Kinetic Melee: judged and found wanting (Willpower)

Just thought of a "well that's damn counter-intuitive" way to make Repulsing Torrent useful to a Tanker as an alpha strike ... and it involves Stealth, either via Concealment Pool, teammate power or Stealth IO.

Say wha???

You start out stealthed.
You pick your target out of the pile you're facing ... preferrably one towards the back, no further away than about 30ft from the nearest enemy to your position.
Using stealth, you find the optimum position to begin your attack run, and cue Repulsing Torrent while beyond the range of the cone.
You then charge forward, either under keyboard control or by use of Follow, into the pile.
When you reach Cone Radius range from your $Target, you'll automagically unleash Repulsing Torrent, and then continue charging forward into the pre-herded pile ... who then fuel RttC.

The stealth aspect is simply to have better freedom of movement to find the optimal charge angle on the witless NPCs, and so as to not lose the element of surprise too soon before unleashing Repulsing Torrent.

Very much an alpha strike sort of scenario, but it does illustrate how Repulsing Torrent could be useful to a Tanker as an opening attack. On indoor maps with plenty of hallway corners, Repulsing Torrent could prove to be quite useful for establishing initial aggro while mitigating enemy alpha strikes through mass knockback (into walls and corners). Slot Repulsing Torrent with Force Feedback for extreme crowd control purposes (and to defeat KB Protections) and watch your Siphon Power start coming into play a lot more often! Getting Siphon Power recharge in under 50 seconds is quite doable ... even on a build without Hasten! Heck, I'm looking at being able to have Siphon Power recharge in under 40 seconds (according to Mids') ... without Hasten ... by using Force Feedback in Repulsing Torrent as a "turbocharger" for Siphon Power.

Damn ... now I think I want to fit Repulsing Torrent 6 slotted for Force Feedback for indoor alpha strikes into my own build (after taking it out earlier)!



Now check out this action combo for using Repulsing Torrent 6 slotted for Force Feedback on a Willpower Tanker.

Select target nearest.
Follow.
Shortly before arriving in melee range, click Repulsing Torrent.
Immediately cue Siphon Power so that it activates while under Grant Power Force Feedback, hastening recharge of Siphon Power by +100%.
While nearest target (and friends) friends are still airborne, continue to Follow while animating Siphon Power.
Immediately cue Quick Strike while Siphon Power is animating and continuing to Follow.
Arrive in melee range at approximately the same time as Siphon Power completes animating, causing Quick Strike to animate.
Quick Strike will apply a Resistance Debuff (bruising) and a Damage Debuff (base plus Siphon Power) and a Damage Buff to self. First stacking of Siphon Power.
Rise to the Challenge begins getting fueled.
Initiate normal attack chain under Siphon Power, rapidly stacking Siphon Power to the detriment of initial target(s) and misery of subsequent targets after first is defeated.

Repeat for all alpha strikes on new piles of mobs whenever possible and/or practical in the presence of nearby walls and corners. Use Knockback Cone for (pre)positioning of mob piles to fuel Rise to the Challenge. Use "Hop and Pop" with Repulsing Torrent to gain "breathing room" while getting dogpiled on and to accelerate powers used following Repulsing Torrent (assuming Force Feedback procs, which it "should" when used against large piles of mobs).

I think it's safe to say that no other Tanker Secondary offers these sorts of 1-2-3 combos, except for Dual Blades ... and even then, Dual Blades doesn't have the "reach" that Kinetic Melee does in this department. This makes possible new "not just melee" tactics and engagement strategies ... opening up possibilities that have not yet been seen before for Tanker Alpha Strikes short of Shield Charge (which is a Primary power, not a Secondary power).



powexecname Hover

/em Lotus

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

For that matter, the idea that a tanker should control every mob is probably more about bragging than about actual utility. Most characters capable of pulling mobs off a Willpower tanker can handle the aggro. There's only a few situations in the game, almost all on the Statesman TF, and now the Lord Recluse SF, where a tanker needs to worry about holding the aggro of several AV class enemies simultaneously, and where your aura makes a large difference. There, you might worry about your aggro. For ordinary mobs, not quite as much.

All I'm saying is that there are other sets that will help the WP tanker who wants to do this more than Kinetic Melee helps.

Even then, I don't really see how KM makes for issues keeping mobs in range of RTTC (or any more than other attack sets). KD a mob, and they're not going anywhere. Stun is the only objection I can think of, and that's mostly because of most people believing that mobs stagger all over the place at sprint speeds (or faster) like they used to. Usually they' stagger within melee range, and if they happen to move out of it, you should be able to move just fine.

I have a lot of characters with Stun in their attacks, and it's not an issue like it used to be at all. Repulsing Torrent is the only real issue, but its numbers are so bad at this point most should avoid it anyway.

