Cannot build a good Stalker

Joe... what does this scenario prove about adding a Stalker to this team that it doesn't also prove about adding ANY more damage to the team? You just obliterated everything but the boss inside of three seconds. What is ANY damage dealing AT going to do except ST damage to that boss that will improve the situation? This certainly isn't a case where AoE helps. In fact it will do LESS than single target here because it will only contribute to further overkill on minions.

Killing this fast makes a lot of things useless, in fact. What chance does anyone have of getting hurt so long as the Brute runs in just a half second before anyone else to grab the aggro? So long, bubblers! Get him a healz0r to top him off between spawns and you're golden. No one else has been touched. And unless my Dark def/corr lands Tar Patch before the Brute gets there (thus taking the alpha) it's not likely to buff ANY of the first round attacks, by which time it ends up only adding a bit of -res to the Boss and then not being availble to use for the next spawn or two (after all, we're killing a spawn per 10 seconds it sounds like).

What does that mean though? A faster Assassin Strike wouldn't make the Stalker in your example much more useful. "Contribute" doesn't mean "kill the enemy one second before someone else would have anyway". If you can go AFK and no one notices... you aren't contributing. Not really. And no one is going to notice AS landing one second earlier if its damage isn't needed anyway.

Odd side note: Playing my newbie KM/SR last night I noticed that KM's AS *does* seem to land a second earlier. Maybe this has been noted elsewhere but its listed activation time is 2.67 and it doesn't appear to be a typo. In my chatlog (which only has 1-second resolution on its timestamps) my AS is landing either 2 or 3 seconds after activation, which would probably average to 2.67 if I took enough samples.

Well, now I wouldn't be posting in this thread in the first place if I didn't agree with that on some level. AS and Placate could use some help to be made more effective on teams.

The bonuses I listed were specifically related to the toggle suppression that comes with hide; something Scrappers will never get. The ability to selectively drop hide and unsuppress those toggles is something that takes skill and finesse to capitalize on, but that doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

Okay. Just remember what I said about skill and finesse.

But Scrappers can't de-aggro nearby mobs and move on without combining that spawn with the next one. Although I'm not sure about how the new tethering would affect this.

The tools lost are of little use to stalkers. Do you really think a damage aura will help you kill faster? More likely it will attract more aggro and get you killed quicker. Do you really think you need end recovery tools outside of stamina? Do you really need stamina by 20?

Then you're doing it wrong.

"To be near the goal while the enemy is still far from it, to wait at ease while the enemy is toiling and struggling, to be well-fed while the enemy is famished - this is the art of husbanding one's strength."

---Sun Tzu

In other words, Stealthing in gets you to your intended target at full health. With a scrapper, you risk getting there at less than optimal health and endurance levels, and may have to struggle for the victory. The ability to start a fight when and where you choose is not to be underestimated.

Again, if you don't see the value, you're doing it wrong.

Well again - team performance is what I'm talking about improving, but by the same token you can't judge an entire archetype as pathetic simply because their solo performance doesn't translate well to teams. If you prefer teaming, then you might well like scrappers better. More power to ya.

I'm not talking about Energize, I'm talking about Power Sink, which does indeed do -recovery. Link.

And I'm not talking about waiting for the re-hide, either. You don't have to use placate right after the AS every single time ya know. In large spawns you might just be better off on an /elec to drain their end first and then be able to placate/crit without worrying about return fire knocking you out of hidden status.

Clearly you're doing this wrong, as well. The only combo that you don't get much use out of early on is the weaken combo, and really - how often do you need to bring down resistance in the early levels? Just because two of the four combos use the AS/Placate/BU synergy doesn't mean they're not useful. If anything, they make the AS even more potent. The fact that you can't use them as often on a team is reason to make those powers more useable on a team, not declare the entire set is gimped.

Bear in mind that this example doesn't take into account the position or number of minions and lt's. I specifically said any minions around him because I didn't account for any lt's or minions that would be outside the radius and/or target cap. But that's not the point. The point was not to show that everything would be dead by the time the AS landed - it was to illustrate that it would be more efficient to use a lesser, faster animating power.

An AS that activated in just half the time would have saved those blasters from wasting their follow-up attacks on the boss and let them - through the joy of automatic targeting - target another mob in what's left of the spawn.

