I disagree. Having a consistent storyline that evolves and makes sense is far superior to unrelated episodic tales that are never spoken of again once they are over. This has been my gripe with television shows for years now, and I do not want to bring that in this game.
Furthermore, creating brand new maps and enemy factions for one single TF sounds like a colossal waste of resources, and to be honest, I don't see how "going into space" has anything more to do with super heroes than going back in time. Considering half of Marvel's heroes are either Norse gods or Greek holdovers, I don't see the point.
And I would caution you against bringing up underwater combat. This will not happen, for the simple reason that there are far too many things we do in this game that make no sense in water. And, no this doesn't get a "miracle excuse." To quote the Spoony One: "It's be like me inventing a sport where people light themselves on fire and play tennis in a cube made of bees in outer space. I don't care how good an athlete you are, it ain't happening!"
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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While it would be pretty cool to do a little task force with never seen before enemies it would be a complete waste of Dev time to do it, putting in the costume design time for a whole faction alone would be an epic missadventure if they only made it into one TF.
Now if some device existed that the Devs or externally welll credited writers could put in a relatively small amount of effort and come up with a TF-esque story line, while being able to make their own custom critters and assign them powers that would be pretty aweomse...oh, wait.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Mega, I think you just shot your own argument in the foot.
The AE shows that creating one shot TFs WOULDN'T be as massive a waste of time as we used to think. Creating custom enemies with all new bios and backgrounds would take a decent, semi-experienced developer a day. Now balancing would take a little more time, but since this is a one shot TF, not critters you'd find roaming zones, you have a lot more control (very specific level ranges and situations) so it would, again, MAYBE take one person a day. What would take time for this would be the creation of new maps and cut-scenes, and debugging those maps.
Still, I think it would be worthwhile. New TFs DO generate a lot of "buzz" when they come out, and give players something to do with both new and old characters. A semi-steady flow of TFs (3 a year, so one every four months) would be a great way to keep the game feeling fresh while taking up what I would THINK would be minimal resources.
There IS a compromise, I think. Once they add in a few new features to the AE, they could have Dev Designed "AE" Task Forces/arcs which offer the option for full rewards (and I suggest offering full rewards for the guest author arcs as well.) Make these Dev designed AE arcs longer (give them up to 10 missions instead of 5, etc.) and special, and make them "cannon." In other words, make them worth running for both story AND "progression" of your character. It's fairly easy to come up with an cannonical reason why you're using the AE to accomplish "real world" tasks. Hell, I had a static VG where we went from 1-50 (we made it to 33) Redside following one single, ongoing storyline, and we used the AE (along with a few select in game conctacts) to do it. The specific AE we used was a "front" for our employer (the Omen Organization), and we had a special access interface which allowed -us- to use it as a means to transport into and out of areas, avoiding detetcion. Walla...suddenly it made perfect sense why we were using a virtual hologram system as a way to get to our real world missions. In all honesty, it was really fun to follow a single storyline focused on our own characters from 1-38, all tied directly in to cannonical, in game content.
The Devs could set up an AE terminal in Pocket D that has been "hijacked" by a secetive hacker who is the permanent contact for their arcs. This hacker occassionally sends out a message letting heroes/villains know he has a new challenge for them. Call him the Loremaster (play on dungeon master) and make him a riddler-style guy threatening some lame consequences if his game isn't completed (or something equally stupid,) and suddenly you have your reasoning why the AE arcs by devs and guest authors has become a cannon feature. Offer full rewards, make the arcs a little "bigger" than normal arcs, and walla- a constant stream of new, easily produced content for players. Hell, this idea is lame but it only took me 5 minutes to come up with. Im sure given a few days the devs could come up with a much better in-game reason.
Something like that would get players back in to the AE in a non-exploitive way and also be VERY minimal in its eating up of resources. Just a suggestion.
Considering the entirety of the Architect is a giant waste of time that most people only ever used to farm and powerlevel anyway, I'm still unconvinced.
The architect is a design tool intended for players to use, and as such the effort involved in it is intentionally minimised. When developers made professional content, they do more than slap some text in a few text boxes and drop a few costumes out of the editor. They run complex scripts, with each new TF more elaborate and interesting than the previous ones, with each new enemy group more interesting and more pretty.
Look at Praetoria - it comes with all new content, but that's actual NEW content, not recompilations of old parts. New enemies with new costumes and new pieces. New missions with new mechanics and new storytelling devices. It's new stuff in more than name only. And it's not THAT much more new stuff, to boot.
What you're talking about is a developer basically sitting down to make a TF in the Architect, which... Really isn't as impressive as you make it sound. I mean, there are good Architect arcs out there (if you can find them among the dreck), but they're not the kind of thing I'd expect the developers to go out and make. In fact, they have specifically stated that they'll NEED to outdo themselves in order to compete with what we would be making with the Architect. I assume that statement was made before they realised that all we wanted to make was Meow Farms, but the point stands.
This development team has made it a very clear point that they don't want to half-*** content and churn it out on a conveyor belt, despite the fact that they COULD. Players have shown that THEY can, so the developers ought to. Instead, they've been trying to make content that's better than anything players could do, and that just takes more time and effort.
Maybe you can make an argument that they're wrong and that they SHOULD just make a bunch of simplified "go there, kill that" missions and flood us with new content, but that's entirely separate from asking that TFs be made and all the artwork and maps made for them then be entirely scrapped and never reused.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Um...that's neat, but it's opinion. And opinion that really could be easily proven misinformed if not flatly wrong. THOUSANDS of arcs have been published since AE launched, and most of them aren't farms. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Considering the entirety of the Architect is a giant waste of time that most people only ever used to farm and powerlevel anyway, I'm still unconvinced.
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And you DO realize most people "farm" the ITF, LGTF, etc, all of which are part of your praised ongoing, in game storyline, right? Hell, I run the thing probably 5 times a week. Does that suddenly unconvince you that ongoing storylines and content is a waste of time?
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| The architect is a design tool intended for players to use, and as such the effort involved in it is intentionally minimised. When developers made professional content, they do more than slap some text in a few text boxes and drop a few costumes out of the editor. They run complex scripts, with each new TF more elaborate and interesting than the previous ones, with each new enemy group more interesting and more pretty. |
Oh, also...wasn't the latest TF released the 5th column TFs? Didnt those enemies already exist? Did that somehow make it a "lesser" TF?
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| What you're talking about is a developer basically sitting down to make a TF in the Architect, which... Really isn't as impressive as you make it sound. I mean, there are good Architect arcs out there (if you can find them among the dreck), but they're not the kind of thing I'd expect the developers to go out and make. In fact, they have specifically stated that they'll NEED to outdo themselves in order to compete with what we would be making with the Architect. I assume that statement was made before they realised that all we wanted to make was Meow Farms, but the point stands. |
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This development team has made it a very clear point that they don't want to half-*** content and churn it out on a conveyor belt, despite the fact that they COULD. Players have shown that THEY can, so the developers ought to. Instead, they've been trying to make content that's better than anything players could do, and that just takes more time and effort. Maybe you can make an argument that they're wrong and that they SHOULD just make a bunch of simplified "go there, kill that" missions and flood us with new content, but that's entirely separate from asking that TFs be made and all the artwork and maps made for them then be entirely scrapped and never reused. |
Just my opinion, but I would like to see both implemented.
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Thousands of arcs by the sheer number, but a great many of those are unfinished, not even worked on, test arcs or, again, farms. And yes, people do farm the ITF, but it is, in fact, a decent TF. A large map filled with Comm Officers is not, and yes, I'm aware that that got fixed.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
Um...that's neat, but it's opinion. And opinion that really could be easily proven misinformed if not flatly wrong. THOUSANDS of arcs have been published since AE launched, and most of them aren't farms.
And you DO realize most people "farm" the ITF, LGTF, etc, all of which are part of your praised ongoing, in game storyline, right? Hell, I run the thing probably 5 times a week. Does that suddenly unconvince you that ongoing storylines and content is a waste of time? |
If the Architect is your argument for good content, I will concede there is some good content there. If the Architect is your argument for the ease of creating good content or the propensity of good content, then I disagree. Almost everything in the Architect is garbage, including most of the top-rated stuff. No offence to the developers, but that includes the Architect arcs THEY made, as well. I tried them, and I'd pick BoneFire over that.
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| Oh, also...wasn't the latest TF released the 5th column TFs? Didnt those enemies already exist? Did that somehow make it a "lesser" TF? |
If you don't see the immense ways that some of the popular AE arcs influenced Going Rogue, then we need to team up in the AE sometime. That being said, I think you -missed- the point. I wasn't saying making TFs was easy, I said it didn't -have- to be a massive draw on resources. Mini-tfs or new dev-made AE TFs would satisfy many, many people if they knew that they were coming out in a semi-regular basis, and still allow the "real" content of things like true TFs and Going Rogue, etc. to occur.[/quote]
This is one of a VERY few cases where my response is "eh, whatever." If you're satisfied with mediocre, rushed arcs with corners cut for a fast turnover rate, then that's your prerogative. I prefer high-quality material that extends the lore of existing factions and storylines, myself. I want to see Primal Earth's Tub Chi, I want to see more stories about the Family, I want to see a story explaining the Possessed Scientists, or explaining what is up with the Nerva Sepcters, I'd like a deeper look into the Goldbrickers and the Luddites, I want more lore around the Cap Au Diable demons, things like that.
I utterly DO NOT CARE about "elseworld" equivalent stories, and it seems a lot of Architect stuff is exactly that. Keep your prodigious custom factions. I prefer to stick with the established NPCs, myself.
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| See, I don't see it as an "either/or" like you seem to. Even with limited resources, you can devote a small amount to doing small things. As I pointed out, if a creative person can churn out a decent, well written, suprising and fun arc in the AE in a couple of days, a single decent developer could do so as well. Meaning coming up with 3-4 a year would be a MINOR use of resources. Now get rid of the AE aspect and add in some unique maps and artwork, and you STILL have a relatively minor resource investment for the return you'd get in ongoing player satisfaction at "never" running out of new things to try. |
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You know what really bugs me? You're basically asking for more filler. And I HATE filler. I hate it when a series I'd been following suddenly swaps settings with something completely unrelated and introduces a cadre of new characters that last all of a few episodes before the manga catches back up with the anime. It is, in its bare essence, dead air. It's a kludge to fill up spots where there isn't ACTUAL content. And the work this produces has never, ever impressed me.
I would sooner have NOTHING new added, than having filler put in to "tide me over." Quality before quantity in all things is something I firmly believe in.
HOWEVER
If we MUST have filler added into the game, then I want it to expand on existing factions and storylines, not be a "one-shot." I HATE one-shots.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So your experience with the AE has been drastically differen than mine. Since I use it quite a bit, and it SOUNDS like you don't, Im gonna assume that I'm more experienced at what's actualy available in the AE. Half of your complaints can be washed away simply by properly using its search function, for cryin' out luod. That being said, it's all opinion and taste, so it's a wash. Neither of us is "right," we just disagree.
I WILL say that Ive played quite a few finished arcs in the AE that actually are BETTER than many of the contacts and arcs we have in the game, which isn't suprising since many of the arcs and contacts we have in the game were here at launch or in the first several issues. If I had to choose between having nothing to do but those same, tired contacts and arcs Ive already run hundres of times each for six-12 months while 12 developers worked on big, high quality, jaw dropping new content, or every three months having new contacts or mini-TFs published to run while I wait the 6-12 months for -11- developers to publish the next big, high quality, jaw dropping new content, I'd take the latter any day.
And it's funny to me that the very thing you said makes the new TFs worth the wait and so much more desireable than smaller mini-tfs or one shots (new unique maps, new game mechanics, deeper storylines) is EXACTLY what you say was he problem with the new 5th column TF (terrible fight mechanics, bad writing, and igrnoriing current game lore.)
anyway, for me...
/signed
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I just want to touch on this: The problems with the Khan TF in particular come down to very simple basics, not high-cost development stuff. The problem with the TF is that it was written by someone who apparently didn't know the first thing about 5th Column lore and botched the story up SO BAD that it ain't even funny. The other problem is that Reichsman is a realitydefyingly boring fight. The dude has a million zillion hit points and a lot of resistance. That's basically it. The "dimension disruptor" gimmick is actually interesting (for what it is), but it's so woefully underused that it might as well not even exist. The game essentially pauses itself every once in a while, and you're expected to unpause it, QTE-style.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
And it's funny to me that the very thing you said makes the new TFs worth the wait and so much more desireable than smaller mini-tfs or one shots (new unique maps, new game mechanics, deeper storylines) is EXACTLY what you say was he problem with the new 5th column TF (terrible fight mechanics, bad writing, and igrnoriing current game lore.)