Not liking a set I can get for its looks or feel. But this... confuses me. You acknowledge that the numbers for the damage will say otherwise (unless you're trying to say the number crunchers make stuff up for some reason... and you don't seem like someone that would argue that), but you still feel like it's not good? Even though it works by the numbers and isn't a bad set?

Or do you just not like sets that are more ST focused? Again, I can certainly understand that. Just not an argument that the animations take too long or its damage is meh (though it is a weaker AOE set for sure, it's still better than EM in that regard).

YES.

And they don't just check once to hit all. They check individually per target. That means if you have 5 targets inside the Gauntlet Radius, you have 5 chances (once per target) to Proc a Perfect Zinger.

In Kinetic Melee, Repulsing Torrent and Burst are the only powers with a higher Max Targets than 5 for Gauntlet (standard for single targets and Taunt). Both Repulsing Torrent and Burst have 10 Max Targets, meaning they can gather up aggro more widely than your other attacks can using Gauntlet ... and of those two, only Repulsing Torrent extends beyond melee range. Concentrated Burst also extends beyond melee range, but its Gauntlet is still 5 Max Targets.

My point being that you can, with Kinetic Melee, as a Tanker, build to use Repulsing Torrent via Gauntlet to "taunt" one large group of mobs ... *and* use Concentrated Burst via Gauntlet on a second set of mobs ... *and* use Taunt too on yet a third set of mobs ... and be able to make them ALL COME TO YOU. That's (up to) 10+5+5 mobs all taunted onto you and "reluctant" to seek out squishier targets than yourself. If the positioning is right, you can really build a dogpile on yourself ... and tell the Blasters/Corrupters/Kheldians/Soldiers ... "Weapons Free. Fire at Will."

The major point here is that Kinetic Melee has the potential via Gauntlet, through its ranged attacks, to act as a really good aggro magnet. Instead of it being the Primary acting as the aggro magnet (see: Ice Armor), it is instead the Secondary which is the main aggro magnet in the combination of Willpower and Kinetic Melee on a Tanker (and I suppose also on a Brute). You just have to build and slot with that purpose in mind.

It's counter-intuitive ... but I'm convinced it'll work out better than Heraclea is anticipating.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Uhm... My understanding of gauntlet is that procs will NOT fire off the gauntlet effect. You use a single target attack and the proc will only check against the single target. I'll look around and see if I can find a definitive answer on this just to make sure.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

For what it's worth, I'm just discussing KM (though I think it probably would sync up decently with most sets pretty well). I'm also trying to say if you know the numbers add up... you should try to let that affect your perception, right? Hate to see you not liking a set that you think doesn't do good damage when the numbers say otherwise.

But hey, I can understand not liking a set on a feeling. I like Warmace more than Battle Axe even though they're not very different, for instance. And though I do like Dual Blades, I enjoy Fire Melee, War Mace, and SS more, even though it balances out by the numbers.

I also agree with the Gauntlet stuff... think the proc just works on what the attack is hitting, not Gauntlet itself. From what I remember, anyway.

I figured as much, which is why I mentioned that I had made a KM/WP scrapper and had also created a SD/KM Tank. It's not that the set doesn't work, it's more the pairing of WP and KM on a tank that didn't work for me. I still want to see if it works better as a KM/WP which is why I'm giving that a shot.

Unfortunately I'm not the only one who has a perception, right or wrong, that KM is a little on the lighter side when it comes to damage. Even my wife, who isn't into game number crunching by any means, feels that way about her KM scrapper. I'm happy to try it out with other combinations to find something that works for me. We'll see how it goes with those two toons.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

This is true when you're talking about melee damage or PBAoE sets (or any damage set, really). Procs from damage and control (stun, hold, immobilize, etc.) sets will only proc on the target(s) that you hit. This part, is true.

Gauntlet however is defined as an Area Effect Taunt. As such, any taunt set enhancements you slot will enhance the Gauntlet Taunt ... which is an AoE on single target powers. Gauntlet is (effectively) a Taunt "carrier" if you will ... and Perfect Zinger is a taunt set IO and has a chance to proc against every target affected by a taunt effect ... which Gauntlet, by definition, actually is. Gauntlet is the reason why ALL Tanker secondary attacks ... even the single target ones ... have a radius(!) .. and have a Max Targets of greater than 1(!) which is usually set to 5 for single target attacks (go figure).

For Tankers, Perfect Zinger "rides" the Gauntlet AoE Taunt of the attack in question ... and has a chance to Proc on every target within that radius up to the Max Targets limit as defined for the attack power in question. Perfect Zinger can do this because it is a Taunt IO.

