@ Umbral/Arcana - Theory Crafting for Shadow Punch & DM
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-09-07 09:32 in Scrappers
We're beginning to argue conjecture at this point, but I do think it's two-fold Arcana...
In a nutshell, I dislike that a clunky feeling attack chain is now 'statistically' putting out more damage/DPS than the attack chain I liked previously that felt and looked smooth and natural for the set. I have a problem with both subjects! ; P
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
Quote:
That is exactly what I'm stating. If you have a choice between two cars, one of which has a great paint job and 300 horsepower, and another car with a crappy paint job and 308 horsepower, you can complain all you want about the lousy paint job of the latter car after you buy it, but who are you going to complain to? The dealer that you bought the car from, after *knowingly* buying the car with the lousy paint job when another option was available?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That really doesn't make sense to me. That's akin to stating that I'm not allowed to complain about a car's crappy paint job if I bought it for its horsepower.
|
Don't try complaining to me, 'cause I'll be half a mile away driving off in the other car.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Also, whether the SL chain is "clunky" is more a matter of taste than objective fact. So its really more like both paint jobs are fine, and Bill bought the car with the slightly higher horsepower, then began complaining that he hates that particular color.
|
Originally Posted by Psion1
We're beginning to argue conjecture at this point, but I do think it's two-fold Arcana...
In a nutshell, I dislike that a clunky feeling attack chain is now 'statistically' putting out more damage/DPS than the attack chain I liked previously that felt and looked smooth and natural for the set. I have a problem with both subjects! ; P |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Torque being equal, I'd take the sexy paint job and 300hp. 8hp isn't going to win you a lot of races.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That is exactly what I'm stating. If you have a choice between two cars, one of which has a great paint job and 300 horsepower, and another car with a crappy paint job and 308 horsepower
|
Quote:
Now this is just getting silly.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That is exactly what I'm stating. If you have a choice between two cars, one of which has a great paint job and 300 horsepower, and another car with a crappy paint job and 308 horsepower, you can complain all you want about the lousy paint job of the latter car after you buy it, but who are you going to complain to? The dealer that you bought the car from, after *knowingly* buying the car with the lousy paint job when another option was available?
Don't try complaining to me, 'cause I'll be half a mile away driving off in the other car. |
There aren't two cars. There is one car that has the magical quality of losing horse power as the paint job gets shinier.
The point is that while I understand why you posted what you did, it was kinda silly to do so.
Complaining about the cosmetics of a set has nothing to with the set's performance. You know this. Psion1 knows this. We all know this.
I don't want alternating hand animations for all the powers where it would make sense to have them because I want a specific attack chain to look cool, I want them so that ALL attack chains will look cool.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Do we now. I was specifically responding to this:|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Complaining about the cosmetics of a set has nothing to with the set's performance. You know this. Psion1 knows this. We all know this.
|
Quote:
| Now it's a grey area now in terms of what it's there for- it just so happens the damage is now a great asset to put in an attack chain, and that might have been what the new intention of it is. I'm just saying if that's the case with the new intent, I don't agree with it. Thats all. I'd rather have a free-flowing, fast-recharging damage chain unlike what DM has turned into with this new chain. It makes the set feel clunky. |
When it comes to balancing philosophy, being called silly is the least I've been called. It really no longer bothers me. In fact, if a balancing rule or perspective isn't trivialized or ridiculed at least a couple of times, I start to wonder if its completely wrong.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I never called You silly, A, I called posting what you posted in response to what Psion posted silly.
How long did I run with the suboptimal attack chain of followup, slash, focus, swipe knowing fully well that replacing swipe with strike (which I eventually, grudgingly did) would increase my ST DPS?
It's no different than what Psion is stating here. He thinks it sucks that in order to get the higher DPS output the uglier, clunkier attack chain must be used.
There's nothing incorrect about that opinion. It did not necessitate a "you're wrong for thinking that" response. I don't recall such a response from anyone every time I posted how ugly and clunky strike and eviscerate are.
In the end, wouldn't it have been better to state "them's the breaks, if you want the higher damage output you have to settle for the ugly" rather than trying to dictate what someone can or can't call ugly?
Be well, people of CoH.
I used Siphon Life in my attack chain pre-buff. I was after survivability to solo AVs, not DPS. I couldn't care less how it was "meant" to be used, if there even is such a thing.
Yes, the chain FEELS clunky to me. But the numbers make me happier than the animations make me sad. And I just figure I'm a warlock with all the hand waving, and not strictly a melee combatant.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Similar thing with Louis, Werner. His last body channeled cosmic and flame based energies from Hell, his current body channels blood magic. All this talk about the loss of the punchy feel of the set is making me want to push him back into the old chainsaw build just for the halibut.
Be well, people of CoH.
lol... Bill you're cracking me up in this thread, man.
Run back to the halibut buddy! ; P
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
Quote:
The thread about alternate animations might indicate that something like this could occur. How hard would it be to just mimic the exact same Siphon Life animation we currently have, but make it opposite handed? How hard would it be to make it alternate, like Brawl does? Maybe allow the Stun or Focused Burst animations as alternates?
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But claiming that all of the powers in the optimal chain should match your personal preferences is now connecting min/maxing to power choice options. This game does not, and as far as I can tell will never honor such a request.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Alternate animations won't make Siphon Life execute faster, and the complaint seemed focused on the fact the attack is slower than the tier1/2 attacks, not that it visually looked odd. The complaint about SL was compared to the relatively long animation time of Midnight Grasp.
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The thread about alternate animations might indicate that something like this could occur. How hard would it be to just mimic the exact same Siphon Life animation we currently have, but make it opposite handed? How hard would it be to make it alternate, like Brawl does? Maybe allow the Stun or Focused Burst animations as alternates?
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Haven't really ran or seen the chain smite-SL-smite-MG.... but I kinda like the animation of SL on its own
Alternating hands wouldn't be that bad either. Or maybe give us the option to use left, right or alternate hands. What if my Broad Sword guy is left handed and I wanna put the sheild on the right arm... hmmm that would be kinda neat 
Quote:
I never said anything about what people can choose to call ugly or not. What I specifically said was:|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I never called You silly, A, I called posting what you posted in response to what Psion posted silly.
How long did I run with the suboptimal attack chain of followup, slash, focus, swipe knowing fully well that replacing swipe with strike (which I eventually, grudgingly did) would increase my ST DPS? It's no different than what Psion is stating here. He thinks it sucks that in order to get the higher DPS output the uglier, clunkier attack chain must be used. There's nothing incorrect about that opinion. It did not necessitate a "you're wrong for thinking that" response. I don't recall such a response from anyone every time I posted how ugly and clunky strike and eviscerate are. In the end, wouldn't it have been better to state "them's the breaks, if you want the higher damage output you have to settle for the ugly" rather than trying to dictate what someone can or can't call ugly? |
Quote:
| In other words, never say you do something strictly for numerical reasons and then complain about its appearance. |
Similarly, buffing Siphon Life doesn't alter the character of the set for those that want to focus on speedier attacks. Those attacks are still there. No one forces people to min/max attack chains. If the min/max chain "forces" you to use a power that takes more than a second to execute, thems the breaks. Under no circumstances would I, for even one second, consider that a power like SL shouldn't have its damage buffed because it might suddenly become advantageous to use. If it should be buffed, it gets buffed. If it shouldn't, it doesn't. But how that buff would affect attack chain min/maxers frankly didn't, doesn't, and wouldn't factor into my thinking.
All evidence suggests it doesn't for the powers team either. It barely enters their minds when it comes to balancing nerfs, much less balancing buffs. But, I'm not the thought-police. I don't tell people how to spend their time.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
You may be right, Psion1 mentioned that.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Alternate animations won't make Siphon Life execute faster, and the complaint seemed focused on the fact the attack is slower than the tier1/2 attacks, not that it visually looked odd. The complaint about SL was compared to the relatively long animation time of Midnight Grasp.
|
However, BillZ's complaints seemed more aesthetic. Much more like something that could be satisfied with an alternate animation.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Arcanaville,
I'm going to continue using strike in my attack chain until I-19 strictly for numerical reasons and I'm going to continue to complain about its appearance.
And both decisions are correct.
Be well, people of CoH.
Anyone considered using Soul Mastery's Dark Blast in that chain? I've been able to replace Scorch on my Fire/SD Scrapper for a DB, Cremate, Incin 3 hit chain. So far everything seems fluid.
50 SM/WP Brute - D Block
50 FM/ELA Brute - Raging Daemon
50 Acher/MM Blaster - Dark Reiver
50 FM/SD - Firestorm Brigade
You were right to fear me...
Quote:
That's fine. Just don't start saying that Strike shouldn't be better than Swipe, because then you're forced to use the uglier attack.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Arcanaville,
I'm going to continue using strike in my attack chain until I-19 strictly for numerical reasons and I'm going to continue to complain about its appearance. And both decisions are correct. |
Jerk 4 Life
In brightest day, in blackest night/No evil shall escape my sight/Let those who worship evil's might/Beware my power ... Green Lantern's light!/(Meowth, that's right!)
My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.
Quote:
I'd never make that argument because I'd know it wouldn't go anywhere. And I realize that this is precisely what Arcanaville is arguing against, but from time to time I feel the need to yank her chain when she throws out statements of absolute truth that aren't so absolute.|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
That's fine. Just don't start saying that Strike shouldn't be better than Swipe, because then you're forced to use the uglier attack.
|
Strike needs to be fixed because it doesn't look like a strike. It looks like you're trying to lightly graze the gut of the enemy you're attacking. It has a pause on the end of it that disrupts the flow of the attack chain. It's ugly.
But I would never make the claim that it *should* do less damage than swipe because I'd rather use swipe.
This whole back and forth began because Arcana felt this was the argument Psion was making and perhaps he was. I didn't take his comments in that way. I took them as he was stating that he didn't like how the once fast and punchy set was turned into a slow plodding set when you do build towards performance.
Arcanaville is correct in stating that we can all still have the old punchy feeling of the set as long as we're willing to accept the performance hit for doing so. Just like we can build energy melee to be a fast attack set and pay the performance penalty price for it.
This in no way means that this fact doesn't suck.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
And that's fine. And if you say you're forced to use a power whose appearance you don't like, or that the powerset is poorly designed to force you to do so, I'm still going to state that is false regardless.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Arcanaville,
I'm going to continue using strike in my attack chain until I-19 strictly for numerical reasons and I'm going to continue to complain about its appearance. And both decisions are correct. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I'm reminded of the stories from yore about how some parents would jab their lefty offspring in the left hand with a fork everytime they tried to use it to eat.
I must now dismiss your attempt to block me from complaining about all the left hand only animations in the set.
Be well, people of CoH.