Enhancements


Biospark

 

Posted

Eliminate DOs. Replace current DO drops with TOs. Make Training enhancers have the same value as DOs. Eliminate level 10 common IOs.

This makes slotting lowbies make more sense. This reduces a vast amount of clutter at stores. This makes the game much less confusing for new people.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

I didn't have any trouble grasping the difference between TO's, DO's, and SO's when I first played the game. The concept of "better but more expensive" shouldn't be lost on most people. What I was confused about was which DO's and SO's did what, but it didn't take long for me to realize it was color coded.

I don't see any reason to get rid of level 10 common IO's either. Introducing the IO system as another option early is helpful, even if vets know how pathetic the bonuses are.


 

Posted

Just curious, is this a suggestion, and idea, or a demand?

Eitherway, while TOs seem worthless to me, as I personally rarely will slot anything until lvl 12, when I can put in lvl 15 DOs, they still have a purpose. For those newbies who don't have high level alts, and the marketing voodoo to make a ton of inf, it's how they can get their starting capital.

And don't you dare touch the lvl 10 IOs. Because when I DO actually slot before level 12, one of my high level alts, emails those to my lowbies, cause hey, crafting is easier once memorized, and having something is better than nothing.

What I would suggest instead, to help clear up the clutter at stores is add in Filter tabs. For example. Ghost Falcon. If I'm a Mutation origin, and I shop with him, I have to scroll through and find in the massive inventory for the section of what I can actually use. If there was a way to just click a tab at the top to filter out all things that weren't Mutation, it would be easier. So a tab for each origin.

And at the DO vendors, have a tab that seperates out the TOs, and for example the Mutation/Natural DOs from the Natural/Technology DOs.


 

Posted

Eliminating DOs eliminates both a training and a profit step.

If you went straight from TOs to SOs, I'd say you'd confuse new people MORE. Why? Because for 22-25 levels, they'd be able to slot anything and everything that drops. Then, suddenly - *wham* "Why can't I slot this? What do these rings mean?"

DOs are more powerful than TOs, but trade off for a slight restriction on who can use them (by origin.) However, by having the dual origins, more people CAN use them when they do drop. And they get used to the origin coding.

I do agree that the stores need a filter, however.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniac_Raid View Post
Just curious, is this a suggestion, and idea, or a demand?
Is this the Demand and Ideas forum? Can I make it a demand and have that work? Because if I could, I'd demand it, but since I can't, I'll stick to suggesting it.

I also would like to demand a few other things... ah, nvm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Eliminating DOs eliminates both a training and a profit step.
Well, it eliminates a step, but I believe the learning curve from TO to SO to IO would be smoother than the current learning of TO to DO to SO to IO. SOs are pretty easy to figure out, there are 5 types. There are 10 types of DOs and the half graphics are a bit harder to see than the full SO graphics. It is also easier to remember, I am magic so I need the magic store or the magic SO, as opposed to I am magic so I can slot the ones that also have natural or mutation, but not the natural/tech or mutation/science, which half of the DO is my origin again?

I think it would also be nicer if people were actually rewarded with results for slotting enhancements as opposed to whatever it is TOs do.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
/unsigned
Weak. If you're gonna go with that answer, at least say /jranger.


 

Posted

Back in my day, sonny, we only had SOs to get to. Once you go there, you were done.

Unless you went to the block parties in the Hive; then you could get those fancy Hammys that nobody talks about anymore!

Ah the good old days...


 

Posted

Or remove Origin specific Enhancements.

Is there a reason why there needs to be a Mutant Acc level 30 SO and a Natural Acc Level 30 SO and a .....?

I chose a Magic Origin toon, but the story arc im doing only drops Tech. So either i DONT chose that arc which I may like (story actually entices me), or I suffer with getting drops I cant use, sell them for 1/2 value and spend that cash plus another amount of the same value buying my Origin SO's.

Im not saying get rid of the Origins, just the different Enhancement Origins.

