How could Tankers be buffed in a meaningful way?
Agreed that no AT is necessary, but would add that the opportunity cost of choosing one AT over another can diminish a team. For instance, eight blasters can DPS their way through almost everything. Seven blasters and one tank can do so faster, more easily, and more safely. The aggro management and tightly packed groups let any team do whatever they do more efficiently and more safely.
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I have three main characters. A tank, a warshade, and a bots/traps mastermind. All are self sufficient. All are able to solo an entire TF minus the AVs (Well, the mastermind could if I tried hard enough).
Only the tank can actually carry a struggling team.
I've said it before. I enjoy my tank most because he makes everyone else on the team feel awesome.
Unfortunately, on support heavy teams, no one is more boring or useless than my tank.
Where to now?
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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The tank forum really needs to stop crying over the aggro cap. You don't go to the Blaster forum and see them crying that they can't do their job by not hitting over 16 targets with an AOE or the controller forum saying they can't do their job if they can't control over 16 targets. It's only the tanker forum.
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Unfortunately, on support heavy teams, no one is more boring or useless than my tank.
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I think they're reaching desperately. There's something "wrong" with the Tanker AT. Nobody can agree on what that is or what the solution could be.
I really think the problem is overspecialization in the AT. Aggro management in itself is a way too limited task to build an entire AT around. Also, in my opinion, it's very simplistic. Tankers do the job well, as well as any AT should ever be able to handle a job itself, but that doesn't make the job always fun or interesting.
@Dechs
Not just support heavy teams decrease the Tanker's relevance; now with the presence of Brutes, Mastermind pets, these ATs take some of the aggo heat, plus they also bring other things to the table that the Tanker does not.
If Tankers are already overspecialized, improving their aggro-handling side is clearly not the solution. This is why I balk at raising the aggro cap. The only purpose that would have is to better allow herding for farming purposes. I do not know if that's the OP's intent, but that is the likely result.
Now in my opinion, the melee ATs each do two things to different flavours. They've got an attack powerset and they've got a defense powerset. If improving Tankers defensively doesn't help them and improving their aggro handling capabilities just furthers their overspecialization, the remaining option is to improve their offensive capabilities.
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I'm all for that.
The devastating and irresistibly powerful punch of a tank is something I wish Tankers had. . |
Scrappers are tough, like a modern battle tank, but not invincibly tough -- and neither is a modern battle tank. And Scappers pack a punch.
Modern battle tanks are not expected to repel all attacks with their armor and they are not used that way.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Frankly I wouldn't touch the AT any further until we see if all this doom crying over brutes stealing tanker's thunder actually pans out.
All the time we have had coop teaming in RWZ and Cim and there has still been plenty of demand for tanks. Personally I think the biggest threat to a tanker's job security is a controller and we have been sharing teams with them since day one. |
Some peoples Brutes don't enter Tanker territory, some do, although not always fully and if trying to then usually not properly. Take a Tanker player and put them behind a Brute and that Brute might actually outdo other peoples Tankers. I believe it possible. Consider the better damage level of that Brute, players that team with it decide Brutes are better....words spreads like that time when people led Shadowhunter into the water...and suddenly everyone thinks Brutes are better. Moral of story, no Tanker player should make a Brute look that good.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
If there was more content that fully utilized Tanker survivability, would their lower offense still be perceived as a problem?
Just some food for thought...
I like the 'Battle Cry' idea quite a lot, so kudos to whoever conceived that. The DEVs most likely will not want a force multiplier, but if they were to do this, perhaps we could suggest a different version of Battle Cry that affects the defense and resistance of the aggroed mobs and buffs teammates.
Say, something along the lines of this:
Tanker Inherent: AURA OF BATTLE
Written description:
The tanker is empowered by the spirit of battle. For every individual foe aggroed on the tank, the tank emits a Battle Aura that draws the attention of the foes, distracts them and makes them more vulnerable and emboldening his teammates.
Numeric Effects:
40' radius of effected mobs (normal Taunt range applies)
A) +.5% defense debuff per mob all damage types
B) +1% damage resistance debuff per mob all damage ypes
C) +.5% Critical hit bonus all ATs with critical hit mechanics
D) +1% Fury/Defiance/Vigilance generation efficiency per mob for ATs with these mechanics
Example:
Tanker is surrounded by 10 mobs ALL of which are aggroed to him/her
Battle Aura provides the following in a 40' radius around the tanker
5% defense debuffs (all damage types)
10% damage resistance debuff (all damage types)
+5% Critical hit bonus for Scrapper, Stalkers, Dominators and Controllers in the 40' sphere
+10% Fury/Vigilance/Defiance/Supremecy generation gain
A brute with 50% Fury sees his/her Fury boosted to 55% upon entering the 40' sphere
They could make it a new inherent passive that works a new form of Gauntlet.
