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Man, why isn't Fire/Fire the best DPS? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Bottom line: if you're looking for the absolute best on-paper level 50 money is no object scrapper damage dealer, you're probably looking at either Dark Melee/Shields or Fiery Melee/Shields. Maybe Claws/Shields for AoE more than single target. Or, if you're going all out on recharge and willing to do the homework yourself, KM/Shields for single target may be a strong play.
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Quote:
I suspect strongly a fire/fire/soul will blow a fire/shield out of the water on single target, but frankly, it's such an extreme build I can't be bothered to try one out.|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Man, why isn't Fire/Fire the best DPS?
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I am lazy.
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Mostly AAO, although to be honest I haven't done any calculations based on the new Burn. Between that and the new Fiery Embrace, its possible Fire/Fire is up there especially on AoE damage with Burn.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Man, why isn't Fire/Fire the best DPS?
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Best AoE damage, fine with me. At least that's something to cling onto to, considering it has one of the worst amount of damage mitigation. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Mostly AAO, although to be honest I haven't done any calculations based on the new Burn. Between that and the new Fiery Embrace, its possible Fire/Fire is up there especially on AoE damage with Burn.
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My Fire/Fire scrapper has the best mitigation in the game, bar none......dead things don't attack me. (even nastier after i18/GR buffs/changes)
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Best AoE damage, fine with me. At least that's something to cling onto to, considering it has one of the worst amount of damage mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Lascher
My Fire/Fire scrapper has the best mitigation in the game, bar none......dead things don't attack me. (even nastier after i18/GR buffs/changes)
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My new claw/fire is...nice. And that's on a meatball leveling build and cheap L30 IO's.
So verah niiice....
To be too serious, when DPS is the topic, we also tend to be talking about hard targets, since hard targets are where DPS is most relevant. For regular spawns, burst and AoE damage are more relevant. For the harder of the hard targets, "kill them before they kill me" isn't a particularly good mitigation strategy, because they're going to be in your face for quite a while, and are putting out damage at a clip. I say this while currently leveling two Scrappers that I'm building and playing more like blappers (MA/Fire and Electric/Fire). So I'm not saying that pure damage is a bad strategy in general, just that it is of much more limited use against the kinds of targets that DPS is most relevant to.
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It is a good strategy if you're willing to give up the hardcoreness inherent to the Scrapper AT and use the resources that are readily available to you (i.e. use the inspirations in your bat-belt). In which case it becomes "kill them before I run out of insps"
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Originally Posted by Werner
For the harder of the hard targets, "kill them before they kill me" isn't a particularly good mitigation strategy, because they're going to be in your face for quite a while, and are putting out damage at a clip.
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The original topic was about primary powers. Tho I just realised Fiery Embrace is not a "build up"-like power, it allows you to go beyond the damage cap. Anyone knows how AAO, Follow Up or Power Siphon works in term of buff stacking?
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AAO is a toggle which adds damage for every foe in melee range up to a large limit.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
The original topic was about primary powers. Tho I just realised Fiery Embrace is not a "build up"-like power, it allows you to go beyond the damage cap. Anyone knows how AAO, Follow Up or Power Siphon works in term of buff stacking?
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Followup is a fast-animating, low damage attack that adds a smallish bonus to hit and damage every time it hits. With lotsa recharge, it is fairly easy to stack it up twice and pretty much keep it that way IF you are quick between spawns.
Power Siphon is a no-damage click power that enables all of your OTHER attacks that hit to add damage buffs as an inherent freebie for as long as it lasts. In effect, with a very fast attack chain, it steadily ramps up your bonus damage to a peak, then it ramps back down again after it expires.
Of the three, AAO is hands-down the best in my opinion. It is automatic, and functions best when in a target rich environment. There is zero negative impact to your attack chain, because it requires zero animation time. There's no chance to miss, it requires no monitoring or care. Just cram yourself into the midst of the baddies and lay waste.
