Sigh.... another gimmick. You know what this means?
This means I'm gonna have to change my stance on adding more gimmicks to the archetype, because I FREAKIN' LOVE this suggestion! Seriously. Leo that suggestion is creative, well-thought, thematic and more than flexible enough to get around my "no moar gimmicks" personal cottage rule.
/signed a thousand times. I'll take all my suggestions back and delete one of my stalkers if we can get this. Well, maybe I'll just not play one of my stalkers for a while...
I only have one problem - why haven't you posted this in the so.... stalkers thread yet? Get hoppin', man!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Because, while I do enjoy reading and brainstorming ideas, I'm sort of in the school that doesn't think Stalkers really need an offensive buff.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I only have one problem - why haven't you posted this in the so.... stalkers thread yet? Get hoppin', man!
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I hear all the arguments about how Scraps get better survivability and damage and how situational AS is, but in the actual game...I just never see it. Perhaps on paper, but when I play (and I play other stuff besides Stalkers), the game turns out vastly different.
I can't tell you how many times I've wished I had BU/AS on my Claws/EA brute, or how much less trouble enemies would have been if my MA/Shield Scrap had stealth.
While I was posting that idea, I was actually playing my Spines/DA stalker in a team with a Claws/? scrap, 2 Elec/ doms and a Fire/Dark corruptor at lvl 38 doing a simple mission, the Aura mission which the Scrap had never done before.
Guess who took the alphas? Guess who did a crap ton of damage? Guess who was the guy alive recalling dead bodies and working his inspiration tray and Resuscitator temp power? Guess who was leading the team and finding the Guardians to expedite the mission obviously set to high in difficulty?
But if you want to post that idea in the other stalker thread, be my guest. I'm not sure how powerful it would be on current stalkers but it certainly synergize with quicker team pace while still building on the concentrated burst style of Stalkers.
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Kind of ambivalent about it myself. I also think/worry that Castle saying he's extremely aware of where stalkers fall and that he intends to do something about it that he doesn't necessarily think stalkers are behind.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Because, while I do enjoy reading and brainstorming ideas, I'm sort of in the school that doesn't think Stalkers really need an offensive buff.
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Doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good idea, though.
Quote:
| I hear all the arguments about how Scraps get better survivability and damage and how situational AS is, but in the actual game...I just never see it. Perhaps on paper, but when I play (and I play other stuff besides Stalkers), the game turns out vastly different. |
There's something to be said for finesse, and that's what has always appealed to me about stalkers. On teams, however, I've found my experience post I-12 sinking ever-so-slightly downward into the boredom of random criticals and button mashing, and the changes I've liked the best bring a little thinking back to the archetype that I'm afraid it just might have lost.
I don't care about out-damaging scrappers. Let them leap headlong into the spawn and button-mash their way to the boss in a rabid fury. I'd much rather be standing over the boss's body when they get there and snicker as I toss them his head.
I just looked up and re-read my last paragraph. Yeesh, the melodrama! Sums up how I feel, but sometimes I make myself roll my own eyes.
...moving on...
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Sounds good and complicated. I would love for Stalkers to have smoke flash kind of power to allow them unleash criticals. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Too clunky IMO, Jib. Although if there was a bar to tell you what point you were at, it'd at least be more visible but just waiting on a message to pop when most likely, you'll have a power queued up and waste it...eh, just seems clunky and unpredictable.