Given the effects, probably a fairer solution would be to give it the Domination mechanics 200s recharge and 90s uptime, or perhaps something slightly different for flavor. Durations could depend somewhat on what th DEVs see tankers doing in the new content moving forward. Something like 40s uptime and 100s recharge if they saw it as a shorter term mechanic. My preference would be that they make it more like 120s uptime and 300s recharge as a nice team buff for future AV and GM (dare I say Galactic?) battles in future, more difficult content.
In this inheresnt, a second tanker becomes potentially a very attractive team member, especially as teams working strategically to have dual tankers working separate spawns with the team members positioned in between. Extrapolate this to a triangle strategy where the core team sits in the middle of three tanks each at the corners of a triangle.
Our controller, scrapper, stalker, dominator, corrupter teammates love us because we are helping them make more Crits.
Our defender, blaster, brute and MM friends love us because it aids in their inherent values.
A much simpler version if the DEVs do not feel that they would want Tanks having any force multiplier capabilities would be to simply have A) and B) not work as debuffs but buffs for the tanker. This is not as attractive because it does not solve the "more than one tank on a team is suboptimal" problem, rather exacerbates it somewhat as the tanks will be splitting the available aggro.
I'm probably off my rocker, but I think something like could work and be valuable to the team overall. The Battle Cry mechanic is very good as well, and I recall really appreciating that at the time I read it.
Cheers
EDIT: Fixed a couple of typos
[B] GUARDIAN 50s:[/B] [B]Tank[/B]: Ice/Fire, Fire/Fire, DA/SS, Inv/WM, SD/Elec...[B]Scrap[/B]: BS/Reg, Spin/DA, DM/SD, Fire/WP, Claws/SR....[B]Troller[/B]: Ill/Rad, Fire/Kin...[B]Blaster[/B]: Fire/EM....[B]Defender[/B]: D3...[B]Brute[/B]: Elm/ElA...[B]EPIC[/B]: Widow, PB, Crab...CURRENTLY: 45 Stone/Stone Tank...38 AR/Rad Corr...21 Ice^3 Dom
If there was more content that fully utilized Tanker survivability, would their lower offense still be perceived as a problem?
Just some food for thought... |
Some of this is user perception, though. People look at an all Controller Mo run (or all Scrapper, Blaster, what have you) and state that this means Tankers are not needed. No, what it means is that no AT is not needed. I don't need a Controller on an Mo run, or a Blaster either, though they can be nice. And Tankers are certainly nice to have on Mo runs: I prefer having two, actually, if aggro hits the fan.
Which leads to another perception thing. I don't think the aggro cap needs to go higher... if a team is having issues with the Tank going above the aggro cap they can get another Tank, or adjust their strategy. Or get another AT to help with the aggro.
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
If there was more content that fully utilized Tanker survivability, would their lower offense still be perceived as a problem?
Just some food for thought... |
More powerful enemies?
That only punishes Tankers. They're the ones who take the brunt of the harder hits or debuffs, but times eight. If the Tanker is doing their job, the team doesn't even feel it. Such enemies are also usually tougher defensively as well. So then Tankers not only get to take more damage, they get to deal less damage as well.
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The tank forum really needs to stop crying over the aggro cap. You don't go to the Blaster forum and see them crying that they can't do their job by not hitting over 16 targets with an AOE or the controller forum saying they can't do their job if they can't control over 16 targets. It's only the tanker forum.
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My Mind/Mind Dom has Mass Confusion, AoE Sleep, AoE Hold and AoE Fear, most of those on recharges between 10 seconds and one minute.
I can shut down 64 Enemies with my first wave of AoE CC... and thats not just theory I did that many times now.
How could Tankers be buffed in a meaningful way? |
You're welcome.
Because a well played Controller or Dominator can shut down so many targets it makes the Tanker look like a bad joke in comparison.
My Mind/Mind Dom has Mass Confusion, AoE Sleep, AoE Hold and AoE Fear, most of those on recharges between 10 seconds and one minute. I can shut down 64 Enemies with my first wave of AoE CC... and thats not just theory I did that many times now. |
Don't pick an extreme example, no doubt with recharge to the gills (considering 2 of the 4 are on base 4 minute timers and the other two are on 40s/45s timers) and including many soft controls.
Every control set can't do that.
They're soft and not hard controls, meaning one idiot ruins.
You don't run into 64 enemy spawns.
And, we're assuming no other aggro management whatsoever is on the team.
