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Other than perhaps my attempt at humor, what's failed? It's pretty much right - if Nintendo was going to stick with CD's then they wouldn't have scrapped that project, which was being developed through partnership with Sony. If that had happened, Sony would not have developed their own console. They had no interest in doing so.
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Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Fixed.
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@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
my main complaint with bob is that i think he undersells the psp. It isnt going to overtake the ds, but looking at its strength on the Japanese sales charts, it consistently is within the top 3 individual skus, and often is on the top. Now ds has multiple skus, so it wins consistently, but it REALLY is stretching to say it "just failed less" it is competing against an unbeatable foe, but it sold like mad in japan(lets all ignore the psp go, everyone else has). That said, i dont really have issue with his comments, sony did a lot of things right, but as a new entry in the market, It is doubtful that it would have secured the third party support if they felt that the larger, more established entities had a chance, sega smashed themselves against the wall, and nintendo suffered against yamauchi's stubbornness. heck, when nintendo lost square, i think we all knew that japan was lost for them.
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Actually, it doesn't matter how they did it, a CD-based console for Nintendo would have killed Sony's plans, even if the betrayal still took place. Square-Enix only ditched Nintendo because they stuck with cartridges (SE has no concept of loyalty, as they demonstrated to both Nintendo and, unsurpringly to anyone but Sony fanboys, Sony, so what Nintendo did to Sony probably didn't bother Squaresoft in the least).
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Originally Posted by Quasadu
Other than perhaps my attempt at humor, what's failed? It's pretty much right - if Nintendo was going to stick with CD's then they wouldn't have scrapped that project, which was being developed through partnership with Sony. If that had happened, Sony would not have developed their own console. They had no interest in doing so.
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[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
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yeah, but their msitake still was what motivated square's move. you remember they had that concept video of the ffVI guys, they would have stuck with nintendo if yamauchi didnt hate those dang kids on his lawn. (and he did it again in the gc era with his dislike of online gaming)
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But what I'm saying is if the only bad thing they had done was screw Sony, and if they had just made a CD-based console with someone else, then Sony would still have been left out in the cold, because Square would have stuck with Nintendo.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
yeah, but their msitake still was what motivated square's move. you remember they had that concept video of the ffVI guys, they would have stuck with nintendo if yamauchi didnt hate those dang kids on his lawn. (and he did it again in the gc era with his dislike of online gaming)
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I'm not so sure. I guess it depends on how and when it was all implemented. If Nintendo came out with a CD system at the same time or before the PS, then you're probably right. Developers would be more inclined to focus on the system that would get them the most sales, and that would be Nintendo, because it was the king. But going back to my point, I think if they were going to stick with CD's at that point, they would have stuck with their partner and the work that had already been done.|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Actually, it doesn't matter how they did it, a CD-based console for Nintendo would have killed Sony's plans, even if the betrayal still took place. Square-Enix only ditched Nintendo because they stuck with cartridges (SE has no concept of loyalty, as they demonstrated to both Nintendo and, unsurpringly to anyone but Sony fanboys, Sony, so what Nintendo did to Sony probably didn't bother Squaresoft in the least).
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If the PS came out and was the big success that it was, and then Nintendo went to CD to compete with PS2, it might not be so simple. I don't think Square Enix is the be all, end all of the story and I think at that time there would be a split again among development dollars and jockeying for exclusive titles and so on. If Microsoft also got into the mix in this hypothetical version of history as it did in our real history, then who knows what would have happened?
So I think my opinion is that there is some validity to his points about how Sony got its foot in the door, but once that foot was in and the Playstation got established, I don't think their successes after that point can all be credited back to the failure of their competition.
In fact I think it is the foresight that Sony had in regards to emerging and far-reaching technologies that made them successful. CD's, DVD's, high storage capacities, USB, Blu-Ray (maybe a gamble backing their own horse but one that paid off), and now 3D. Bob mentions these but rather than giving Sony credit for being insightful, he says it was dumb luck.
Sure I think there was some luck involved, and some serendipitous timing, and some help from missteps on the part of Nintendo, but I think Sony also, by the way, built three really kick *** gaming consoles that deserve some freakin' credit. And I don't think the fact that they have some stiff competition now means they are going to fail, or that there really is any substantial indication right now to suggest that they are failing.
And wow, I totally didn't set out to lay out my own theory on all this. But there it is.
Disclaimer, btw, I'm not really a fanboy of any variety. I have all three current gen consoles and a gaming PC and I loves them all, like my childrens.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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Except UMDs failed spectacularly, Blu-Ray inflated the system's price to the point of causing a media debacle that utterly destroyed their early sales, and their implementation of 3D is not only 100% terrible (requiring a $5000 specially-designed TV, with glasses costing about $150 per pair, and we haven't even gotten into the cost of the games), but Nintendo beat them to it with superior technology* (the 3DS needs no glasses, and the 3D is apparently pretty good).|
Originally Posted by Quasadu
I'm not so sure. I guess it depends on how and when it was all implemented. If Nintendo came out with a CD system at the same time or before the PS, then you're probably right. Developers would be more inclined to focus on the system that would get them the most sales, and that would be Nintendo, because it was the king. But going back to my point, I think if they were going to stick with CD's at that point, they would have stuck with their partner and the work that had already been done.
