Fire/Shield All Swords Concept Build Improvements?
Quote:
Basically, I'm going for a demon turned good with "sword and board" made out of blue fire or plasma or hell fire or angelic fire or whatever.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
What is the concept behind this character?
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Hey, I never said it was a great or unique concept.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Cool idea. Wish you all the luck in your Concept+IO Build attempt. For most, those two things just don't go together, but if anyone can pull it off, you can Werner.
A little more fiddling. 95% DDR, slightly better regeneration, net recovery and melee defense. Slightly worse ranged and AoE defense, accuracy, and jump height for Combat Jumping. Seems like a good trade off, even if the differences are fairly trivial.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
ahhh... yeah
can't really do much on that build but a +10 HP maybe. Taking a slot out of deflection, sticking an enzyme + the lotg. That free slot goes to health for 3 miracles.
Nice build...
Quote:
OK, maybe it's not much, but I'll take 10 hit points and a 0.01 EPS reduction over 2% regen and 0.2% over-the-cap melee. Thanks! |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
can't really do much on that build but a +10 HP maybe. Taking a slot out of deflection, sticking an enzyme + the lotg. That free slot goes to health for 3 miracles.
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Updated build:
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
While with i19 it may be easier fitness pool inherent
gerr I am close I will have to play with it some more I added 5% more recharge but I am sitting at .08% defense short on aoe soft cap
I also was able to drop in grant cover for your ddr you can change the order I just dropped it in where it was easy for me on your build
I will play some more with it
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Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Cool, thanks! I'd gotten to 95% DDR without Grant Cover, saving endurance. But getting there with Grant Cover is fine too, since it's only just a little bit of endurance and it would only be run situationally. Also slightly more team friendly for those rare occasions. OK, let's see what you did here... Ah, Aegis in Tough, yeah, that makes sense for the ton of AoE defense, making up for the AoE defense lost in Stamina. Red Fortune in Weave gets the 5% recharge and 2.5% ranged. Sounds good. Accuracy has dropped to 89% against +4s, and as you noticed, 0.8% AoE defense short. Might be a way to pull it all together, though. I'll fiddle with it too to see if I can figure something out. It makes me sad to lose Super Jump, but that's only a nice to have to weigh against the other nice to haves.
And with I19, I'll probably pick up Flight, which will be better for concept, but I'm not willing to give up Combat Jumping for it, which is why I'm sticking with the Leaping pool for now. I pass the wings off as for stabilization, control, and added height, but not strong enough to actually fly with.
Here was my own latest tweak, pulling the slot back out of Health and back into Deflection, but slotting a Shield Wall +3% resistance. It loses 25 hit points and 8% regeneration, but gains 3% resistance to all. Probably worth it.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I was just trying to add a different angle I know sometimes you can take that and then leverage it another way . I will fiddle some more and try to throw another possibility out there
Also would it be worth it in your fire circle sword to drop the end IO and put in a flurry -res proc ?
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Quote:
Well, it looks like it would cost 0.36 EPS. From the last build I posted, that's still under my limit, but it's getting iffy. Very roughly speaking, it's one hit every duration, so about a 20% * 20% = 4% damage increase. But that's underestimating, so let's call it 5%. Guessing I'll be doing around 200 DPS, so around 10 DPS improvement. 10 DPS for 0.36 EPS is about 28 DPE. That's lowish but not too bad. By way of comparison, Assault would be probably something like 6 DPS for 0.27 EPS, or about 22 DPE. So it's better than adding Assault, and doesn't require a power pick. Since I'm fairly AoE centric, my normal argument about not putting it in an AoE doesn't apply as much. It really might be worth considering. I'll have to tune the endurance even further, though.|
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
Also would it be worth it in your fire circle sword to drop the end IO and put in a flurry -res proc ?
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But yeah, I think that'll be the next thing I try - trying to figure out how to get the endurance back down after that big hit. So good idea - IF I can figure out the endurance to power the extra damage! And frankly, I might take it even if I can't figure out the endurance. I'm after big damage here, and I'm willing to pop blues occasionally.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Let's see. The debuff acts as future possible damage. It does the most "damage" when enemies have the most hit points left, and you'll finish them off in the next ten seconds. But Fire Sword Circle itself does a lot of damage, particularly when built up (i.e., burst). Even with the 20% less damage from attacking +2 enemies like I'm planning, it'll still very badly injure minions, and injure lieutenants. The possible "damage" that the proc does is then Remaining Hit Points*(20%/120%) = HP/6. So let's say I've left a minion with 120 hit points or so. The proc, if it fires, then does at most 20 points of damage. That's an average of only 20% * 20 = 4 points of damage. It'll do more if I'm not in Build Up, but still, for minion munching, I could get significantly more damage, and faster (a goal) by just slotting a damage IO. How about Lieutenants? Well, they'll probably have about 450 hit points left. I'll probably be doing enough AoE to finish them off in ten seconds. So then we're doing 450/6 = 75 points of damage, or 20% * 75 = 15 points of damage on average. That's only slightly better than a regular damage proc (14) or a damage IO (13). Plus it's delayed, and not a guarantee since I might not finish the lieutenant off. I'd probably be better off with a proc or a damage IO even against +2 lieutenants.
That leaves us with Bosses, who come in two classes - primary target and AoE targets. The primary target I think is in the DPS realm, which we've already decided benefits significantly from the proc. What about the secondary targets? Well, +2 bosses are probably not going to die in ten seconds from mere AoE damage, so it's more a matter of how much I can put out than how many hit points they have left. I'm talking Build Up, and Shield Charge is approximately on the Build Up cycle, so I'll include it. I should be able to do a Shield Charge, Fire Ball, and second Fire Sword Circle in the Build Up and Gladiator proc window. Very roughly speaking (Mids' average damage), that would be 481 + 268 + 446 = 1195 damage. Call it 1200, with a 20% buff when the proc fires, and it's 240 points of additional damage, which is very nice. But that's only a 20% chance, so it's more like 50 additional points of damage on average (when built up). So it's very nice for both the primary boss target and for the secondary boss targets, and I do plan to run with bosses up.
Bosses will almost certainly be the bottleneck on kill speed, and for that matter, the biggest threat to my survivability. Unlike my survivability scrappers, I have no heal, so I'm dependent on kill or be killed. So the greater kill speed should increase my survivability, and decrease the number of times I need to use greens. Mind you, on +2x8, greens will probably be falling like rain, so that may not be an issue. But still, kill speed is exactly what I'm after. And concerns about endurance are obviated by the fact that blues will be falling like rain as well. So I can't do the Rikti War Zone challenge, and so I can't take out a pylon or an AV without blues. So? Those aren't build goals, and damage output IS. Also, all of those were likely to kill me without greens anyway.
Well, that wasn't the conclusion I expected to reach, honestly. I woke up thinking about the big long essay I'd written in the past about why you shouldn't put an Achilles' Heel in an AoE, and by extension, why you shouldn't even use Fury of the Gladiator most of the time. So I figured I'd be reviewing the essay and the math, and concluding that it wasn't a good idea. But I think I've concluded the opposite. For me, for this build, for my goals, for the enemies I plan to fight, it makes sense. It's not HUGE, but it's NICE, and I can afford the endurance because I'm willing to pop the occasional blue.
Build wise, I think that means I'm swapping in the Fury of the Gladiator without additional changes. Looks like that has me losing 0.40 endurance per second using the sword chain. That's on the high side of what I was looking for, but still in range.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Would probably just forget that +res IO and slot a damage proc on Fire Ball, or take the slot from health.
Quote:
That, or slot an End Redux in Fireball, which will lower your overall end usage more than the Panacea set bonus will. Even keeping the Panacea in Health, I think forgetting the +Res IO and slotting an End Redux in Fireball would be more beneficial.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Would probably just forget that +res IO and slot a damage proc on Fire Ball, or take the slot from health.
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Quote:
What's your thinking on slotting a proc in Fire Ball instead of Fire Sword Circle? That when I'm doing AoE (primary purpose), I'll be using Fire Ball just as often as Fire Sword Circle (probably nearly as often, yes), and Fire Ball has a greater radius (15' vs. 10'), so I'll likely hit more enemies with it? Also, that a regular proc in Fire Ball is damage NOW, instead of potential damage later if the enemy isn't dead yet and I finish it off in the next 10 seconds?|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Would probably just forget that +res IO and slot a damage proc on Fire Ball, or take the slot from health.
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I guess my thinking was that ten feet would be good enough, and that the Fury of the Gladiator proc would help a fair amount against bosses, not much against lieutenants, and almost not at all against minions. And I'm guessing that bosses will be the limitation on my kill speed rather than lieutenants and minions. So I was thinking that to improve my overall kill speed, a proc that preferentially took down bosses was a good thing.
However, I really have no relevant experience here, or honestly with high end AoE toons at all. I only have Fire Sword Circle on my current build. I have a Fire Blaster with Fire Ball, but that's probably a rather different animal. So I'm not sure that I'm guessing right about the bosses thing, and the bosses will be the ones I'm attacking with my "single target" chain.
Putting a proc in both instead of choosing may be the best option, though. Let's see, a slot from Health costs me 17% regeneration and 0.04 EPS (still acceptable). And probably the other least important slot is the Shield Wall +3% resistance, since this isn't a survivability build, and since good resistance is just on my "nice to have" list. Since I'm willing to pop greens and blues, I'll probably get more out of resistance than regen and recovery, so I guess I'd be pulling the slot from Health like you mentioned.
Hmmm. I COULD even consider slotting the purple proc, chance for knockdown. It's possible that knocking down a couple enemies will improve survivability as much or more than what I'm giving up. Bah, survivability is such a hard habit for me to break; this is supposed to be about damage output. Damage enhancement is already way over ED cap, so a damage proc is definitely better. Guess it would be a Positron's Blast chance of energy damage. Definitely a possibility.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Well, I loves me some endurance sustainability. One of the builds in here was, I think, down to losing only 0.04 EPS, so probably the margin of error in my calculations is larger than that, so we might as well call it sustainable. But with all these procs, I'm no longer even close (losing 0.44 EPS, I think).|
Originally Posted by Gaidin
That, or slot an End Redux in Fireball, which will lower your overall end usage more than the Panacea set bonus will. Even keeping the Panacea in Health, I think forgetting the +Res IO and slotting an End Redux in Fireball would be more beneficial.
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But if I'm using Fire Ball, chances are I'm munching up minions. And if I'm munching up minions, blues will be raining down on me, and I won't have any qualms about taking them. I might not get many blues when trying +4x8, where inspirations won't be raining down, but they'll probably still be dropping fast enough to keep me ahead on endurance. Not sure about hit points, but I'm thinking I'd be OK on endurance.
Where I wanted to be closer to endurance sustainability would be for the occasional weirdness, like soloing a pylon or an AV or making a horribly embarrassing attempt at the Rikti War Zone challenge. For the pylon or AV, I wouldn't be using Fire Ball at all, so endurance reduction in it wouldn't help there. For the Rikti War Zone challenge, it might help, because I'd probably be going all out on AoE for a while to reduce incoming damage. But I'd probably also be using One with the Shield, which gives more recovery, and hoping that two minutes would be enough to get me through the majority of it. Take the crash, and then just stick with the sword chain with no extra AoE, and hope to make it to the end before I run out. I'd probably die, though, so endurance might be a non-issue in the end. *chuckle*
So I think I need to break myself of the endurance sustainability habit. Everything in me is screaming that the latest build is burning endurance way too fast and I need to fix it. But I think I need to ignore that voice, because this is a completely different toon with a completely different purpose.
Fortunately, if I'm wrong, it's pretty easily fixed. Like just respec to pull out the Fury of the Gladiator and stick in an endurance reducer. That knocks the consumption WAY down. And yeah, I could swap out the damage proc for endurance in Fire Ball at that point too if it looks like I need even more.
?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Was thinking of the Posi damage proc and not the -res proc. I honestly wouldn't even bother with the -res proc on either one.
Quote:
The -res proc is a PBAoE set piece, so he couldn't slot it in Fireball anyway. |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Was thinking of the Posi damage proc and not the -res proc. I honestly wouldn't even bother with the -res proc on either one.
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I'll take a look at it when I get home. If Iggy couldn't improve on it, I doubt I can either, but I'm good at thinking outside the box, so you never know.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I appreciate it. The problem might be that we're near a local maximum, but that doesn't mean it can't get a lot better if we approach it from a different direction, like Hejtmane tried, or even something more extreme. A little outside the box thinking might be just what it needs. As for me, maybe I should start over from someone else's optimized build, and see what happens differently when I modify it to meet my goals, while trying to forget how I did this one.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'll take a look at it when I get home. If Iggy couldn't improve on it, I doubt I can either, but I'm good at thinking outside the box, so you never know.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Are you against taking the other attacks to mule with, even if they aren't used?
Or is it anything goes?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Nope, couldn't do any better.
Sorry Werner, I tried!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Well, thanks for trying! |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Nope, couldn't do any better.
Sorry Werner, I tried! |
Probably irrelevant now, but I don't mind other attacks as mules as long as I can ignore them. (Edit: Well, technically I hate mules because they're usually inefficient, but numbers don't lie, and I'll take a better build with a mule over a lesser build without one.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Well, I was considering Fire Breath slotted with Posi's Blast to bring the recharge and global accuracy up, but after I looked at the build I didn't see any particular place to put it. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Well, thanks for trying!
Probably irrelevant now, but I don't mind other attacks as mules as long as I can ignore them. (Edit: Well, technically I hate mules because they're usually inefficient, but numbers don't lie, and I'll take a better build with a mule over a lesser build without one.) |
I can up damage output, but you'd lose the softcap, and I figured that was pretty important to you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Question:
What's with the HO is combat jumping? Wouldn't you be better off with another Kismet or LoTG or even moving the slot to deflection for a res/end steadfast?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
Let me have a look. Well, the reason looks to be to get his defense higher, but it looks like things elsewhere in the build have gotten him high enough that it's probably no longer necessary. |
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
What's with the HO is combat jumping? Wouldn't you be better off with another Kismet or LoTG or even moving the slot to deflection for a res/end steadfast?