This means you can still go to the Vendor/QM/etc to buy the level 20/25/30/35/... enhancements you actually need or hope to get the level 26/27/28/etc drops that you need.

Feedback appreciated


 

Posted

I like my DO very much, thanks, and would prefer to leave them as is. TO, however, I don't give a fig about. Those are the ones that should be removed from the game (if anything is to be removed) like the litter drops they are.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Well, it eliminates a step, but I believe the learning curve from TO to SO to IO would be smoother than the current learning of TO to DO to SO to IO. SOs are pretty easy to figure out, there are 5 types. There are 10 types of DOs and the half graphics are a bit harder to see than the full SO graphics. It is also easier to remember, I am magic so I need the magic store or the magic SO, as opposed to I am magic so I can slot the ones that also have natural or mutation, but not the natural/tech or mutation/science, which half of the DO is my origin again?
Two things:

1. You assume Inventions are the next logical step from SOs, when the developers have made it clear that the game is balanced to where SOs are sufficient.

2. The distinction between enhancements is in the manual. You don't need to remember anything nearly as complicated as you describe here. You just need to figure out which border corresponds to your origin (which is in the manual) and then use enhancements that have this half-border.

I don't feel this is needed, especially since it removes a lot of the progression from Training to DO to SO and the improving percentages. The way the game scales with level, I'd rather have that sense of progression. Moreover, putting down DO level enhancements at level 1 where enemy stats are balanced essentially against having no enhancements at all would mean your performance would start out higher and decrease a lot more obviously than it does now.

Not a fan, I'm afraid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunkiLord View Post
Weak. If you're gonna go with that answer, at least say /jranger.
I did type something up but for once took the time to read it before posting and decided I was tired and everything sounded rude so I opted to just unsign rather than irritate the mods.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
1. You assume Inventions are the next logical step from SOs, when the developers have made it clear that the game is balanced to where SOs are sufficient.
The fact that SOs are sufficient does not mean that IOs are not the next logical step from SOs. IOs are the next logical step after SOs, but they are an optional step (while SOs are optional as well, they are pretty dang easy to handle so most people will take that step up from TOs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
2. The distinction between enhancements is in the manual. You don't need to remember anything nearly as complicated as you describe here. You just need to figure out which border corresponds to your origin (which is in the manual) and then use enhancements that have this half-border.
I know it is not extremely complicated. It is just an unneeded extra little complication. And it clutters things unnecessarily. And it keeps TOs as worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't feel this is needed, especially since it removes a lot of the progression from Training to DO to SO and the improving percentages. The way the game scales with level, I'd rather have that sense of progression. Moreover, putting down DO level enhancements at level 1 where enemy stats are balanced essentially against having no enhancements at all would mean your performance would start out higher and decrease a lot more obviously than it does now.
I agree it is not needed, but I obviously feel it would be an improvement.

I think you are overtstating the progression, since after a brief time playing, most people learn that the progression is: Ignore TOs, probably get DOs at 12, switch to SOs at 22, if inclined learn and use IOs. I'd rather the sense of progression be: use TOs until 22, then switch to SOs, if inclined learn and use IOs. This would make drops more useful as well, and I think it is always interesting when I am encouraged to slot what drops as opposed to the current situation where I vendor or market almost all my drops early game.

You are definitely overstating the power level of slotting DOs early game. Level 1-7 go by so fast and you have so few slots, it is irrelevant. At 8-12 the enemies are powerful enough for those few slots you have to be useful, and I would like them to be that as opposed to just leave them empty because TOs are garbage. From 12 on, DO level power is already available, so my suggestion is no change there. I think my idea would actually make you feel more powerful as you level because you are getting useful slots and enhancements.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Eliminate DOs. Replace current DO drops with TOs. Make Training enhancers have the same value as DOs. Eliminate level 10 common IOs.