You still can't do what a tank does. You can't re-position mobs (mind can with telekinesis, but it takes practice and you didn't list it). You've got no -kb to help with knockback containment (whereas a smart tank can reposition near structure). You can't do squat against POTD.
So, in an ideal condition, with no other forms of mitigation on the team, everything recharged, no AVs, clustered 8 man spawns..........yes, you can control more than one single tank. Bravo.
It doesn't replace a tank. That sleep pops due to anyone hitting it, you have to wait for it to recharge. The fear pops, they get an attack in.
A tank can reposition and re-grab aggro, its not waiting for recharge. Any of those controls aren't recharged and you can't use them. A good tank can keep mobs moving towards him even, aggroed, even if a squishy is in the way.
I don't know how many times on my Energy Blaster, where I'm positioning to control knockback that I can stand in the middle of incoming enemies and the tank can move them to where I'm shooting. A controller can't do that. A dominator can't do that.
They can't replace a tank. They do their thing, a tank does his. Both excel in certain situations.
The difference is, they no longer cry about things that were done so many issues ago, like some on the tanker forum do. Some think that increasing the aggro cap even a little somehow validates the AT. You haven't changed role, you're arguing scale. In your extreme example, we'd have to increase it to 64 targets to make the tank control as well as your dominator.
That's ridiculous, and you should know that. Increasing the Aggro cap to 20 or 30 won't validate tanks, it will make people want to raise it to 40 or 50! That's how the playerbase works......they whine and moan until they get more and more.
@brophog
I think they're reaching desperately. There's something "wrong" with the Tanker AT. Nobody can agree on what that is or what the solution could be. I really think the problem is overspecialization in the AT. Aggro management in itself is a way too limited task to build an entire AT around. Also, in my opinion, it's very simplistic. Tankers do the job well, as well as any AT should ever be able to handle a job itself, but that doesn't make the job always fun or interesting. |
It could be a lot of things. The aggro cap doesn't change the AT, it changes the scale that the AT works on. It is just an arbitrary number. 16 is big enough to be big, yet one can still design encounters to exceed it. If you have more than 16 targets, odds are pretty darn good you have a team......and they can do something about those targets you can't keep aggroed. Yeah, managing a large spawn is necessary, that's the entire reason target caps, aggro caps, and mez duration and recharge times on controls were redone.
Every AT has to deal with that change.
Unfortunately, on support heavy teams, no one is more boring or useless than my tank. |
That's just how the game is.........especially in 35+. I've quit more teams in that range because I felt unneeded than I have teams that died a lot. I don't particularly care for steamrolling teams and that's about the range where any AT on a decent team gets about 1 attack off and finds everything dead.
It's not so much AT design, but the fact the vast, vast majority of this game can be done with about 2 people on an 8 man team.
If I find myself in that situation I politely quit and find another. There's always another team out there that can use your services, regardless of your AT.
I have to disagree with the contention that there is a significant flaw in the Tank design.
All I see here is that it does not fit some individuals expectations and tastes.
If you want more damage play a brute or a scrapper.
If you want more control of spawns play a controller or dominator.
If you want more survivability...well there are some awefully tough mastermind combos.
This game has a lot of options. Personally Tank suit me right down to the ground and I fail to see a pressing need to rework an archetype in a vain attempt to please someone who already has several other options open to them.
re:the whole feeling useless on a given team thing....
Any good duo/trio can make the remainder of the team irrelevant. I've run every blueside and redside TF/SF with two friends with no need for a team at fairly high difficulty setting with no issue. In fact the few times we let other folks tag along it actively slowed us down. If you feel useless turn up the difficulty.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
On a serious note, I like the buffs the tanks currently have. I do know we do not want tanks to herd up entire maps like the old days, but I do think they should double the Aggro cap from 16 to 32. I dont want this for farming, but for when 2 mobs are close together and the tanker can handle them both with out fear of the team members dying.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
On a serious note, I like the buffs the tanks currently have. I do know we do not want tanks to herd up entire maps like the old days, but I do think they should double the Aggro cap from 16 to 32. I dont want this for farming, but for when 2 mobs are close together and the tanker can handle them both with out fear of the team members dying.
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Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Every team is different and not every team I play with has experience players and the overspill does become more than they can handle. I just had to learn how to pull better when I come across a team like that. It is never a problem with an experienced tanker, but the old school tanker in me wants to just jump in and be the meat shield I used to be.
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*shudder*
The phrase "herding to here" still makes me break out in a cold sweat.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Agreed that no AT is necessary, but would add that the opportunity cost of choosing one AT over another can diminish a team. For instance, eight blasters can DPS their way through almost everything. Seven blasters and one tank can do so faster, more easily, and more safely. The aggro management and tightly packed groups let any team do whatever they do more efficiently and more safely.