No need to take my word for it ... have a look at City of Data for Tankers. Pick any secondary power that is a single target melee attack and take note of the specified radius and max targets for the power. You'll quickly notice a pattern where the radius is not zero, and the max targets is greater than one ... on single target attacks.

Surprise ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Stealth on a tanker is a non issue the second you register a aoe or taunt.
KB is much maligned not because it is inherently evil but because it is so often used improperly.
If you can properly gauge the timing of your team there should be no issue with popping a ranged aoe from stealth for an alpha.
In fact I invariably fire a taunt into the front of a pack as I bunny hop into the back in order to get the alpha and turn the spawn's aoes and cones away from my teamates.
If I opened with the cone rather than the taunt I would gain more mitigation for the team as a whole and myself as well. It is more than likely with a bit of practice that the net result would be a TIGHTER pack as the front edge would be knocked into the rear guard of the same spawn. This would be even more effective is there was a wall or corner behind them.

Yeah, because you're the person everyone should listen to regarding this game. (lol)

It's because the mag from the knockdown proc will stack with the mag from the built-in knockdown, turning it into knockback. Same thing happens if you slot, say, the Ragnarok proc into something like Freezing Rain or Fissure.

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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Debuffs do affect aggro. I can't recall the formula (really should save it somewhere), but I'm sure Aett or one of the other more knowledgeable types around here can fill it in for us. So, I don't remember how much it helps, but it does help on top of damage, etc.

Huh, interesting about the ranges. I think many attacks do have different gauntlet radii (think usually harder hitting attacks are bigger), and that it might be helpful if you're really worried about aggro. Though thinking about what next attack to use can be issue enough if you're just attacking around, trying to defeat something, or maintain aggro. Not sure I want to get gauntlet auras into the mix.

The highly simplified equation can be found either on ParagonWiki:

Or City of Data (Digest):

I say highly simplified because the game doesn't use a straight up formula like that - it's a long, complicated piece of code that does the computation.

I haven't played the set, but I'd strongly suspect KM becomes one of the aggro kings. Damage (and by the same rationale, resistance) debuffs are 8 different debuffs at the same time, after all. (Smash, Lethal, Energy...)

I suspect it's the real reason why AAO is such an obscenely strong taunt aura.

I was going to say that an advantage KM has over most other tanker options (Stone and SS being the exceptions) when it comes to supplementing Willpower's weaker RTTC taunt aura is Focused Burst. Its a ranged single target attack, but because it has gauntlet it has an AoE taunt around its target. So in effect KM has a ranged attack that doubles as a ranged taunt. That's a useful for aggro control in that it will likely knock one target down and draw the attention of surrounding targets significantly out of melee range. You could, of course, do this with taunt itself but this gives you essentially two ranged taunts and one of them deals damage.

RT is also ranged, but its iffy as to whether the knockback acts counterproductive to the taunt generated. It depends a bit on the AI settings of the critters being hit for one thing.

Ironically, of the five grades given to Kinetic Melee in that guide, none of them seem to apply specifically to aggro generation. Focused Burst is not an AoE, although in terms of aggro generation its actually a ranged AoE. I certainly wouldn't give it a C-. Relative to the other scores there, I think KM deserves at least a B- if not a B.

My thought is that Repulsing Torrent is an "excellent" opening attack to pre-herd and draw aggro while charging into position. In that respect, Repulsing Torrent in many ways being "misunderstood" by the Tanker community, because it is best employed as a "soften them up" attack BEFORE battle is joined ... rather than something to round out an attack chain and be used every time it has recharged regardless of location or circumstances. My opinion is that Repulsing Torrent is a very situational power, for a Tanker, but it's a situation that happens a lot ... namely, being the first to draw aggro and wanting to clump up targets into a pile that you can then jump into (and fuel RttC with).

Furthermore, Repulsing Torrent has Max Targets 10, rather than just 5 for all the single target attacks, and thus is instantly a superior option for grabbing aggro as an opening gambit when diving into a fresh pile of (unaggroed) mobs. Even Taunt is limited to a Max Targets 5, so this is not a negligible point.

Repulsing Torrent, more than any other power in KM is a relative position(s) dependent power ... meaning there are going to be places and positions where it will be tactically beneficial ... and other places, positions and situations where it won't. That means that in order to employ it most effectively requires PLAYER SKILL and SITUATIONAL AWARENESS ... the two things which are hardest to quantify in spreadsheet analysis when doing by-the-numbers comparisons absent in-game situations. For these reasons, I really feel that Repulsing Torrent is sadly unappreciated and misunderstood by Tankers.