This makes slotting lowbies make more sense. This reduces a vast amount of clutter at stores. This makes the game much less confusing for new people.
Why not just have TOs for all levels as the store-bought enhancer of choice. Then make Single Origins the dropped enhancements of choice. TOs would be at 20% (+3 value), while SOs would be at their current strength.

This way players could sell SO's they don't need to buy TO's until the proper SO's dropped for their character. This may even create a low-level market for SOs, since players of different origins recognize that they have SOs that would be in demand by other players.

I agree on the IOs too. I have only ever made level 15s and 25s, rarely 20s. But anymore, I just wait till 22 and make level 25 IOs and live off DOs until then. Seems to work just fine.

P.S. Having read some of the responses Strato, I have to agree 100% that DOs are unnecessarily complicated. I have (recently even) purchased the wrong type of DO because of the many types. TOs and SOs would be much more elegant and simple to deal with. so.... /signed


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Is this the Demand and Ideas forum? Can I make it a demand and have that work? Because if I could, I'd demand it, but since I can't, I'll stick to suggesting it.

I also would like to demand a few other things... ah, nvm.
I demand you make your suggestions look more like suggestions and not demands!

Ok, seriously now, while I kind of get where you're coming from, removing DO's doesn't really seem like it's necessary. For example...

[qoute]Level 1-7 go by so fast and you have so few slots, it is irrelevant. At 8-12 the enemies are powerful enough for those few slots you have to be useful, and I would like them to be that as opposed to just leave them empty because TOs are garbage. From 12 on, DO level power is already available, so my suggestion is no change there. I think my idea would actually make you feel more powerful as you level because you are getting useful slots and enhancements. [/quote] This sounds like more an argument to remove TOs from the game, and make DOs be level 1 - 22.

And your argument of there being all the different types, and not remembering what your origin is, sure, I can see that as being confusing, especially for a newbie. I don't recall having had that problem.. but I also don't recall what I was doing at this time last week.

And probably just to simplify it,, as it's taken me up to this very moment I type this... what you're actually suggesting is that DOs be made into TOs in the sense that all origins can slot them, right? Because current TOs do still drop up to lvl 21. But as they are currently, a lvl 20 DO provides more of an enhancement than a lvl 20 TO. Or do you want to keep TOs at the same enhancement level they're currently at?


 

Posted

He is suggesting the removal of DOs from the game and increasing TOs to the strength of DOs from level 1 onward. So you would use TOs (at DO strength) until level 22, then switch over to SOs or IOs at that point.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

I dunno.

The current system we have has grown organically from dubious origins, but it does work.
When I level a character I look forwards to level 12 and level 22 as sudden jumps in power. If I'm impatient, I upgrade to level 10's or 20's at 7 and 17, and maybe indulge myself with some Yin-O's here and there in the teens.

The capabilities of enemies seems to match this curve, partly due to their abilities (eg relative lack of debuffs and mezzes at low levels), partly due to the sliding scales for damage scalars and base accuracy that have been put in place.

Thats a lot of variables, and a lot of boat to rock, or jelly to wobble, or whatever metaphor you want to use, and I'm not sure what for?

The big question is how much of a barrier is this to new players? I don't really know since I'm not a new player in the post-I9 world. Before the market, my experience was bad - reach level 22 and struggle to afford my SO's, I think I even struggled to keep myself in DO's. With all the extra stuff that drops, even vendoring it should solve these problems.

I certainly didn't mind the lower values on enhancements on my first trips through the first 20 levels.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
He is suggesting the removal of DOs from the game and increasing TOs to the strength of DOs from level 1 onward. So you would use TOs (at DO strength) until level 22, then switch over to SOs or IOs at that point.
Well I get a lot of use out of level 10 IO's. I can buy them dirt cheap at the market often for less than I'd pay for TO's and DO's, and I don't have to replace them until level 22 which allows me to save all the currency I get from selling my drops and that money adds up fast.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
The fact that SOs are sufficient does not mean that IOs are not the next logical step from SOs. IOs are the next logical step after SOs, but they are an optional step (while SOs are optional as well, they are pretty dang easy to handle so most people will take that step up from TOs).
You still don't remove a step people are expected to take in favour of an option step people have been told they don't have to take. Especially considering the effort of getting Inventions is not trivial for everbody, whereas that of Trainings, DOs and SOs is.