Followup is very nice, except that it displaces more potent attacks in your attack chain and can miss. Make no mistake, it's very nice, and very worth it, but with some issues. It also has a 'ramp up' time if you ever pause more than second or two between fights. In practice it feels a bit like chasing a brute's fury bar: If you pause, you lose.
Power Siphon is even slower to ramp up than Followup, but peaks a lot higher and lasts a lot longer. if you have a pause in attacking you have to wind it up again. It's like followup on steroids.
The real joker is the fact that the KM tier9, on a scrap, has a 20 percent chance per hit of recharging it instantly.If so, you can then fire it up again as soon as it expires. The downside is, it's finicky. You have to monitor your buff status closely, which I find a pain. YMMV.
Is that what you were after?
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If my information is correct, the added damage from fiery embrace is enhanceable... which means it can be boosted by follow up and power siphon. Not from AAO though since you can't have firey embrace on a shield toon.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
The original topic was about primary powers. Tho I just realised Fiery Embrace is not a "build up"-like power, it allows you to go beyond the damage cap. Anyone knows how AAO, Follow Up or Power Siphon works in term of buff stacking?
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kin/fire has some serious potential, but I don't know of anyone who's managed to come up with a calculation that accounts for all of it's complexities.
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No no no, my point is: Scrapper damage cap is +400% (and you hit that on second FS and about steady on that with a good Kin), Fiery Embrace raise it OVER it because its not couted on the +damage line. What about the other damage boost?
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Fiery Embrace is the only power in the game (that I know of so far) that has the new 'added damage' mechanism. |
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
No no no, my point is: Scrapper damage cap is +400% (and you hit that on second FS and about steady on that with a good Kin), Fiery Embrace raise it OVER it because its not couted on the +damage line. What about the other damage boost?
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That said, Shred has good points:
KM/fire can stack (I believe) Power Siphon and Fiery Embrace. The numbers here.... Whew.
Claws/fire, Dark Melee/fire, and Dual Blades/fire can stack followup/soul drain/blinding feint and Fiery Embrace. Less impressive than the above, but still not shabby by any stretch.
KM/sd can stack Power Siphon and AAO. This is subject to the usual damage caps, though.
Of the above, the least twiddly would be the KM/sd. By a wide margin.
The reason DM/sd does so well currently (in single target DPS) is via stacking self-buffs like this.
....
...which naturally segues into my Standard Rant number 3, "When are the Dev's going to address infinitely stackable buffs?"
But that's a topic for another day.
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Domination had it (and still has a form of it, with added mez instead of damage).*|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Fiery Embrace is the only power in the game (that I know of so far) that has the new 'added damage' mechanism.
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IMO, Defiance should have been handled this way as it would have been a much more controlled way to balance AoE vs single target attacks (in addition to a few other benefits).
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Originally Posted by mauk2
...which naturally segues into my Standard Rant number 3, "When are the Dev's going to address infinitely stackable buffs?"
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*Edit: I was wrong and just thinking of how the extra mez works. Domination's extra damage was a straight up damage buff.
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Quote:
Fiery Embrace is not a damage buff, and thus has nothing to do with the damage buff cap (and what we call the "damage cap" is really the "damage buff cap"). Fiery Embrace is more like a proc: when its up your attacks do a separate "tick" of damage. That tick is pure damage, not a damage buff.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
No no no, my point is: Scrapper damage cap is +400% (and you hit that on second FS and about steady on that with a good Kin), Fiery Embrace raise it OVER it because its not couted on the +damage line. What about the other damage boost?
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Saying FE allows you to go over the damage cap is kind of like saying putting five damage procs into Brawl allow it to go over the damage cap of Brawl. I understand the sentiment that is being attempted to be expressed, but its something to avoid because it can cause confusion when people try to figure out what's going on and end up thinking the wrong things about the power.