If the PS came out and was the big success that it was, and then Nintendo went to CD to compete with PS2, it might not be so simple. I don't think Square Enix is the be all, end all of the story and I think at that time there would be a split again among development dollars and jockeying for exclusive titles and so on. If Microsoft also got into the mix in this hypothetical version of history as it did in our real history, then who knows what would have happened? So I think my opinion is that there is some validity to his points about how Sony got its foot in the door, but once that foot was in and the Playstation got established, I don't think their successes after that point can all be credited back to the failure of their competition. In fact I think it is the foresight that Sony had in regards to emerging and far-reaching technologies that made them successful. CD's, DVD's, high storage capacities, USB, Blu-Ray (maybe a gamble backing their own horse but one that paid off), and now 3D. Bob mentions these but rather than giving Sony credit for being insightful, he says it was dumb luck. Sure I think there was some luck involved, and some serendipitous timing, and some help from missteps on the part of Nintendo, but I think Sony also, by the way, built three really kick *** gaming consoles that deserve some freakin' credit. And I don't think the fact that they have some stiff competition now means they are going to fail, or that there really is any substantial indication right now to suggest that they are failing. And wow, I totally didn't set out to lay out my own theory on all this. But there it is. Disclaimer, btw, I'm not really a fanboy of any variety. I have all three current gen consoles and a gaming PC and I loves them all, like my childrens. |
Also, the PS2 was one half riding its predecessor's reputation, and one half not getting any real competition. The Xbox did okay in the US and Europe, but Japan completely shunned it (and at the time, they were the bulk of gaming's money). The Gamecube suffered from all the damage caused by the last two Nintendo consoles. In reality, it was an exceptional console (easy to program for, capable of superior graphics in comparison with the PS2, etc.), but the first half of the console cycle was spent earning back the trust of the third-party developers. Sega's rampant mismanagement and the PS1's stellar reputation meant that the most vital Christmas season for the Dreamcast was dominated by PS2 sales, which marked the end for Sega. So in the end, the PS2 was free to do what it wanted. As Bob said, incorporating DVD technology was the one truly savvy thing they did that time around.
Also, the evidence of the PS3's failure is their consistent seat in last place of the current console cycle. For a while, their sales managed to be less than the PS2's.
*Oh, and actually, a certain specific game beat them to it, as well, by having a 3D edition, though I don't know how good the 3D is.
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A lot of people undersell the PSP. Spoony consistently calls it a piece of ****.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
my main complaint with bob is that i think he undersells the psp.
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eh, i dont care for it myself, but japanese sales charts dont tell a particularly nuanced story, its a beast, even when monster hunter games aren't launching. the go however..can we all stop for a moment and laugh at the psp go? its selling in the TRIPLE DIGITS ONLY in the country where psp actually sells well.
now lets be frank, japan carries less clout than before, but us sales charts are monthly, and europe is weird about their sales charts, so the only regular metric is japan.
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They were lucky. If Square didn't pick them, they wouldn't have won. If Square had picked Sega we'd be talking about the Dreamcast 2 now instead of the PS3.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Again that's not luck, it's called making the first good CD based console and using a big brand name like Sony to get lots of 3rd party support, something even SEGA had a hard time doing. Microsoft did the same thing to get the Xbox off the ground, and judging by how it was released it probably would have failed if not for the Microsoft name and the money funneled into exclusives like Halo.
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Actually, Sega was already on its last legs when the Dreamcast came out, and everyone could see it. SE would never have picked Sega under the conditions it was in. Given the circumstances, Sony was the only option. Lucky them.
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Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
They were lucky. If Square didn't pick them, they wouldn't have won. If Square had picked Sega we'd be talking about the Dreamcast 2 now instead of the PS3.
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[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
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I was saying if they had went to Sega when they made the Saturn, not the Dreamcast.
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Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Actually, Sega was already on its last legs when the Dreamcast came out, and everyone could see it. SE would never have picked Sega under the conditions it was in. Given the circumstances, Sony was the only option. Lucky them.
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Even so, Sega was really a mess back then, too. Really, they'd been royally ****ed since the 32x (some might even argue it was as far back as the SegaCD).
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Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
I was saying if they had went to Sega when they made the Saturn, not the Dreamcast.
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[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
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My point was prior to this gen. Basicly who ever Square supported was who was in the lead.
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Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Even so, Sega was really a mess back then, too. Really, they'd been royally ****ed since the 32x (some might even argue it was as far back as the SegaCD).
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But Sony was the only guys who weren't utterly incompetent/run by a mean old man at that time. So, in order to change SE's decision, you'd have to also alter the poor judgement of one of the other two companies.