And to your point about Tar Patch: it can be cast from range, can't be interrupted and would affect more than just the boss and his surrounding minions. Those not destroyed in the initial round of AoE would likely still be in range of the tar pit and would be debuffed by (and be too busy to return fire due to trying to get out of) that same patch.


As I said above, an AS that lands in just half the time would have killed the boss and automatically redirected those attacks to more useful targets. People will notice an AS if it actually kills a target before their attacks have a chance to land on the same target. An AS that activates quicker will speed up kill time.

Alternately, an AS that can't be interrupted will also be more flexible, letting the stalker use it on the run like other attacks. I'd take that, too.

Now that is interesting. I'll have to check on my KM/Dark tonight, but it would explain why the Buildup is a second longer... Hmmm... would I take a shortened animation on AS in exchanged for a compensatory lengthening of Build up? Hellz yeah. You can activate Buildup on the run and it isn't interruptible. Gonna have to see how much use I can get from this. Thanks for the info!

If that problem were the spawn dying before you could do max damage to it I would agree, but a Scrapper in that same example would continue scrapping on a different target. A sonic Blaster would just switch targets.

A stalker has to switch tactics from burst damage to something he's not designed to excel at. That's the problem I'm trying to illustrate.

If the target dies with the AS, demoralize doesn't go into effect. How is that underestimating it? If your answer to not being able to utilize AS on teams except in rare situations is to switch tactics and not use it, and demoralize only happens after a successful AS, then how is that underestimating demoralize?

Don't get me wrong. I love demoralize. Hell, I'm the one who originally suggested it. I'm just saying that demoralize's uses on teams are limited by how often AS can be used without killing its target.

Not saying it never happens on teams, just saying it doesn't happen enough.

Really? Might want to look at Zem's remarks about the 2 and change second animation for the KM AS (apparently at the expense of that second being added to Buildup).

Could be a mistake. Time will tell.

Edit, I am mixing people here, we agree on demoralize.

Walking into a Spawn of mobs x8 and Assassin striking one (kill or live) is not going to make a lick of difference to the alpha a scrapper eats on the way in.

You overvalue the hidden gimmick a great deal.

Quote Sun Tzu all you want, but "the ability to choose your target" at your leisure is of little value on a team.
While you are browsing your target menu, the scrapper is using his abilities and killing those targets.

The scrapper doesn't need the Toggle suppression gimmick because he has the additional survival and Damage that he can waltz in with offenses blazing, getting his full potential.

Stalker DA is pinned on Hide, and NEEDED that special mechanic to become functionally less annoying.

Yes a damage aura helps a scrapper kill faster.
Yes Endurance management powers help a scrapper kill faster and opens thier builds.
Yes the additional AOEs add value to scrapper attacks.

Losing these things in exchange for the Build Up, AS, Placate gimmick is a massive hit to performance, and what stalkers get in exchange is laughable.

You are trying to tell me that a stalker can use Sweep and empower more often than the Dual Blades set as it was originally designed?

A combo tied to an interruptable attack and long recharge self buff is faster than one tied to standard attacks?

Go ahead and tell me that I am doing it wrong.

I play elec/ninjitsu and Spines/ninjitsu which happilly can actually hang with the rest of the melee community and actually contribute to teams, while still excel solo.

It just kills me that only 2 stalker combos are competative with the rest of melee in City of heroes.

Then why do you continue to troll these threads? You went from reasonable concern in Beta to constant whining about wanting Ninjitsu on Scrappers--a prospect that looks less and less likely the more I look at it. While Joe and Leo do make very good points, seebs generally reflect what I see and how I play with Stalkers. Enemy A, even if they can be killed quickly (Sappers, Longbow Nullifiers, PPD Equalizers), has an annoying and or powerful effect that can be completely eliminated before they alpha. I mean, of course Stalkers are less useful some Freakshow/Council farm.

My Arcs
-----
Mission Architect Handyman

Dude, just go play a scrapper and quit trolling. Scrappers are six shades of awesome. And they don't need Ninjitsu ported over for you to participate in that awesome. Go. Hunt. Kil skulz.

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you Scrappers ain't all that, because they are. They're all that and a bag of razor blades. So go on with your bad self and roll one up. I personally enjoy both playstyles, and have 50's in each.

You don't get Stalkers, and that's cool. Scrapper forums are two forums up, and as someone told you in that forum - don't be a Johnny Butane. Play what you enjoy and stop trying to shoehorn another archetype into your playstyle if it doesn't fit.

This game isn't exactly rocket science fella.
Dps and TTL, that is pretty much the entire game.

Maybe the case isn't that I don't get stalkers, but you don't know that you are underperforming.

Only reason I play stalkers is that my themes required the Ninjitsu set, thankfully its the best set available to stalkers.

Wait, what? You hate stalkers because they're not up to min/max standards of performance, but play stalkers nonetheless for concept reasons?

o.O

.....aaaalrighty, then!

My main concern on Stalker is how inefficient our Assassin Strike is on a team. We've been playing Stalker for a long time and we know we are an inferior Scrapper with less access to AoE attacks.

I think most will agree that Stalker can "melee just fine" but is "fine" good enough to retain stalker users? I could be wrong but the data mining in 2008 shows that Stalker has the worst retention ratio on Villain side, meaning that people would pick Stalker and then give up pretty soon.

Stalker's main problem (besides living under Scrapper's shadow) is how inefficient Assassin Strike is on a team. Yes, I know we don't always need to set up AS but why not? Every primary set has AS and Placate and every secondary has Hide. The point of playing an Assassin is to use Assassin strike! If Assassin strike is more efficient (faster activation time, no interrupt, more opportunities to use it), then maybe we don't have to rely on other powers and play like an "inferior" Scrapper.

I am not advocating higher damage, higher HP or more AoE. I just want better Assassin Strike. I don't want to just use BU + AS once on a team. I don't want my role to be limited to initial 6s and the rest is playing as a weaker Scrapper.

You're under a horrible misconception about the function of the AT, it seems.

It's more than what a Scrapper gets, which is nothing. For team aid, Scrappers often consider such a thing a detriment to their role. For a Stalker? You get it wrapped into a power you're already trying to use. Brushing it aside as if it's a non-issue (especially considering the debuff capacity vs the foes that resist -ToHit) is underestimating it.

Okay, I'd really like to bridge the gap between your views and mine, because it sounds like we're not that far apart in practice. If I'm under a misconception, then what is your concept of the function of the AT? Surely you don't mean to imply that the AT shares the same function as a Scrapper as generic melee damage dealers, because that's a massive oversimplification. Were that true, there'd be no reason to have different archetypes at all.

A scrapper doesn't get nothing. A scrapper gets a higher hit point cap, higher base hit points, better damage modifiers and better self-mitigation. I'm not quite sure why you think it's so important that a scrapper doesn't get a debuffing effect that comes from a power that isn't even in a scrapper's arsenal. A scrapper helps the team by doing dps damage, pure and simple. He doesn't need aoe debuffs, or even want them because he's got higher secondary self-mitigation.

I'm beginning to wonder which one of us has a horrible misconception of the function of the stalker archetype.

Look, the demoralize effect is a wonderful tool, and I'm not brushing it aside in any sense when I say I'd like to see more opportunities to use it on teams. You say it's wrapped up in a power that we're already trying to use, and I say good! My problem isn't that the debuff isn't valuable, it's that the power it's wrapped up in has situational usage on teams, and that's what limits its value.

Put simply, giving stalkers the ability to leverage AS on teams to greater effect than they currently can will increase the occurrence and value of what we both agree is an already valuable debuff.

I min max within concept. Concept comes first, then I get as much performance out of it as possible.

If you are happy being an inferior scrapper with a gimmick that is great.

No one cares about demoralize on teams. Its a wonderful tool solo, but when was the last time a team appreciated a minor debuff that takes 4+ seconds to set up?

Honestly, it takes only about 3 seconds to land AS give or take a half second (at least according to the real-numbers) and BU can be done on the way to the target. You have been very conservative on the time it takes to land AS (BU, pause, positioning, and then I think using 4s as the activation time) while assuming Blasters are going to be in position to launch their attacks, even line up cones, before the stalker gets there. This is a problem with the stalker's timing at least in part. Get there first, even if it means letting someone else mop up the previous fight. Tankers do this all the time. Stalkers can too. I simply do not have this problem in practice on real teams in game. I can easily land my AS and often another one if the fight ends up spread out and there's another boss on the hoof. They aren't being killed out from under me all the time. Even on teams boosted by kins.