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I think people are just doing a before/after comparison kind of thing. Technically it is a proc, but technically it is a damage buff, considering it gets augmented by damage and the damage an attack does. Buff, proc, it doesn't really matter to me. I just call it Awesome.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Fiery Embrace is not a damage buff, and thus has nothing to do with the damage buff cap (and what we call the "damage cap" is really the "damage buff cap"). Fiery Embrace is more like a proc: when its up your attacks do a separate "tick" of damage. That tick is pure damage, not a damage buff.
Saying FE allows you to go over the damage cap is kind of like saying putting five damage procs into Brawl allow it to go over the damage cap of Brawl. I understand the sentiment that is being attempted to be expressed, but its something to avoid because it can cause confusion when people try to figure out what's going on and end up thinking the wrong things about the power. |
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How does FE actually work now? I know it is affected by other effects/powers (rage, fury, etc.), but what about +damage % bonuses from IOs?
Quote:
While FE is active, all of your AT's primary and secondary attacks (and possibly APP/PPP attacks as well, not sure) have a 100% chance to deal roughly 45% of their base damage as additional fire damage. Anything that would increase your base damage (i.e. any source of +dam) is going to increase the amount of damage that FE contributes. Because of how it works, whatever +dam you have in the power that you are activating augments the damage that FE "provides".|
Originally Posted by Carnal
How does FE actually work now? I know it is affected by other effects/powers (rage, fury, etc.), but what about +damage % bonuses from IOs?
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For example, imagine an attack that normally deals 100 lethal damage. With no +dam and FE active, it would deal 100 lethal damage and 45 fire damage. With 95% +dam and FE active, it would deal 195 lethal damage and 87.75 fire damage. Essentially, FE provides you with roughly a 45% increase in your total DPS because it simply makes you attacks deal more base damage.
Am I perceiving this right when I think 'Wow, this should make FE for brutes very strong,' because they're pouring it through so much baseline damage buff? Or am I just counting six of one and half a dozen of the other?
That's a good question. I'll leave that to the math people.
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It works off of your base damage, so it'll be correspondingly lower with the Brute's damage scale. In such a case, I would imagine it would even out (more or less). It might still be a bit better just from the sheer number of damage buffs you could stack with it though (like Rage + Fury).|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Am I perceiving this right when I think 'Wow, this should make FE for brutes very strong,' because they're pouring it through so much baseline damage buff? Or am I just counting six of one and half a dozen of the other?
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On the flipside, I'm sure it's crazy with scrappers. Power Siphon can be a very reliable +100% dmg buff even early game for it to be pretty amazing.
I'd assume that the extra buff from fury is countered by the lower base damage that Brutes do, just like with all Brute attacks. I'd expect it to be a wash. I haven't actually checked anything, though. Hmmm, I'm actively leveling two /Fire characters. You'd think I'd pay attention, but I totally wing it while I'm leveling. And I think next on the list of things I want to check the numbers on is the new Martial Arts. Then I should have a look at Kinetic Melee. Maybe then Fire. Then Kinetic Melee/Fire, since that's bound to be confusing. So many numbers to crunch, so little time. Maybe I should play the game some time too. 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Domination had it (and still has a form of it, with added mez instead of damage).
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nope, Domination was a straight-up +dam.
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Since the added damage from FE is boosted by damage buffs (right?),the power is a straight 45%, across the board, multiplicative damage increase. If a Brute and a Scrapper are doing the same damage before FE, they'll do the same damage with FE as well.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Am I perceiving this right when I think 'Wow, this should make FE for brutes very strong,' because they're pouring it through so much baseline damage buff? Or am I just counting six of one and half a dozen of the other?
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Upon second thought, I don't know if FE hits can crit, so that might throw things off, but it will still be pretty close.
As I said in my first post in this topic:
If all you care about is damage, the ONLY CHOICE is fire melee.
It's fire melee.
Really, honest to god, it's FIRE MELEE.
Go forth and commence burnin'.