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If you replace the Enzyme in Combat Jumping with a Luck of the Gambler defense/endurance, ranged and AoE defense drops to 44.97%. Technically not soft-capped, but probably worth it to get another 15 hit points. Mmmm... 5%/5.03%-100% ~ 0.6% survivability from the Enzyme, but only on Ranged and AoE, which I personally call only 30% of incoming damage, so about 0.2% survivability. Gaining 15 hit points is 2036/2021-100% ~ 0.7% survivability the way I count it, which slightly underweights hit points. Yep, hit points are several times better, and I don't think anyone will complain if I call 44.97% soft capped. A Kismet, though, drops it to 44.93% with no corresponding improvement in survivability, only in endurance recovery, which I'm trying to not target as much as I normally would. And moving the slot to Deflection hurts even more because melee wasn't the problem, and ranged and AoE drop to 44.73%. So the Luck of the Gambler looks best.
OK, done. Luck of the Gambler defense/endurance replaces the Enzyme in Combat Jumping, even though it technically violates my must haves, and now I REALLY need those level 53 Hamios. Thanks!
Code:
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I feel like this build could be better, but I've stared at it for so long I'm probably missing opportunities that others can see more easily. So I'm throwing myself on the mercy of the Scrapper forum and asking for help.
General Information:
- This is a concept build - all melee attacks used must be sword attacks
- Not a hypothetical - I'm level 50 and I'm ready to start purchasing
- AoE and burst damage are more important than single-target DPS
- Probably mostly used for solo missioning around +2x8
- Will likely be used for some farming, but no specific map chosen yet
- Want to be able to solo AVs and pylons, but that's not the primary purpose, so I'm happy to pop a few inspirations
- Most likely will remain blue side heroic
- I don't care about exemplaring performance
- Unlimited budget – go wild; no expense is too high for even the tiniest improvement (but don't slot something just for the sake of slotting it either, and I have the Gladiator's Armor already, so supply isn't an issue except probably on L53 Hamios)
Must Haves:- Chain: Fire Sword Circle (+253%, 5.67 sec) -> Fire Sword -> Greater Fire Sword -> Fire Sword
- Fire Ball
- Shield Charge
- Soft-capped defense
- Over 80% defense debuff resistance
- 95% to hit +4 enemies with all attacks that are actually used
- Good endurance using sword chain (0.5 EPS or less, significantly less preferred)
- Reasonable hit points, resistance and regeneration (no specific targets, just not totally sucky)
- Combat Jumping and Hurdle
Nice to Haves:- Sustainable endurance using sword chain
- 95% DDR
- Build Up recharged after only three sword chains (Edit: 25.74 seconds, I think)
- Alternate Chain: Fire Ball (+273%, 8.58 sec) -> Fire Sword Circle -> Fire Sword -> Greater Fire Sword -> Fire Sword
- Super Jump
- Solo +4x8 with inspirations
- Highest damage output possible given the concept constraints and must haves
- High hit points, resistance and regeneration
- Perma Hasten
- One with the Shield
Below is my attempt. It hits all the must haves. From the nice to haves, the sword chain looks almost endurance sustainable, losing about 0.1 EPS for nearly 20 minutes of fighting. That should be enough for AVs, pylons and the RWZ challenge without endurance problems. Survival problems maybe, but not endurance. DDR looks to be 93% as long as I'm seriously on the ball with my clicking. My idea here was to skip Grant Cover to reduce endurance consumption while also letting me pick up One with the Shield, and just overslot Active Defense and Battle Agility. It seems to have worked, and I'm happy with the result. Build Up and Fire Ball don't recharge quite as fast as I'd like. It does have Super Jump, and it's even slotted so it'll be fast. Not sure if it'll solo +4x8 - I'm thinking I'll burn through greens too fast to actually complete missions except on the easier groups. Damage output seems excellent as long as we're not talking DPS, which isn't good, but mostly because of the concept constraints. Hit points, resistance and regeneration are only so-so. I'd like for them to be higher, but I can deal with what I have here if I need to. Hasten isn't permanent, but it's only about 5 seconds off, which I can live with. I have enough additional attacks that my damage output won't suffer in the down time. It does have One with the Shield, but only barely since it isn't slotted. Won't be overly useful, but I'm sure I'll find situational use for it as a slight buff.On the down side, I dislike set mules. I plan to use Fire Blast for the sheer fun of it, so slotting that up doesn't bother me much. But I'll never use Char, so I hate that it's five-slotted. But I really need that recharge for all the other build goals, and I just don't see how to get it without slotting Char. Maybe someone can see a way. The biggest issue is Fire Sword Circle. It's RIGHT on the edge of not being fast enough. Any loss of recharge means I need to slot it for more recharge. And that will have a big negative impact on endurance use, plus cause problems for DDR, since Active Defense is also right on the edge of not double stacking.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks