am I correct in theory, or I am just hopelessly grasping here because I want to take my DM off the shelf after parking him for three years? Is there anything I'm missing? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Also, just to head off any "You need SL for the Heal" argument- Due to the defensive strength of the build already w/high melee defense and Shadow Meld quickly recharging, I don't need Siphon Life in an attack chain- so the heal element is worthless. Right now I'm looking @ a raw DPS/Proc heavy build theory.
Also...let me know what you guys think about the build in general if you don't mind. Once Fitness becomes inherent, this build should shine even more once I can put Combat Jumping in there and have Quick Recovery + Stamina, and/or use my Ninja Run as my travel power freeing up another power slot. It should be an invincible buzzsaw build tailor made for AV killing.
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