It's HOW and WHEN to use it that are the challenges with Repulsing Torrent ... not IF and how quickly you can chain it ... which is not the usual way that people think about powers. The power is more Tactical in nature, in a way that does not yield itself to "obvious" analysis. Heck, even something as simple as "Hop and Pop" seems to go beyond most people's analytical thinking for how to employ this power.

Arcanaville has spoken.
Make it so.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Playstyle no doubt makes a difference. When tanking for a large team, I tend not to worry about my own damage output, to the extent of turning off the autocycle for Rage on Super Strength characters. I instead tend to focus almost exclusively on keeping spawns tight, whether I am on a Willpower or another tanker, for the benefit of the other damage dealers. Repulsing Torrent is probably something I would never even consider taking on any tanker on live. It's just counterproductive to what I am doing.

The debuff issue may help. I tend to think that Dark Armor is more effective at aggro than its actual numbers would suggest; then again, it has a lot of debuff in it. Kinetic Melee and Ice Melee are the other two powersets that feature debuff; and almost all of the Lethal damage sets have some measure of defense debuff.

I'm highlighting this only to point out that -damage is more beneficial to defense sets than it is to resistance sets. Once a defense set has reached its soft cap, there is very little that can be done to reduce damage any further. One common way to increase survivability is to add a healing power, most notably siphon life. The other, and perhaps more reliable way, would be to layer on -damage so that the few hits that get through will be reduced.

As you know, mathematics is witchcraft, and the less you know of its baleful dark mysteries, the better a person you are.

Still, my understanding is that once a resistance set gets above 50% resistance, the curve starts swinging in its favor the same way that defense sets achieve exponential gains by approaching the soft cap. When you are at 50% resistance, 100 points of the resisted damage type turns into 50. Add another 5% to that, and you take 45 points of damage --- which equals a 10% reduction in damage taken. It would seem to me that for high resistance based builds, damage debuffs would be fairly powerful.

Let me put it this way. When you level from level 40 to level 41 and the critters start doing more damage, does that hurt defense sets more or resistance sets more? When you exemplar down from 41 to 40 and the critters start doing less damage, does that help defense sets more or resistance sets more?

Damage debuffs don't stack with resistance or defense. They just make the attacker weaker. They shouldn't favor one type of mitigation set over the other, at least not to a first order approximation (being less predictable, defense sets can suffer from a higher vulnerability to burst damage than resistance sets under certain circumstances, but that's not the effect most people are talking about when they refer to -DMG helping one kind of thing over another: in that sense -DMG helps regeneration sets even more).

The math you're referring to above is what happens when you stack 5% resistance onto a resistance or defense set, and this does help resistance sets more than defense sets. But damage debuffs don't do that. They just make the incoming attacks equally weaker for everyone. Unless you want to talk about corner cases like very specific alpha strike conditions, -DMG should have about the same net benefit for everyone. They'll help defense sets and resistance sets equally.

And they will even help defense sets at the soft cap and resistance sets at the resistance cap equally: incoming damage will still go down, because the attacker will still be weaker before those mitigations are applied.

Unlike +Defense and -ToHit, +Resistance and -Damage do not stack linearly. As far as the game is concerned, +Defense and -ToHit are exactly the same. The same cannot be said for +Resistance and -Damage. The game calculates the damage to be done, then reduces it by resistance.

In other words, instead of this (if it worked like +Def / -ToHit):
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - Resistance - DamageDebuff)

It does this:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)

So, suppose a character has 0% res and a 25% damage debuff is hit by a 200 damage attack:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)
DamageTaken = 200 * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0) = 150
That's a 25% reduction from what they'd take before the debuff (200 dmg)

Now suppose a character has 50% res and a 25% damage debuff is hit by a 200 damage attack:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)
DamageTaken = 200 * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.5) = 75
Again, that's a 25% reduction from what they'd before the debuff (100 dmg).

Now suppose a character has 90% res and a 25% damage debuff is hit by a 200 damage attack:
DamageTaken = Damage * (1 - DamageDebuff) * (1 - Resistance)
DamageTaken = 200 * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.9) = 15
Again, that's a 25% reduction from what they'd before the debuff (20 dmg).


Okay, another example comparing the benefits of -Damage for both a def and res based sets:

Character A - 25% def, 0% res
Character B - 0% def, 50% res

Attackers - 100 attacks for 200 damage

Scenario 1 - No damage debuffs
Character A: hit 25 times for 200 damage.
Total - 5000 damage

Character B: hit 50 times for 100 damage.
Total - 5000 damage

Scenario 2 - 25% damage debuff
Character A: hit 25 times for 150 damage.
Total - 3750 damage

Character B: hit 50 times for 75 damage.
Total - 3750 damage

So, on average, both sets will get the same benefit from the damage debuffs.