Quote:
I know it is not extremely complicated. It is just an unneeded extra little complication. And it clutters things unnecessarily. And it keeps TOs as worthless.
I disagree with your assessment of what constitutes "complicated" and what constitutes "unnecessary." I feel the entire Inventions system is far too complicated and utterly unnecessary and would very much like to see all of its enhancements being store bought. This is not likely to be taken seriously by anyone ever, but that doesn't change my assessment of it.

Quote:
I think you are overtstating the progression, since after a brief time playing, most people learn that the progression is: Ignore TOs, probably get DOs at 12, switch to SOs at 22, if inclined learn and use IOs. I'd rather the sense of progression be: use TOs until 22, then switch to SOs, if inclined learn and use IOs. This would make drops more useful as well, and I think it is always interesting when I am encouraged to slot what drops as opposed to the current situation where I vendor or market almost all my drops early game.
I'd rather the progression be in three stages than in two stages. You really can't argue around that. And I'm not sure who those "most players" you speak of are who never slot Training enhancements, but I don't think you have any grounds to claim that other than anecdotal evidence from the total of, like, 15 people who've brought it up on the forums over the years and your own experience. My experience and that of people I know, however, contradicts this.

I enjoy the experience of getting decent enhancements at level 12 and receiving a factual power-up, and then feeling the same way at level 22. You are proposing to remove one of my power-up levels, and I disagree with you completely.

Quote:
You are definitely overstating the power level of slotting DOs early game. Level 1-7 go by so fast and you have so few slots, it is irrelevant. At 8-12 the enemies are powerful enough for those few slots you have to be useful, and I would like them to be that as opposed to just leave them empty because TOs are garbage. From 12 on, DO level power is already available, so my suggestion is no change there. I think my idea would actually make you feel more powerful as you level because you are getting useful slots and enhancements.
You keep neglecting the central theme here - progression, and progression in an upward fashion. As you level up, enemy health increase far outpaced your damage output. At around level 1, you can one-shot minions with an unslotted heavy attack. At level 12, even a slotted heavy attack with Build Up won't always do. However, because the strength of your enhancements increases at level 12, this marked drop is mitigated.

As I level up, it always feels like my enemies are getting tougher and tougher and I can't keep up. Then at level 12, I replace my Training enhancements with DOs and suddenly I race ahead of them once again. Sure, my damage just keeps on dropping, but by the time it's dropped very low again, I'm already using SOs, allowing me to race agead once more. From around 25 onwards, player damage to enemy health remains largely static, so everything from then on is a gain.

What you are suggesting is starting with really strong attacks and then progressively watching them suck more and more and more until they're just BAD at level 21, eliminating one power-up which makes this downward spiral of player ability much more tolerable. And I HATE HATE HATE games where you start out strong with "beginner's luck" compensations and progressively get weaker as the game goes on if you can't keep up. And this is precisely what would happen without the step up from Training to DO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
...
What you are suggesting is starting with really strong attacks and then progressively watching them suck more and more and more until they're just BAD at level 21, eliminating one power-up which makes this downward spiral of player ability much more tolerable. And I HATE HATE HATE games where you start out strong with "beginner's luck" compensations and progressively get weaker as the game goes on if you can't keep up. And this is precisely what would happen without the step up from Training to DO.
Which is why my personal choice would be to eliminate TOs AND DOs, make everything SOs from the start and tweak the hp/dmg prgression of mobs from level 1 onward to remove those downward spirals and bumps.

The idea of feeling like I am improving is important to me, but the massive jumps in strength should come from gaining new powers and slotting them, not by "Overhauling" your enhancements every 5 levels. This is just one person's viewpoint though.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF