Ninjas, yes need more love. They got some, but not quite enough.
With changes going on, i think something was said about slowly looking at underperforming sets over the upcoming issues. Fire got a once over, its a big improvement, but could still use alittle more.
Gravity came up (kept coming up) on the closed boards boards because of one of the iterations in Elec control was way out, and it was so over powered, it was fixed. So the dev are completely aware of stuff, they don't comment on it. They know. Why comment etc and get people upset you know.
I hope they get alittle tweak.
One of the things i found helped ninjas, was ofcourse the IOs for defen and resistance (having both).
The other, maneuvers, and using BG mode AND Taunt/provoke. Taunt/provoke really helps, as it focuses aggro back on you, and off your henchmen, so the baddies don't attack your henchmen as much.
Using all of those, they are still hard to control and die, but overall they become much more managble using a tanker taunt bot kinda of mentality. I do like mine. But i think they could use a baseline increase in def by about 6 pt each.
I think the problem here is the level 24 part...
You have neither the last pet (Oni for the ninjas) nor the final upgrade (Giving out the best powers to your pets) this will severly hamper any chances of understanding the potential of the powerset, take a look at Bots, they are all single target and don't do that much damage pre-32 and after they are one of the highest AoE damage primary (If not the highest) for MMs.
Also a good secondary helps, I find Ninja/Dark is great, wheras Ninja/Pain would be annoying to level up (With the Ninjas taking full damage when they are hit and dieing if it was a strong target)
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If you take the 4 pet uniques into consideration, then yeah, Ninja is indeed inferior. Why? Because you can put 4 unique in Thug's Gangwar and Necro's Soul Extraction. Those 4 give 20% resistance and 10% defense. /Storm's Tornado is the only pet that can take all 4. |
Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
Been playing with alot of the mastermind sets lately and I'd have to say. After getting them all pretty much half way to 50 (lvl 24 on the ninjas) I have to say wow. Ninjas kinda suck....
Have the devs said anything on ninja MM's and how they feel they run? I'm running a Ninja/pain MM and even at -1x2 with bosses disabled I'm having one hell of a time keeping my ninjas alive. Seems like they have no defense. They're just a huge catchers mitt for anything thrown their way. Arent the ninjas in the movies really good at defense? Guess I'm getting all the weak wimpy rookie ninjas who arnt smart enough to get out of the way of anything. lol Back to the devs thing. Has any red names said anything on how they feel Ninjas are performing? Cause I'm not impressed. |
And also, you can't get too fancy with Ninja slotting. Genin accepts knockback set but only ONE attack does that. Jounin is ok with defense debuff set. Oni is one of the worst when it comes to set because he doesn't take either Hold or Immb set. Oni is still bugged that it shows it takes Knockback set which he doesn't do.
So yeah, Ninja still needs improvements overall. Your own Arrow attacks suck pretty bad too. Who would need 1.5s recharge super low damage arrow attack on Mastermind?? The 4s one is already low damage enough and it's not like you can slot something fancy in the personal attacks like you can with Assault Rifle or Dark Blast.
The only thing that stands out is Smoke Flash. But in a way, that is the only power that sort of balances out Ninja. If you don't use Smoke Flash, the whole ninja set is way below average. Yes, Ninja has the "potential" to do good damage but your pets deal less damage if they die the fastest.
Jounin needs to have an improved range attack. Sometimes I wish they could have just got rid of range attack on Jounins. I think that will make Ninja set reach its damage potential a lot quicker.
There are many things that hinder Ninja's Damage Potential:
1. Rain of Fire and Caltrops. Both do decent damage to a crowd but if the target is dead, the "pets" die too. You can try not to direct them to attack the same target BUT if you don't, you are at the risk of having Genin/Jounin chasing somebody when you are not paying attention. In fact, of all the sets, I have to pay the CLOSEST attention on Ninjas because they run so fast and they can really chase. I don't feel safe letting them choose their own targets to prioritize their RoF or Caltrops or knockback from Crane Kick. In a way, the Ninja set is designed to "spread out" the pets, letting them take on their own targets.
2. Jounins still don't always go melee after shooting Poison Darts. This hurts Ninja's DPS big time.
3. Tier 1 pets do a lot of damage but also die the easiest. Lose damage potential right there.
4. Set customization with Ninja is boring. Archery doesn't have any secondary effects besides inherent accuracy bonus. Genins and Oni can't take any fancy proc damage. In terms of set slotting, Ninja loses potential.