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Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
My point was prior to this gen. Basicly who ever Square supported was who was in the lead.
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You guys are giving Square far too much credit. Konami and Capcom are just as big Japanese game companies that also chose Sony over Nintendo, but really it was the fact that we had the first stable CD console that shifted the PC market to consoles for the first time. A good example would be Legacy of Kain being released onto the PS and having it's sequel released directly to the PS as well.
As far as Nintendo, the gamecube should be taken as example that Nintendo had no idea how to handle a CD-based console from the get go. Sony however had been in the CD business for quite some time before they developed the Playstation and the money to mass-produce it, two things Sega lacked. You all seem to forget that Sony was a powerhouse company before even entering the game business.
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1. Once you get past all the comical vitriol, the Gamecube was actually a very good console. Again, it was very easy to develop games for, it had better graphics than the PS2 (compare the two version of Resident Evil 4 for a good example), the only thing it lacked was online play, which, at the time of the Gamecube's release, was not the gigantic phenimenon it is today. The only real problem the Gamecube had was the fact that Nintendo's reputation was in the toilet.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
You guys are giving Square far too much credit. Konami and Capcom are just as big Japanese game companies that also chose Sony over Nintendo, but really it was the fact that we had the first stable CD console that shifted the PC market to consoles for the first time. A good example would be Legacy of Kain being released onto the PS and having it's sequel released directly to the PS as well.
As far as Nintendo, the gamecube should be taken as example that Nintendo had no idea how to handle a CD-based console from the get go. Sony however had been in the CD business for quite some time before they developed the Playstation and the money to mass-produce it, two things Sega lacked. You all seem to forget that Sony was a powerhouse company before even entering the game business. |
2. Had Nintendo gone with its original plans and made a CD-based console, it would have curbstomped Sony, because they'd have gotten not only Final Fantasy, but most likely Metal Gear Solid and the various Capcom games (if you'll remember, all of those companies aleady had a strong relationship with Nintendo, the only thing that Sony had that drew away all the third-party companies was their CD format).
In an alternate universe, right now, people are remembering Nintendo's first CD-based console, released after the SNES, and Sony is only known for making shoddy home electronics.
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Gamecube actually did have online play. The problem is... the developers didn't use it. There were both a dial up and broadband internet adapters made for the system but PSO was the only game to use them.
Not only did Gamecube games usually look better then the PS2, they often had far better loading times. If you compared playing Gladius on the Gamecube to playing it on the PS2 (Which had load times in mid battle!). You'd probably be sorely tempted to take a sledgehammer to your PS2. PS2 rode on having backwards compatability, not being the better system.
Sony really did make the same mistakes Nintendo previously did. They let their success get to their head. They were making jerk moves and stupid mistakes. They actually blocked certain games from being released in the US for the PS2 on the grounds that "Americans don't like 2D games!". And let's not forget the infamous "The next generation doesn't start till we say it does!" which led to "Congratulations you just told a ton of developers who also work for you that their games aren't true next gen"
Someone post a link to his front page or whatever he has please.
Also the reason Sony succeeded was because Nintendo kept making games for babies when their original customers were growing up. Now they are somehow successful again by making games for babies and old people.
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http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/|
Originally Posted by Solos
Someone post a link to his front page or whatever he has please.
Also the reason Sony succeeded was because Nintendo kept making games for babies when their original customers were growing up. Now they are somehow successful again by making games for babies and old people. |
BTW LOL at anything that's not rated M being for babies. Heaven forbid an adult enjoy something that doesn't have blood gushing left and right.
I think the best comparison to what happened to Nintendo is what happened to WWF when WCW got strong. The only difference is that unlike WCW, Sony isn't completely retarded.
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http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-.../dp/B002BSA298|
Originally Posted by Samothrake
The price of Kinect looks to be $200. That gets you the camera and sports game.
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?
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Don't argue with Solos. It's what he wants. Just politely disregard everything he says and then make fun of him on Paragon Unleashed where he can't see it.
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Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/
BTW LOL at anything that's not rated M being for babies. Heaven forbid an adult enjoy something that doesn't have blood gushing left and right. |
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Could you explain this analogy for the non-manchildren?
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Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
I think the best comparison to what happened to Nintendo is what happened to WWF when WCW got strong. The only difference is that unlike WCW, Sony isn't completely retarded.
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"Also the reason Sony succeeded was because Nintendo kept making games for babies when their original customers were growing up. Now they are somehow successful again by making games for babies and old people."
and yet again we have the falacy that a game rated E for Everyone is a game made for babies. By being rated as a game for Everyone, the game has access to a much larger audience. It can comfortably be played by everyone in a household, many times at the same time, without someone finding something in the game objectionable.
A mature rated game does not mean it is better. It just means that it can include things that adults think the younger ones should not see.
To be honest, in my experience, those who only want to play Mature rated games and turn up their noses at a game with a Teen or Everyone rating are the least mature. When one actually matures broadens one's horizons, one can find fun in games no matter the rating.
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