Energy Aura Discrepancy
By
ClawsandEffect,
Posted on: 2010-08-21 17:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Brutes get:
More Resistance to Energy, Negative Energy and Toxic, despite Brutes and Stalkers sharing the Damage Resistance modifier, and Resistance to Lethal and Smashing, which Stalkers don't get at all.
A +Stealth/+Defense power that doesn't suppress defense at all and only suppresses stealth when clicking a glowie, compared to Hide which only gives half the defense (minus AoE defense) unless in Hidden state.
Larger Heal value from Energy Drain.
More +HP in Overload, on top of a higher HP cap than Stalkers who may not even get ANY +HP if they have a few Accolades.
Yes Stalkers get higher Defense, but Brutes get better everything else.
Edit: Though, either way neither AT really does omgamazing with the set.
The lower defense number is a BIG issue though. That translates into a huge hit for survivability being that large a difference.
Those are the biggest difference in powers other than lack of smash and lethal res stalkers have, which is expected since they're supposed to be squishy.
Also, Stalkers benefit far more from slotting those powers because they are a higher basic value. Brutes just can't catch up there and fall farther behind the more it is slotted.
I really think this was a mistake where Brutes got the wrong versions of Kinetic Shield and Power Shield.
Swapping those between the ATs would solve the problem and make more sense.
Edit:
Energy Aura could really use a buff, at least for starting out if not overall.
Are you seriously nerfherding for Stalkers? do you not have a mother?
I'm actually looking for a reason why Brutes have lesser defense for Energy Aura. Essentially, I'm looking for a buff for those 2 main Energy Aura toggles for Brutes up to the level of the toggles the Stalker gets, at least.
I just suggested that an explanation for the discrepancy was a mistaken swap of toggles between the two ATs. Brutes are supposed to be tougher, and that would really explain why brutes with Energy Aura are so very squishy before level 24 or so.
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If it's a difference between the two toggles, it's due to the actual base powers being different rather than them being the same power and the AT mods being accidentally swapped: the game applies the AT mods, not the database, so it's not a question of the power values being swapped on accident.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I just suggested that an explanation for the discrepancy was a mistaken swap of toggles between the two ATs.
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I think you're also misreading what the actual effects of the differences between the two ATs are. Brutes get more resistance (thanks to Dampening Field) while Stalkers get more defense (thanks to the shields having Energy Cloak's defense folded into them combined with Hide). The end combination is that the two actually have almost identical survivability. The survivability is still lower than it should be when compared to other sets, but there isn't any particular discrepancy between the sets for the two ATs.
Yet, every other power set has the Brute having equal or greater defense and resist buffs for the exact same powers. The differences lay in the powers unique to differing archetypes.
I wouldn't mind the Stalker having more defense because of Hide or soem other power that only the Stalker gets, but when they have identical powers the powers should be identical or modified based on the intended role of the AT.
No matter what, Kinetic Shield and Power Shield should give the same or higher defense to Brutes compared to what they do for Stalkers.
Brutes are supposed to have higher defenses(resistance and defense) being the de facto villain tank, until Going Rogue hit. Stalkers should not have higher values int he exact same powers. That is not how the archetype attribute modifiers work.
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Actually, Brutes and Stalkers have the exact same AT mods. The only thing that makes Brutes hardier is the fact that they have more hp and higher resistance and hp caps. Other than that, Brutes and Stalkers (and Scrappers) should have virtually identical survivability.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Brutes are supposed to have higher defenses(resistance and defense) being the de facto villain tank, until Going Rogue hit. Stalkers should not have higher values int he exact same powers. That is not how the archetype attribute modifiers work.