5. Because of Jounins' weak poison dart, the critical damage from hidden is a lot less. You have to goto Jounin and hoping that he opens the battle with Golden or Dragon Soar to capitalize hidden status. This is another loss of "potential". It would be nice if the critical damage from poison dart is the total damage and not just the initial lethal damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Genin have 7.5% Defense to All ... AND NO WAY TO IMPROVE IT NATIVELY. 
Jounin and Oni have 15% Defense to All ... AND HAVE NO WAY TO IMPROVE IT NATIVELY.
The only way to help your Ninjas get any better Defense is to slot a unique Pet Defense Proc (which depending on your secondary, may result in only ONE unique, not TWO for this) ... take Grant Invisibility yourself ... take Maneuvers yourself ... be a Ninja/FF (for bubbles) or a Ninja/Traps (for shield drone) MM. That's pretty much *IT* for your options to improve the Defense ability of your Pets. The Defenses on your Ninja pets are pretty much "stuck" at *Training Origin* slotted Super Reflexes levels. It's as if your Genin skipped all the Super Reflexes Toggles and only took the Passives (oops!). Big surprise then that they fold like origami paper.
Bare minimum, your pets need have the native ability to cast Grant Invisibility on Ninja Pets ... and gain the Defense Buff that goes with that. Give that power to either the Genin (if you want it to triple stack!) or Oni. The Jounin ought to be running Maneuvers, just like the Thugs set LTs do. I mean ... HELLO?
I know that there is a great love of the Inverse Ninja Law ... in which the more ninjas there are, the weaker they all are ... so that when you face only one ninja alone, that one ninja is supremely powerful. This happens all the time in chop-socky/wire fu films and anime, and is one of the more common tropes of the genre ... but it's something that really doesn't translate all that well into game mechanics. I mean ... seriously ... are you going to give all of the individual pet ninjas really high defenses, and then give them all defense debuff (to ninja pets only) auras to pull them back down again when they all get together? Isn't that kinda completely counter to how Masterminds are supposed to work?
Personally, I'd really really really like the opportunity to remake the Ninja set from scratch (with the new powersets that have come along since Issue 7).
Genin as Martial Arts/Willpower Scrappers (ie. "naturals" with RttC!).
Jounin as Ninja Sword/Ninjitsu Stalkers.
Chi Master as Kinetic Melee/Dark Armor Brute (that's right, dump Oni!).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Personally, I'd really really really like the opportunity to remake the Ninja set from scratch (with the new powersets that have come along since Issue 7).
Genin as Martial Arts/Willpower Scrappers (ie. "naturals" with RttC!). Jounin as Ninja Sword/Ninjitsu Stalkers. Chi Master as Kinetic Melee/Dark Armor Brute (that's right, dump Oni!). |
Flux approves of this.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)
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Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
Flux approves of this.
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I was also thinking those sounded like good ideas
and fun too!
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Sure it does. It's just that they gave gang war to *thugs*.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
I know that there is a great love of the Inverse Ninja Law ... in which the more ninjas there are, the weaker they all are ... so that when you face only one ninja alone, that one ninja is supremely powerful. This happens all the time in chop-socky/wire fu films and anime, and is one of the more common tropes of the genre ... but it's something that really doesn't translate all that well into game mechanics.
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If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
I'm leveling up a Ninja/Pain, 25 right now and I've noticed they can run out of end in long fights. Should I slot an endurance reducer in Genin and Jounin (and Oni)?
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I'd be more all about having one genin be a KM/ user. the same way we have a unique third 1st-tier pet for other primaries (Arsonist, Medic, uhh....other bot, and ....other...zombie?) lol. Well it could very well set the pathway anyway.
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Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
Flux approves of this.
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That would only reduce the endurance used summonig them.
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Originally Posted by evertheskeptic
I'm leveling up a Ninja/Pain, 25 right now and I've noticed they can run out of end in long fights. Should I slot an endurance reducer in Genin and Jounin (and Oni)?
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That's not true. An EndRx in any of the pets will cause their abilities to use less End as well. So, yes, an EndRx in Genin will help with their issues.
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Originally Posted by beyeajus
That would only reduce the endurance used summonig them.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Genin have 7.5% Defense to All ... AND NO WAY TO IMPROVE IT NATIVELY.
Jounin and Oni have 15% Defense to All ... AND HAVE NO WAY TO IMPROVE IT NATIVELY. The only way to help your Ninjas get any better Defense is to slot a unique Pet Defense Proc (which depending on your secondary, may result in only ONE unique, not TWO for this) ... take Grant Invisibility yourself ... take Maneuvers yourself ... be a Ninja/FF (for bubbles) or a Ninja/Traps (for shield drone) MM. That's pretty much *IT* for your options to improve the Defense ability of your Pets. The Defenses on your Ninja pets are pretty much "stuck" at *Training Origin* slotted Super Reflexes levels. It's as if your Genin skipped all the Super Reflexes Toggles and only took the Passives (oops!). Big surprise then that they fold like origami paper. Bare minimum, your pets need have the native ability to cast Grant Invisibility on Ninja Pets ... and gain the Defense Buff that goes with that. Give that power to either the Genin (if you want it to triple stack!) or Oni. The Jounin ought to be running Maneuvers, just like the Thugs set LTs do. I mean ... HELLO? I know that there is a great love of the Inverse Ninja Law ... in which the more ninjas there are, the weaker they all are ... so that when you face only one ninja alone, that one ninja is supremely powerful. This happens all the time in chop-socky/wire fu films and anime, and is one of the more common tropes of the genre ... but it's something that really doesn't translate all that well into game mechanics. I mean ... seriously ... are you going to give all of the individual pet ninjas really high defenses, and then give them all defense debuff (to ninja pets only) auras to pull them back down again when they all get together? Isn't that kinda completely counter to how Masterminds are supposed to work? Personally, I'd really really really like the opportunity to remake the Ninja set from scratch (with the new powersets that have come along since Issue 7). Genin as Martial Arts/Willpower Scrappers (ie. "naturals" with RttC!). Jounin as Ninja Sword/Ninjitsu Stalkers. Chi Master as Kinetic Melee/Dark Armor Brute (that's right, dump Oni!). |
I say give them Vengeance, then they'll fit the Inverse Ninja Law perfectly. Every time a Ninja dies, they get more badass.
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Is doing so recommended or does their end use get better with the 2nd upgrade?
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Originally Posted by Slauterhause
So, yes, an EndRx in Genin will help with their issues.
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Recommended. Second upgrade will not improve endurance situation.
And I really shouldn't be surprised by this. I offer a solution that "works" to a problem, and the thread dies almost instantly.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Just got the Oni, what's good slotting for him? Obviously accuracy and damage, does he need an endurance like the others? What about hold or immobilize duration, does he use those powers often?
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Oni can use some -endurance. |
Originally Posted by evertheskeptic
Just got the Oni, what's good slotting for him? Obviously accuracy and damage, does he need an endurance like the others? What about hold or immobilize duration, does he use those powers often?
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There is still a bug that shows Oni takes knockback set. Oni has no knockback at all. It would be nice if Oni and take either Hold or Immb set.
Yes, Oni does use those two powers often.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I learned something today! That's good news!
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Originally Posted by Slauterhause
That's not true. An EndRx in any of the pets will cause their abilities to use less End as well. So, yes, an EndRx in Genin will help with their issues.
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One of the final scenes of Ninja Scroll is a prime example.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
I know that there is a great love of the Inverse Ninja Law ... in which the more ninjas there are, the weaker they all are ... so that when you face only one ninja alone, that one ninja is supremely powerful.
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Also explains why my NB/nin Stalker is more survivable than my Nin MM.
I like the idea behind the Ninja set - fragile disposable pets that can do very high melee damage, thus requiring a lot of attention.
Smoke Flash kind of puts a damper on this though with its insane 30 base end cost. If it was scheaper it could be slotted more for Recharge and spammed more heavily across the multiple pets. this would still require a lot of player attention - move to melee and flash, but at least it wouldn't bottom out your end bar doing this.
Been playing with alot of the mastermind sets lately and I'd have to say. After getting them all pretty much half way to 50 (lvl 24 on the ninjas) I have to say wow. Ninjas kinda suck....
Have the devs said anything on ninja MM's and how they feel they run? I'm running a Ninja/pain MM and even at -1x2 with bosses disabled I'm having one hell of a time keeping my ninjas alive.
Seems like they have no defense. They're just a huge catchers mitt for anything thrown their way. Arent the ninjas in the movies really good at defense? Guess I'm getting all the weak wimpy rookie ninjas who arnt smart enough to get out of the way of anything. lol
Back to the devs thing. Has any red names said anything on how they feel Ninjas are performing? Cause I'm not impressed.
'If Champions Online is what "CoH was supposed to be", I'm glad that I have what I have rather than "what it was supposed to be".' - The Alt oholic
"I solo'd Hamidon...but I also totally cheated." - Back Alley Brawler
"It is still early. Someone is going to get stabbed tonight I can feel it." - Ishmael (said in Jello Shooters chat)