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It had new maps which are really cool and have propagated elsewhere (such as the new cape mission) and Reichsman's M. Bison inspired costume is pretty sweet. And while those would have been great additions to a half-decent TF, writing and choreography sink the Khan TF so fast it's scary.
Furthermore, I highly suspect we disagree on what "good" arcs constitutes when it comes to the Architect. I haven't played too many, I will admit, but I've tried to almost exclusively play high-rated arcs that people have been raving about and praising very highly. I have never been more disappointed in my life. Not only are the majority of them unplayable for my characters, but I have yet to appreciate the "humour" in anything the Architect has to offer.
Again - if more of the Architect "best" is what you want to see, then literally: "Whatever." But I still feel that it would be a gigantic waste, much in the same way as I feel I wasted my time writing my arcs. At the very least I would hope these things are not unrelated standalones.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Actually, we may agree on the highest rated. I HATE the humorous arcs in the AE with a passion, which is why always skip that option in the search function.
Ive also found almost all of the guest writer arcs to be horrible, but have found very many fun, well made player arcs. I'd say MOST of the completed, full arcs (as opposed to 1 mission stuff) rivals or beats many of the in game contact arcs, and there's not running around 7 different zones to "talk to" someone! :-)
I don't really like the idea of "one shot TFs". There are a lot of stories which I would rather see continued within the standard CoH world before I see them expand into areas completely sepperated from the lore. Already I feel like there might not be enough depth for what is currently there.
You know, one thing I think about this is that it's really just more of a personal opinion/philosophy differnce than actual "disagreement."
Pretty much EVERY contact and TF currently in the game right now focusses only on already existing, commonly faced, thoroughly explore villains. Do we REALLY need to know more about the Council, the Circle, the Freaks, the clockwork, arachnos, etc? We face them repeatedly from level 1-5o, alwys getting more "bits" about them from existing contacts. This makes sense since the contacts function like your monthly issue, where you lear a little bit each time the batman faces an enemy, and the enemy is fleshed out over time.
To me, TFs should feel like the special "team up" issues in comics, where suddenly Wolverine and Spiderman are fighting side by side against some unique threat. You can read this and get a fun kick, or skip it and not miss a ton in the storyline. This CAN be against an already established set of villains, but it should show them in a really new, unseen way (usually teamed up with another set to pose an even greater threat), not just explore their background a little more or another typical "we're building a super-weopon! muahahaha!" plotline.
Raids and zone events would be the equivalent of Galactus or Darkest Night or the Infinity Gauntlet, etc. Those are BIG, typically one baddie stories that are short but deal with a threat that dwarfs everone else.
So I'd be fine with seeing more contacts going deeper into faction backstories and driving the ongoing CoH lore foreward. To me, that's what contacts are for, the "monthly issues" storylines that do that. I'd actually like to see some of the original contacts redesigned (and a few have been, like Posi) to do this in a more advanced way.
I'd love to see TFs function more like special issue/one shot team-ups where something fresh and new pops up that needs previously unteamed heroes to work together. It's the equivalent of the foil embossed, abashadly "it's fanboy marketting" comics that come out once or twice a year. It's fun, but it's not usually the main driving force of the comic storyline.
Raids like the CoP, Hamidon, Rikti Invasion, etc. should be the Galactus style mega-crossovers. And frankly, we need more of these, too. :-P
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In a nutshell: Yeah, I feel we do. I've tried to not bring this into the discussion for so long, but I just have to: basic anime vs. basic Western animation, or in other words a continuous story vs. episodic, unrelated stories.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
Pretty much EVERY contact and TF currently in the game right now focusses only on already existing, commonly faced, thoroughly explore villains. Do we REALLY need to know more about the Council, the Circle, the Freaks, the clockwork, arachnos, etc?
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Personally, I have always, always, ALWAYS been much more a fan of the anime format of one story that takes up, say, 20 hours stretched over 60 episodes, rather than 60 or so small, barely-related stories all self-contained that almost never reference each other. The latter just doesn't interest me, because it is forced to squash down an entire story's narrative down into 20 minutes, and you can't really have a three-act story take place in 20 minutes and be decent. Not that I've seen. A segmented story design allows each episode to build on the previous episode's storyline and go from there. You can still have a three-act story (if you MUST), but instead of each act being 7 minutes or so, each act is 20 episodes or so.
In City of Heroes, I really like how the stories are made, in that they feed off each other. One story reveals that the Circle of Thorns are an ancient civilization of disembodied ghosts, then the next one shows them acting like one and summoning a great demon. I like that. I like it a lot. I like it when some stories represents plot revelations while subsequent stories take those old revelations as common knowledge and build off them. I don't want each new story to have to do all the work in itself, because that simply makes it feel crammed and rushed. It's one of the reasons I didn't want to bother with the Architect, because I KNEW that no matter how epic a story felt, it would never, EVER stretch more than five missions, so something would have to happen to rush it.
I'd sooner do a slow, plodding 20-mission storyline like Crimson's World Wide Red - an arc which has A TON of storyline to deliver and even then has room for ambience - over the curt three-mission arcs that we've been plagued with ever since CoV popularised that. I prefer consistent storylines. I prefer consistent bad guys. Every time the story shifts gears and starts introducing a bunch of new threats, that comes together with the old plotline with a very audible clunk.
Of course, I can't really do TFs, and even if I could, it's impossible to follow their stories. So, obviously, I want to ensure that missing a TF does not rob me of a story that's of vital importance, like the Cavern of Transcendence and Kathie Hannon TFs do. But at the same time, I still want them to be about enemy factions I care about, or I don't care about the TF. I don't want to suddenly speak with Positron when he goes "Onoes! These frog aliens from Zeta-Epsilon-Jerkass are invading because... You know, I wrote a book about the. Here, read THIS!"
Any story which attempts to establish a new enemy from whole cloth, give him depth and characterisation, explain his backstory, explain his plan, have that plan enacted, have that plan foiled and then have that threat removed such that we're all back to status quo and nothing has changed, all in the same story... Either sucks, or has to be LOOOOOOOOONG. Crimson's World Wide Red is kind of like that, and that's 24 and change missions long, and it's still on the short side AND it still benefits from Indigo's Missing Melvin and the Mysterious Malta Alliteration. An arc that tried to tell that without Malta ever having been established AND ending with them defeated would need to push 50 missions, at least, and that's just absurd.
If you want short stories, you need to tie them into something else such that they can reference narrative delivered outside of their short spans. If you don't, you end up with FILLER. And I hate filler more than anything else in storytelling.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Glad you don't but I would love to see more stories that are interesting and don't tie into the main ones which are generally meh.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I disagree. Having a consistent storyline that evolves and makes sense is far superior to unrelated episodic tales that are never spoken of again once they are over. This has been my gripe with television shows for years now, and I do not want to bring that in this game.
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| Furthermore, creating brand new maps and enemy factions for one single TF sounds like a colossal waste of resources, and to be honest, I don't see how "going into space" has anything more to do with super heroes than going back in time. Considering half of Marvel's heroes are either Norse gods or Greek holdovers, I don't see the point. |
o.O
I'm really confused.
At one point you said you DON'T want one shot TFs because a TF should drive the established storyline of the game along and one-shots would be filler and waste resources.
Then I suggested they could be mini-tfs, even possibly Dev created AE arcs, that don't take up massive resources but still supply fresh, interesting, non-crucial content while we wait for the big stuff.
THEN Your reply was that you'd just end up with garbage like the AE is filled with, and thus didn't approve.
Then I pointed out that the AE has a TON of well done arcs that are every bit as fun and interesting as normal, in-game arcs.
Then you said that you don't really use the AE. You've only touched it a handful of times.
Then I pointed out that they could really function more like special issue comics do, in my opinion, which are more for kicks than anything else. These have their purpose just like the ongoing storylines do, and the more established TFs, raids, etc.
Then you said that you don't really run TFs, but if you did you'd really not want them to hold crucial information that drive the story forward because in case you missed out on it. Plus, you said you can't follow their stories anyway. But they should still be about the same old villains, because...um...otherwise you wouldn't care about the TFs...which you don't run.
??
So essentially, you don't like the OPs idea because you read manga, and you wish this comic-based MMO, firmly establishing itself as the MMO of the western comic book super hero (primarily silver age, at that), were more manga-like and only had one contact, who gave out a single arc consisting of missions that led you from 1-50. Should it be black and white, too, and should the missions run in reverse? Otherwise none of your reasoning in this thread is consistent or really makes any logical sense except "I don't like one-shots."
By the way, where were you a year ago when I was part of a static SG that used a mixture of the AE and in game contacts to run a single, ongoing storyline for us from 1-50. We actually made it to the mid-30s before scheduling changes made it end. It was a fun way to make the game feel fresh, and still adhere to the "canon" of the regular contacts while getting an entirely new storyline about the true "origins" of powers and how that affected our characters.
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Um, care to actually quote me on any of that? In fact, let's go point for point:|
Originally Posted by opprime28
o.O
I'm really confused. At one point you said you DON'T want one shot TFs because a TF should drive the established storyline of the game along and one-shots would be filler and waste resources. Then I suggested they could be mini-tfs, even possibly Dev created AE arcs, that don't take up massive resources but still supply fresh, interesting, non-crucial content while we wait for the big stuff. THEN Your reply was that you'd just end up with garbage like the AE is filled with, and thus didn't approve. Then I pointed out that the AE has a TON of well done arcs that are every bit as fun and interesting as normal, in-game arcs. Then you said that you don't really use the AE. You've only touched it a handful of times. Then I pointed out that they could really function more like special issue comics do, in my opinion, which are more for kicks than anything else. These have their purpose just like the ongoing storylines do, and the more established TFs, raids, etc. Then you said that you don't really run TFs, but if you did you'd really not want them to hold crucial information that drive the story forward because in case you missed out on it. Plus, you said you can't follow their stories anyway. But they should still be about the same old villains, because...um...otherwise you wouldn't care about the TFs...which you don't run. |
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At one point you said you DON'T want one shot TFs because a TF should drive the established storyline of the game along and one-shots would be filler and waste resources. Then I suggested they could be mini-tfs, even possibly Dev created AE arcs, that don't take up massive resources but still supply fresh, interesting, non-crucial content while we wait for the big stuff. |
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THEN Your reply was that you'd just end up with garbage like the AE is filled with, and thus didn't approve. Then I pointed out that the AE has a TON of well done arcs that are every bit as fun and interesting as normal, in-game arcs. |
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| Then you said that you don't really use the AE. You've only touched it a handful of times. |
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| Then I pointed out that they could really function more like special issue comics do, in my opinion, which are more for kicks than anything else. These have their purpose just like the ongoing storylines do, and the more established TFs, raids, etc. |
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| Then you said that you don't really run TFs, but if you did you'd really not want them to hold crucial information that drive the story forward because in case you missed out on it. Plus, you said you can't follow their stories anyway. But they should still be about the same old villains, because...um...otherwise you wouldn't care about the TFs...which you don't run. |
I don't do TFs because they require multiple people on the team, and when you have multiple people on the team, with only the team leader ever getting the full story (i.e. the debriefings), they are impossible to follow. Do you want to dispute that?
TFs should have their own unique stories woven into the fabric of the game's plot, but they should have stories with plotlines which begin and end with them. I don't want to run a story arc, and them mid-way through to be told "If you want to see the end, you must do this TF." The Hollows storyline is exactly like this. You spend 10 levels hearing about this mystical gateway, and right when you're about to find it, BAM! You need 8 people to do this. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks.
This doesn't give TFs excuse to be garbage. This doesn't give TFs excuse to have poor stories. This means that the TF system needs to be improved. Rather than capitalising on all of the ways it sucks by introducing someone's afternoon of work, I prefer to see the system improved such that the story that is told is available to everyone on the team AS IT HAPPENS. I'm tired of Alt-Tabbing to ParagonWiki to read what I should be seeing in-game off a third-party sight because my team leader was an ******* and just clicked through the narrative. Ideally, I'd like to be able to attempt to do these by myself, with scaling enemies and all that, but without the TF reward. Maybe then I'll be able to see the story without massive changes in TF dynamics.
I don't like the OP's idea because it suggests something I do not want to see. You've phrased the same thing five different ways, but you present it as five different ideas that I've somehow brought different arguments to. You say the same thing in every post here, and I repeat the same thing, myself. I don't care if it's like the Architect or if it's like a comic book. I want new TFs added to the game to feel like they are part of the game's narrative, but to tell their own stories that don't interrupt other arcs mid-way through. I don't mind TFs referencing old arcs and their events. In fact, I expect them to. But I want them to start from a beginning, not from the middle of a previous story that mutated.
That's what my argument has always been. I don't stories that suddenly introduce a brand new villain at the start and kill off that brand new villain at the end, and no matter how you twist your words, that's what you're asking for. That's Architect level up "yawn." But, hey, if the architect is so full of flowers and sunshine as you claim, why not just run missions from there? Because what you're suggesting is pretty much that - that developers give us Architect arcs presented as TFs. Castle already has at least one arc published, doesn't he?
Cut the malicious arguments, please. I don't want one-shot TFs no matter how you describe them. I want TFs that expand on existing factions in new and interesting ways. If you want basically more of the Architect, then "whatever." I don't.
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| By the way, where were you a year ago when I was part of a static SG that used a mixture of the AE and in game contacts to run a single, ongoing storyline for us from 1-50. We actually made it to the mid-30s before scheduling changes made it end. It was a fun way to make the game feel fresh, and still adhere to the "canon" of the regular contacts while getting an entirely new storyline about the true "origins" of powers and how that affected our characters. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Um, care to actually quote me on any of that?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Furthermore, I highly suspect we disagree on what "good" arcs constitutes when it comes to the Architect. I haven't played too many [arcs], I will admit, but I've tried to almost exclusively play high-rated arcs that people have been raving about and praising very highly. I have never been more disappointed in my life.
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You just said you haven't even played very many arcs, and the ones you HAVE played are the ones that were "rated" by the very people you seem to suggest have destroyed the AE.
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| I don't recall you saying anything of the sort, but I could have missed it. I know for a fact that I never responded to anything like that, because I have no idea what that even means. You can't put "special issue comics" in a video game, because "comics" are not a game infrastructure. You have to employ them as SOMETHING, be it arc, TF or multi-part mission. |
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Originally Posted by opprime28
You know, one thing I think about this is that it's really just more of a personal opinion/philosophy differnce than actual "disagreement."
... Pretty much EVERY contact and TF currently in the game right now focusses only on already existing, commonly faced, thoroughly explore villains. Do we REALLY need to know more about the Council, the Circle, the Freaks, the clockwork, arachnos, etc? We face them repeatedly from level 1-5o, alwys getting more "bits" about them from existing contacts. This makes sense since the contacts function like your monthly issue, where you lear a little bit each time the batman faces an enemy, and the enemy is fleshed out over time. I'd love to see TFs function more like special issue/one shot team-ups where something fresh and new pops up that needs previously unteamed heroes to work together. It's the equivalent of the foil embossed, abashadly "it's fanboy marketting" comics that come out once or twice a year. It's fun, but it's not usually the main driving force of the comic storyline. Raids like the CoP, Hamidon, Rikti Invasion, etc. should be the Galactus style mega-crossovers. And frankly, we need more of these, too. :-P |
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| Forget reading what I write, which you clearly didn't. Do you even read what YOU write? No, I don't do many TFs, and that's not because I don't want to. I want to, but the TF system in itself is screwed up. |
You have a hard time following TF storylines when they're run? Check. You'd prefer TFs not have crucial lore? Check. You still want them to be about established groups? Check.
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| I don't do TFs because they require multiple people on the team, and when you have multiple people on the team, with only the team leader ever getting the full story (i.e. the debriefings), they are impossible to follow. Do you want to dispute that?...I'd like to be able to attempt to do these by myself, with scaling enemies and all that, but without the TF reward. Maybe then I'll be able to see the story without massive changes in TF dynamics. |
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| I don't like the OP's idea because it suggests something I do not want to see. You've phrased the same thing five different ways, but you present it as five different ideas that I've somehow brought different arguments. |
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| You say the same thing in every post here, and I repeat the same thing, myself. |
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| Cut the malicious arguments, please. I don't want one-shot TFs no matter how you describe them. I want TFs that expand on existing factions in new and interesting ways. If you want basically more of the Architect, then "whatever." I don't. |
For me, I'd much rather have both simpler, fun content coming out AND complex, more jaw-dropping content. I was thrilled when the new contacts came out with the doppleganger missions, because even though they were short and quick, they were fresh and new. I'd love to see some things like that coming out every issue, even if it meant that the storylines weren't ties directly to existing canon. It looks like the OP and I aren't alone either. We get it, you aren't interested. Cool.
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| You made yourselves a puppet show. Congratulations. I don't remember where I was a year ago, but even if I were present, I would want nothing to do with that sort of thing, especially with trying to redefine a concept as embarrassingly out-of-place as the "origin of powers" notion. I'm glad you had fun - more power to you. But if this is the kind of "fun" you have in mind for the broader public game, then I have to say "do not want." |
Actually, we had exactly the sort of system you're supposedly looking for. Existing game concepts, characters, and storylines were woven together with a new addition, in an ongoing story that was "deep" enough to last for 35 levels and still have several unforseen twists and turns, all that fell in line with in game lore and backgrounds (specifically, the Destined Ones of Arachnos, the Mu/Circle backstory, the Cimerorans, The Legacy Chain, The Midnighters, Longbow, Manticore and Sister Psyche, and the 5 differing power origins.) Not sure how "puppet show" applies to this anymore than to what -you're- doing, but meh.
I'm fine with what you not being interested in the OPs suggestion. My main beef is how you keep claiming some sort of inferiority of the concept to the current TFs, when it's simply a matter of taste. Just as you find "filler" boring, I find most of the game's factions, many of whom are simply rip-offs of existing comics factions, to have been explored thoroughly enough. I'd like to see some new, fresh, yet still well written threats emerge. I'd also like to have both well thought out arcs that require time to run and offer enough story to spark thought created AND things that are simpler, but still fun, unique, and offered more often. I don't think it needs to be either/or, as I said before.
And, as I said about 5 posts ago, it's simply a difference of opinion. We don't need to sit here and argue with each other personally. We've both stated what we'd like to see more of, less of, etc. I think the OPs original idea has merrit. You don't. We both have our reasons, based largely on our own personal interests and play styles.
Yep, my intent was just a change of pace and something fresh and new. When I used to collect comics, I was always 'wowed' by the new, wild/cool looking enemy/ally or whatever. CoH has over 6.5 years and we kinda see the same old far too often. It'd be nice to run into something brand new on your journey up to 50. Something you will not experience anywhere else. Instead of new zones, make completely original TFs/SFs (yes, including mission map and enemy groups). Constantly adding the same stuff with a slight change is getting painful 
Finding some good AE arcs, is probably what you're looking for.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Probably a good alternative if it doesn't happen in the dev-created content.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Finding some good AE arcs, is probably what you're looking for.
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But I agree that it would be nice to sometimes find something new when following a random tip, or even a TF. Rather than "Oh, it's Council. Apply tactic C, and if it's a TF, brace for 6 missions full of council in their happy well known halloween mix of werewolves, vampires, aliens, and wannabe-nazis, all in each spawn.
SOME missions arcs / TFs / SFs have that, having a canon (fodder) group as filler but in the end something epic that you have never seen before, like the eye of the Liviathan, Bat'zul, the psi crystal caves, or even the Thorn Tree vines.
But it would also be nice to encounter a group of critters you have never met before, having to wonder what they do or why or who is behind it. Even if the group has hardly special quirks nor many different types, and the guy behind is just another villain who wants to blow up the earth or transdimensional thing or what have you, it would still be refreshing for not being one of the groups you know by heart already.
So, after being here for a while, I can't help but notice the CoH canon is very intertwined. I think there needs to be a bit more 'one shots'. A bit of a departure from the usual canon and something you can and it will all be right there; no more seeing them over and over all over the place. The uniqueness would also be a solid draw for players, IMO. Encountering a group, arch-enemy etc. in just one location or mission....or a TF/SF.
I think doing something like this would allow the CoH staff to stray from canon and just go nuts in a creative manner. It would be nice to see something more super hero-ish than we have been getting lately. I love the ITF but it's ancient Romans mixed in with a faction I don't really care for.
How about something new. Something epic. Make it a TF and with all original maps. Something like a galactic journey with all new aliens etc. They could also do another TF based under water and give us some maps of that nature. This may also cure some player's itch for new zones with these themes. This game has way too many zones as it is.
Perhaps a small, dedicated Dev team to produce there between issues. So we could see 2-3 unique TFs/SFs a year on top of a regular issue (maybe the issue is a tad lighter due to a split of resources but who knows).
I really think GR is decent and generated significant interest in this game once again. I just think it would be cool to focus on giving us more high quality TFs like the ITF.