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The problem you're having is realizing that there is a reason that Stalkers got higher values in those powers in question. Stalkers don't get Energy Cloak, with it's higher +def values (compared to Hide). Because of that, in order to achieve a similar level of survivability, they needed to have that lower def factored into their existing shields. It's not an issue of AT mods. It's an issue of the powers simply being different because the powersets themselves are different and some things have to be changed to create equivalent performance. It's for this exact same reason that Stalker Evasion provides 21.375% +def(AoE) while the Brute version provides only 13.875%: Stalkers lose Lucky for Hide, so, in order to preserve their existing survivability, they need to have more +def from an existing source.
Adding up all the defense powers in each set (don't forget hide and energy cloak), the total unenhanced defense numbers are:
Stalker (hide suppressed):
18.375% S/L/F/C, 21.05% E, 14.625% N
Brute:
16.5% S/L, 18.75% F/C, 20.625% E, 14.25% N
Stalkers have 1.875% more S/L def, 0.375% less F/C def, 0.425% more E def, and 0.375% more N def. Only the S/L number is big enough to make any real difference, and brutes do get a S/L resist passive that stalkers don't. Working the numbers, both enhanced and unenhanced brutes have about as much S/L mitigation as stalkers do. Now, stalkers do get more out of that extra 1.875% S/L def as they approach the softcap, but in general the game isn't balanced around IOs.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
The caps don't really matter unless you're close to them. A Brute and a Stalker both below the Stalker caps should be equivalent if everything but the caps is the same.
Higher health doesn't really matter when that little extra maybe 6% only slows your defeat by 6% at most, which isn't realistically that much.
The true difference in survivability comes when close to the caps and/or from the powers themselves.
Stalkers clearly have better versions of 2 essential powers than Brutes get. Those end up being a huge survivability difference given how the mechanics work.
If they have the same archetype modifiers then identical powers should provide identical buffs, but these don't.
That makes Brutes squishier than they should be when compared to Stalkers usign the same powers.
Energy Aura for all Ats needs a buff, but it should also be equivalent between Brutes and Stalekrs or Brutes should have higher values because of the nature of the AT.
Anyway, this was all started because Energy Aura feels too squishy on a Brute and detailed power info seems to provide a logical possible reason why.
I believe this issue should be fixed and it would go a little way to making Energy Aura feel as it should.
Well, it's still a noticeable difference that shouldn't be there or should favor the Brute over the Stalker clearly.
As an aside, the game may not be balanced around IOs, but Praetoria sure feels like it is. That place is pretty hard to solo even a willpower scrapper without having the maximum level IOs in every slot.
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Common IO's?|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Well, it's still a noticeable difference that shouldn't be there or should favor the Brute over the Stalker clearly.
As an aside, the game may not be balanced around IOs, but Praetoria sure feels like it is. That place is pretty hard to solo even a willpower scrapper without having the maximum level IOs in every slot. |
If so, then you're not really using anything outside the realm of 'balance for' until you get to the level 45 or 50. Level 15 IOs are basically +3 DOs. Level 20 IOs are basically -2 SOs.
Now, if you are using SETS, and actually getting bonuses from them, then you are getting into things the game isn't balanced around.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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I always thought that Stalkers had higher defense than Scrappers/Brutes for their respective sets when you factor in suppressed Hide...it'd only be a measily 1.8% but it was there.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I believe this issue should be fixed and it would go a little way to making Energy Aura feel as it should.
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As for the believed discrepancy, it's as explained: Brutes get the +def shields and Energy Cloak which provides a constant amount of +def (about as much as Weave I think).
Stalkers get the +def shields and Hide which does not provide a constant amount of +def. Each set for Stalkers/Brutes/Scrappers are suppose to provide the same amount of mitigation with the difference being the caps and HP.
Brutes are not entitled to more defense. It isn't in their inherent to get more mitigation. Stalkers *are* entitled to more defense because it's in every one of their tier 1 powers which is tied to their inherent.
Yep. Stalker Kinetic Shield provides the same S/L defence as Brute Kinetic Shield + Energy Cloak.
Since Stalkers don't get Energy Cloak, they get the +3.75% defence from it rolled into their main defence shields instead.