Not that I think Stalkers are in desperate need of a damage buff, but reading the threads gave me some inspiration. So a different spin on the "Killer Instinct" inherent idea: -I always like to think of exactly how an idea would be implemented so it draws not only from Jibi's thoughts of more 'controlled bursts'. -Also pulls from the tech shown in the new Fiery Embrace change. -The ability of Mastermind's Smoke Flash power. -Finally, Castle once suggested a change to Blaster Defiance when it was being looked at, that change being a buff for every foe you defeat. Assassination Inherent (what we've got) -Bonus damage on Assassin's Strike from the 'Hidden' status (PvP and PvE) -100% critical chance on single target attacks and 50% on AoE attacks from the 'Hidden' status (PvP and PvE) -Demoralize on a group of enemies if attack does not defeat the target (PvE) -Scaling Critical rate for each ally within 30ft range (PvE) -20% chance to critical hit held or slept foes (PvP) (what this idea would add) -A 'Killer Instinct' counter for each foe the Stalker defeats with a primary power (PvE) --You can only obtain 1 kill counter per power used. So a ST attack will get you 1 kill counter if the foe is defeated by the attack. An AoE attack will get you 1 kill counter if one or more foes is defeated by the attack. A successful Assassin's Strike, if the foe is defeated or not, adds 1 kill counter. -You can stack up to 3 'Killer Instinct' counters that will basically appear in your buff bar as a unique icon, each of which will last approx. 30 seconds. -Stacking more than 3 kill counts will rewrite the oldest counter's duration. -Using Build up or Placate will basically expend the 'Killer Instinct' counters and reset them to 0. Why focus on applying this to Build up and Placate? Because, as is, Assassin's Strike is already a strong tool with alternate uses (an Alpha dampener and burst attack from hide) while BU is pretty Binary and Placate does have some defensive capabilities and limited offense, it *is* a unique power to Stalkers... Placate- When you use Placate with 0 kill counts, it acts like it does now. But for each kill count you rack up before using Placate, you basically get *another placate*. Think of it like MM's smoke flash that lets their Jounin chain crit for a short duration. Placate will basically be a BuildUp/SmokeFlash mash-up that basically boosts damage by giving you up to 3 extra chain crits *if* you defeated 3 foes within 30sec (or started out with AS and then defeat 2 foes within 30sec). Build Up- When BU is used with 0 kill counts, it acts like it does now. But for each kill count you rack up before using BU, you basically get a 1-shot 'Fiery Embrace' damage add-on that is enhanceable by the inherent damage buff of BU. Think of it like Fiery Embrace, that adds (i believe) 45% of the base damage of an attack as fire damage. So BU would be a Placate/FieryEmbrace mash-up that gives you a +15% extra added damage to the next attack(the type of damage added would depend on the set...so Claws would add lethal damage and Energy Melee would add Energy damage) for each kill count you have...that's +45% of the base damage of an attack added if you kill 3 foes within 30sec (or started out with non-BU AS and then defeat 2 foes within 30sec). I could see various approaches to take in a fight, some lending better to certain sets but every set being able to exploit any of the available approach due to the make-up of all Stalker sets. |
Your idea is flexible in a way that you can choose to score 3 critical in a row or choose to get 3 stacking buffs.
I think the # of critical may be reduced because 3 critical in a row is pretty nasty and also if we keep the natural critical rate, Stalker could be scoring too many criticals.
The difference between your idea and mine is that yours requires Stalker to "kill" first and mine is just simply re-working how Critical happens in Stalker AT. My idea is very unpolished as I am not good at math to figure out how the "timer" should be. My main complaint on Stalker is how the critical(s) is "random" most of the time. Scrapper's critical is random and Stalker's critical should not be.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Well, bear in mind that hitting build up before the AS will expend the KI counters, meaning that you have to choose whether to use them in build up or placate.
Basically, when AS'ing an enemy you can use build up , expend the three counters and get the bonus damage. You'll assassinate your target to get another counter, and (if you didn't kill your target with the assassination) get another counter when you kill him. Then you placate the next guy and get a critical on him and on the next guy. (possibly getting counters on both.)
Since the counters are timed to expire, I don't think three would be too out of whack given that a placate or a build up clears the count.
I do think we'd have to give something up to get this, though.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Well, the idea is, most Stalkers, if they're doing what they're suppose to be doing and eliminating hard targets by throwing in an AS, you'll have 2 counters by doing so (Using AS successfully, even if it doesn't kill the target gets you 1, following up and defeating that target gets you another).
From there, the main variable is, you've got BU for another hard Burst or you've got Placate for string of crits...but the balancing point IMO is will there even be anything left worth using it on? Would going for the 3rd counter be necessary or worthwhile?
I think that's where the meat of the proposal is. You've got these types of choices that will ultimately affect your performance. The knowlegable Stalker will know when to do what and there will be periods where no extra burst is used but saved to focus on a hard target later. The inexperienced Stalker still feels the meats of his labor by slaughtering those last few minions with prejudice.
All in all, I think it's pretty clunky myself. I think where the main difference between your idea, Jibi, and mine is the predictability. If there *was* a bar for your Killer Instinct idea, it'd be similar to having the Icons per kill but quicker and without the control of if you want to use it or not.
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Yeah basically my idea is pretty simple. Just allow critical to happen in a set "timer" so Stalkers who are used to scrap (random critical) can still scrap and those that like to choose which target to receive critical can do so. It's probably too simple. lol |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
All in all, I think it's pretty clunky myself. I think where the main difference between your idea, Jibi, and mine is the predictability. If there *was* a bar for your Killer Instinct idea, it'd be similar to having the Icons per kill but quicker and without the control of if you want to use it or not. |
Your idea is good but it sounds a bit complicated to implement. I don't know.. the dev team is bigger and if they REALLY want to improve Stalker, they can.
I just want my Stalker to be able to land critical on targets I choose. Maybe they just need to improve Placate so we get more critical out of it.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Mmmmmm... then a Stalker is rewarded more by killing "minions" first because I can get "counter" faster. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Well, bear in mind that hitting build up before the AS will expend the KI counters, meaning that you have to choose whether to use them in build up or placate.