Stalkers do further benefit from the unsuppressed Defence in Hide.
Its similar to how Stalkers get higher values for Evasion (AoE toggle) in Super Reflexes. They don't get Lucky (AoE pasive), so the AoE defence from their toggle is boosted.
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Uh, no. No stalker will EVER out-tank a brute using the same set. Brutes get more resistance, and they have WAY higher HP (Brute cap is TWICE what the stalker cap is) |
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
That makes me think there is a big mistake with Energy Aura. Brutes are supposed to be the toughest AT on villain-side, but Stalkers have higher defenses in Energy Aura!? Is this a bug or intentional or what? What is the point of taking the most defensible class if the weaker class can out-tank it? The only thing a Brute has over a Stalker is a bit more actual damage resistance in the powers, but that can't make up for the rather large discrepancy in defense strength between the two. Brutes are always supposed to be more survivable than stalkers, not the other way around. |
If a brute takes 2 hits of 800 each, they will be at about half health. A stalker taking those same two hits is DEAD. That is assuming both are at their respective caps.
Brutes get more resistance out of their toggles than stalkers do, that means the hits that do get through are going to hurt less.
What you're saying doesn't seem very fair. Stalkers already take more damage per hit, and have much fewer HP to soak those hits, and their heal isn't as good (because it is based on your base HP max)....and you're saying that they should be hit more often too?!
I'd say with all the other advantages brutes get in this case, the stalkers kinda deserve the higher defense. Unless of course you're campaigning for stalkers to be made completely useless, instead of the mostly useless they are currently.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That's not what I read.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Are you seriously nerfherding for Stalkers? do you not have a mother?
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I read 'Buff Energy Aura for Brutes.'
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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The developers do not look at the powers alone and neither should you. Brutes don't get hide at all. Stalkers don't get energy cloak at all. Look at the set on the whole, as done for you by both Umbral and Muon:|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Stalkers clearly have better versions of 2 essential powers than Brutes get. Those end up being a huge survivability difference given how the mechanics work.
If they have the same archetype modifiers then identical powers should provide identical buffs, but these don't. That makes Brutes squishier than they should be when compared to Stalkers usign the same powers. |
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Adding up all the defense powers in each set (don't forget hide and energy cloak), the total unenhanced defense numbers are: Stalker (hide suppressed): 18.375% S/L/F/C, 21.05% E, 14.625% N Brute: 16.5% S/L, 18.75% F/C, 20.625% E, 14.25% N Stalkers have 1.875% more S/L def, 0.375% less F/C def, 0.425% more E def, and 0.375% more N def. Only the S/L number is big enough to make any real difference, AND BRUTES DO GET A S/L RESIST PASSIVE THAT STALKERS DON'T. Working the numbers, both enhanced and unenhanced brutes have about as much S/L mitigation as stalkers do. |
And from Umbral:
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| Actually, Brutes and Stalkers have the exact same AT mods. The only thing that makes Brutes hardier is the fact that they have more hp and higher resistance and hp caps. Other than that, Brutes and Stalkers (and Scrappers) should have virtually identical survivability. |
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Uh, no. No stalker will EVER out-tank a brute using the same set. Brutes get more resistance, and they have WAY higher HP (Brute cap is TWICE what the stalker cap is) If a brute takes 2 hits of 800 each, they will be at about half health. A stalker taking those same two hits is DEAD. That is assuming both are at their respective caps. Brutes get more resistance out of their toggles than stalkers do, that means the hits that do get through are going to hurt less. |
Now, your real issue, and it is legitimate and everyone agrees, is that BOTH brute /ea and stalker /ea need a buff. After that buff the stalker /ea will probably still have a bit higher defense in the two powers BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY FIT INTO THE SET AS A WHOLE. Re-read Muon's post two more times if you still don't get it.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Just echoing statements here...
EA brutes have a few more tools in their armor working for them than stalkers do on top of just about double the HP.
Power Dampening (if i'm remembering the power name correctly) reduces smashing and lethal damage being applied to the brute. A stalker on the other hand doesn't have that...so if he gets hit...he gets hit full bore. Counter to this, slightly higher defense bonus.
Brutes have energy cloak. A few more added points of defense stuff has gotta get thru before they can bop Brutey Mc Bruteypants upside the head. Stalkers...no havey energy cloak...add a couple MORE defense points somewhere to compensate. Yes, Hide does have some +def, but it's not a HUGE amount, save for the AoE defense, which is fairly respectable, but only while actively hidden and gets hammered when not.
So..while at first glance things may seem a little off-kilter...or off-balanced...when you actually look at the differences in the set as a whole, you'll find that they're simply modified to make up for differences between the 2 AT's
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem you're having is realizing that there is a reason that Stalkers got higher values in those powers in question. Stalkers don't get Energy Cloak, with it's higher +def values (compared to Hide). Because of that, in order to achieve a similar level of survivability, they needed to have that lower def factored into their existing shields.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
The caps don't really matter unless you're close to them. A Brute and a Stalker both below the Stalker caps should be equivalent if everything but the caps is the same.
Higher health doesn't really matter when that little extra maybe 6% only slows your defeat by 6% at most, which isn't realistically that much. The true difference in survivability comes when close to the caps and/or from the powers themselves. Stalkers clearly have better versions of 2 essential powers than Brutes get. Those end up being a huge survivability difference given how the mechanics work. |
Any attempt at arguing further is just an attempt to pump up your preferred AT. In this case, Brutes don't need anyone cheerleading for them; they're doing fine.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Well, you kind of forgot Repulse (perfectly reasonable mistake). So Stalkers might be shy some resistance but it gets soft control via KB which can be a big help if used right.|
Originally Posted by RaikenX
Power Dampening (if i'm remembering the power name correctly) reduces smashing and lethal damage being applied to the brute. A stalker on the other hand doesn't have that...so if he gets hit...he gets hit full bore. Counter to this, slightly higher defense bonus.
Brutes have energy cloak. A few more added points of defense stuff has gotta get thru before they can bop Brutey Mc Bruteypants upside the head. Stalkers...no havey energy cloak...add a couple MORE defense points somewhere to compensate. Yes, Hide does have some +def, but it's not a HUGE amount, save for the AoE defense, which is fairly respectable, but only while actively hidden and gets hammered when not. |
Actually, with the new changes to mez toggles, Repulse sounds like a totally fun power! Think about it: you turn on Repulse, then you charge up your AS or high powered ST attack then queue that baby up and *BLAM*. It'd almost make it seem like your attack is just that dang good
I haven't really got any type of build for my EM/EA stalker who is sitting at lvl 34 so I'm definitely thinking of working that power in if only for L0Lz
Hmm, what about Whirlwind?... >_>
I was looking at Brutes and Stalkers, as the only two ATs with Energy Aura sadly, in the character creator today.
I noticed that Stalkers clearly have higher defense numbers for the powers they share, not even including the Stalker only buffs.
I thought this was an error on my part so I looked again and confirmed it. I wondered if the same was true of the other power sets as well. I checked most of the ones they shared, including super reflexes, dark armor and willpower, but all the other sets had almost exactly the same numbers between the Stalker and Brute.
That makes me think there is a big mistake with Energy Aura. Brutes are supposed to be the toughest AT on villain-side, but Stalkers have higher defenses in Energy Aura!?
Is this a bug or intentional or what?
What is the point of taking the most defensible class if the weaker class can out-tank it?
The only thing a Brute has over a Stalker is a bit more actual damage resistance in the powers, but that can't make up for the rather large discrepancy in defense strength between the two.
Brutes are always supposed to be more survivable than stalkers, not the other way around.
If you don't believe me about the numbers, go see for yourself.