Basically, when AS'ing an enemy you can use build up , expend the three counters and get the bonus damage. You'll assassinate your target to get another counter, and (if you didn't kill your target with the assassination) get another counter when you kill him. Then you placate the next guy and get a critical on him and on the next guy. (possibly getting counters on both.) Since the counters are timed to expire, I don't think three would be too out of whack given that a placate or a build up clears the count. I do think we'd have to give something up to get this, though. |
This system at least gives me choices. By killing minions more, I get more counters which I can spend on "hard" targets.
My idea of an "Assassin" is to scout the situation and deliver "massive" damage. I didn't want Stalker to get "rewarded" for constantly hitting because that will be similar to Brute/Blaster. Right now we do have Hidden and the ability to deliver initial hit but what happens after that is what hurts Stalker on a team because waiting for 8s of doing nothing hurts dps and continuously scrapping after "hidden" is just like a Scrapper with random crits.
My head is exploding! lol Maybe Castle can come here and share his thoughts.
Hell, I'll be happy if I have another Placate-type of power that doesn't "blind" the target/doesn't get "interrupted" and I can use it to score critical on my command, which is how I thought about Killer Instinct icon. When it's up, you can time it or you can just release it right away with any attack. If you just release it with any attack, then it's similar to the "random critical" mechanism because obvious you don't care who receive the critical hit.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well, if landing a successful AS grants 1 counter even if the foe isn't defeated, there's still incentive to take out tough or annoying targets first especially if they're Lts. An AS that doesn't kill the target followed by some attacks that *do* kill it = 2 counters easy. Then you can go placate>BU or BU>placate the big boss ^^
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Mmmmmm... then a Stalker is rewarded more by killing "minions" first because I can get "counter" faster.
This system at least gives me choices. By killing minions more, I get more counters which I can spend on "hard" targets. |
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How about you get more counter for killing a Boss? Based on rank? Not sure how deep the counter needs to be but minion/lieut gives 1 and bosses give 2? This way you may have the incentive to kill bosses first. hehe
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, if landing a successful AS grants 1 counter even if the foe isn't defeated, there's still incentive to take out tough or annoying targets first especially if they're Lts. An AS that doesn't kill the target followed by some attacks that *do* kill it = 2 counters easy. Then you can go placate>BU or BU>placate the big boss ^^
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Someone asked why play a Stalker over a Scrapper? Stalkers are just way WAY cooler, particularly with /Nin.
Pure concept
l
l
most people
(me)
l
l
min-maxer
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
Complex mechanics = Not likely to happen.
It's a nice suggestion, bit all that code work for an AT that in your own words is "slightly" underperforming on teams, and fine solo?
Yeah, right.
EDIT: As someone mentioned, what do you propose stalkers lose to get this new complex gimmick?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Nothing, since the entire point of the gimmick is that they are underperforming right now. They clearly need a bit of a buff; the question is whether to just give them a straight buff, and preserve their relative weakness on teams, or try to find a way to preserve their play style while making them more useful to teams.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
EDIT: As someone mentioned, what do you propose stalkers lose to get this new complex gimmick?
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If I wanted to have to pay attention to who lands the killing blow, I'd play DotA.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Killer Instinct
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Addendum: I do not play DotA. There is a reason for this.
Further:
If I wanted to have to rush from spawn to spawn lest I lose the buffs I got by defeating the last one, I'd play a Brute.
Addendum: I do not play Brutes. There is also a reason for this.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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Don't want to pay attention to kills? Okay. Don't want to maintain counters like fury? Don't. Since the counters are only limited to three, and an AS will get you two of the three in about as many seconds, I don't see too many people worrying about maintaining the buff. And if you can't get an AS off in a given spawn, taking down just one minion in the opening alpha will get you more than one critical on a placate.|
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
If I wanted to have to pay attention to who lands the killing blow, I'd play DotA.
Addendum: I do not play DotA. There is a reason for this. Further: If I wanted to have to rush from spawn to spawn lest I lose the buffs I got by defeating the last one, I'd play a Brute. Addendum: I do not play Brutes. There is also a reason for this. |
I don't know about you, but when I'm limited to three stackable buffs at a time, I don't really obsess about maintaining them because just ignoring them altogether and playing as I normally do will - more often than not - keep me just over halfway there at two buffs. The third one's gravy.
It's not a perfect suggestion, but I like it.
It gives you options; it doesn't bind you to a particular playstyle. Is it a bit kludgy? Yep. Gimicky? Yep. But it retains the flexibility for you to make the split-second tactical decisions that a ST burst focused archetype needs to make without getting in the way. The amount of stacking could be adjusted downward or the decay could be shortened, but overall it's a good start I think.
By the way, what's DtoA?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
I think another point (that just so happened to be drilled over and over by specific complaints about teams that go too fast in the thread) is that, *if* the team is rushing and steamrolling, you've got an Ace in the hole that you choose when to use.|
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
If I wanted to have to rush from spawn to spawn lest I lose the buffs I got by defeating the last one, I'd play a Brute. Addendum: I do not play Brutes. There is also a reason for this. |
You've basically got a self-fulfilling buff on a fast team. Hit BU, then use a hard attack from hide on a weak enemy = 1 counter. Next group, hit with a hard attack from hide then placate for 2 (or more if the initial attack defeated something) crits for a total of 3 crits in a row to get 1 or 2 counters. Next group, BU and you get bonus damage added ontop of the damage buff to take out one target faster...so on and so forth.
As is, we're almost penalized for the speed you go. A bit fast and you'll have to go without BU and/or placate. Too Fast and you might not be getting off your AS. Really fast and Hide won't be back up before you engage again.
Addendum: Apparently you'd rather not have the option to 'keep up' if necessary, which is a shame. I myself don't feel that I *have* to be shoulder to shoulder with the other melees all the time, I do my own thing. But when I am, yeah, I'll end up critting alot. (Clarification: Just because we have scaling crits on teams doesn't mean you *need* to exploit it at every turn for it to be useful)
Too clunky IMO, Jib. Although if there was a bar to tell you what point you were at, it'd at least be more visible but just waiting on a message to pop when most likely, you'll have a power queued up and waste it...eh, just seems clunky and unpredictable.
Not that I think Stalkers are in desperate need of a damage buff, but reading the threads gave me some inspiration.
So a different spin on the "Killer Instinct" inherent idea:
-I always like to think of exactly how an idea would be implemented so it draws not only from Jibi's thoughts of more 'controlled bursts'.
-Also pulls from the tech shown in the new Fiery Embrace change.
-The ability of Mastermind's Smoke Flash power.
-Finally, Castle once suggested a change to Blaster Defiance when it was being looked at, that change being a buff for every foe you defeat.
Assassination Inherent
(what we've got)
-Bonus damage on Assassin's Strike from the 'Hidden' status (PvP and PvE)
-100% critical chance on single target attacks and 50% on AoE attacks from the 'Hidden' status (PvP and PvE)
-Demoralize on a group of enemies if attack does not defeat the target (PvE)
-Scaling Critical rate for each ally within 30ft range (PvE)
-20% chance to critical hit held or slept foes (PvP)
(what this idea would add)
-A 'Killer Instinct' counter for each foe the Stalker defeats with a primary power (PvE)
--You can only obtain 1 kill counter per power used. So a ST attack will get you 1 kill counter if the foe is defeated by the attack. An AoE attack will get you 1 kill counter if one or more foes is defeated by the attack. A successful Assassin's Strike, if the foe is defeated or not, adds 1 kill counter.
-You can stack up to 3 'Killer Instinct' counters that will basically appear in your buff bar as a unique icon, each of which will last approx. 30 seconds.
-Stacking more than 3 kill counts will rewrite the oldest counter's duration.
-Using Build up or Placate will basically expend the 'Killer Instinct' counters and reset them to 0.
Why focus on applying this to Build up and Placate? Because, as is, Assassin's Strike is already a strong tool with alternate uses (an Alpha dampener and burst attack from hide) while BU is pretty Binary and Placate does have some defensive capabilities and limited offense, it *is* a unique power to Stalkers...
Placate- When you use Placate with 0 kill counts, it acts like it does now. But for each kill count you rack up before using Placate, you basically get *another placate*. Think of it like MM's smoke flash that lets their Jounin chain crit for a short duration. Placate will basically be a BuildUp/SmokeFlash mash-up that basically boosts damage by giving you up to 3 extra chain crits *if* you defeated 3 foes within 30sec (or started out with AS and then defeat 2 foes within 30sec).
Build Up- When BU is used with 0 kill counts, it acts like it does now. But for each kill count you rack up before using BU, you basically get a 1-shot 'Fiery Embrace' damage add-on that is enhanceable by the inherent damage buff of BU. Think of it like Fiery Embrace, that adds (i believe) 45% of the base damage of an attack as fire damage. So BU would be a Placate/FieryEmbrace mash-up that gives you a +15% extra added damage to the next attack(the type of damage added would depend on the set...so Claws would add lethal damage and Energy Melee would add Energy damage) for each kill count you have...that's +45% of the base damage of an attack added if you kill 3 foes within 30sec (or started out with non-BU AS and then defeat 2 foes within 30sec).
I could see various approaches to take in a fight, some lending better to certain sets but every set being able to exploit any of the available approach due to the make-up of all Stalker sets.