Tar patch does not induce "Afraid" state. You may be thinking of the RoF+TP combo. And I do not dispute the value of Tar Patch. I have a Dark corr and use it all the time on real teams. I am pointing out where in this example of spawns dying too fast (which is the basis of the "Stalkers aren't useful" argument) that other powers which take nearly as long to animate would also be of little use. So what if a few stray minions get tarred? On a team with that much firepower the minions are beneath notice practically. I could SKIP using tar patch on a spawn and you probably wouldn't notice the difference in kill time... assuming that much offense, that is. As it stands, I DO use it all the time. Mostly because spawns just don't die as fast as I read about on the forums on the typical PuGs I run on.

Won't argue that, but a stalker that is quicker TO the target will have the same effect. I can see AS coming down to 2.67 to match Kinetic Melee's version, but not much faster. Certainly no lower than 2s. This is a difference of 1-sec and change from what you have now. That's nothing on a real team. Yeah people would notice if it happened to be the 1s that made a difference but you are assuming quite the level of team synchronization. On real teams, you're lucky if everyone even arrives at the next spawn within FIVE seconds of one another.

The big problem here is PvP. Power effects (i.e. what happens AFTER the power hits) can be altered between PvE and PvP zones. Base attributes like activation and interrupt time cannot, as far as I know. I do not think they'd allow a fast, uninterruptible AS in PvP. Unless they develop the tech to allow this difference, it won't happen even in PvE. Ever.

I was going to try taking some data on the other few stalkers I have. I know I tried Assassin's Blade on my nin/nin and the timestamps came up 3s every time, but I didn't try many tests. If the time is really 3.67 as listed, then I should see some 4s activations in the chat log at least half the time on average.

I hadn't really kept up on the beta discussions of KM so I don't know if it was brought up and discussed. The Build Up time seems to be a copy of Power Siphon's activation time so perhaps it's just a database entry error. But I suppose it could be an experiment in shifting time from AS to Build Up. Interesting thought.

See "team aid"...

It'd be like if Scrappers PBAoE buffed the teams ToHit every time they hit BU or Follow up. It's a power that Scrappers already try and capitalize on and if it just so happened to have a buff for allies wrapped into it, that's equivalent to what Demoralize is. But Scrappers don't get team aid at all.

Yes, a Scrapper could put good use in a team aid power in all those 'Scrapper-lock' situations where he just keeps fighting but his allies already bit the dust.

Yes, demoralize is situational...about as situational as an Alpha strike can be.

Okay then. I'll put it in the form of a rant. This isn't directed at you or anyone in the thread.

/rant

What are Scrappers generally known for? Dealing high damage in melee range and not dying. That's pretty much it. Across the powers of its sets, a Scrapper doesn't control, or buff or debuff or tank...He just does what he does with any of those other effects occurring by accident.

But that doesn't mean Scrappers have a goddamned monopoly on hitting things in melee range! Sure, by definition, scrapping is fighting (which in the naturally done close up) and you can say a Brute scraps and a Tanker (Scranker) scraps and a Dominator scraps and a Blaster (Blapper) scraps, but the act of fighting in melee range IS NOT THE SOLE DAMN DOMAIN OF SCRAPPERS!

Stalkers. You've got Assassin's Strike. Great! Now use the rest of your damned primary. Seriously. Just because you've got *ONE* signature single target attack does not derive the bulk of your strategy. The devs gave you a *MELEE SET*....to attack things! IN MELEE! They didn't give you 'Assassin's Strike Melee'! You've got 6 other attacks, god damnit! Use them! And no! Using melee attacks in melee range before, after or in place of AS does not make you a god damned Scrapper! If it did, the devs *would* have just filled your primary with melee snipes...but they didn't.

As for all this BS about AS being too slow? Alright, I can see where you're coming from and the cast of placate could be reduced/removed for ease of use, but COME ON! You can't use AS before the enemy's dead or before it's overkill!?

HA!

I've stolen kills from under Blasters and Scrappers noses with Placate > AS! If I can do that, you should be able to not suck! Even if timing, lag or kill speed is an issue, you should still be able to get off AS at the start!

When all the bosses, Lts and annoying targets in a spawn are dead with only some scattered minions left, I'm already aiming to jump into the next spawn. Just 2 extra seconds for Hide to come back and I'm already swimming in the group, my target chosen and I'm sitting next to the guy with my finger on the AS button. The instant I see the Brute turn the corner, AS is going. Before he's even hit his first foe, AS has already landed and I'm popping Reconstruction or an inspiration to shave off any extra damage Demoralize let slip through. By the time the rest of the group catches up, I've already defeated *my* target and moving on to the next one.

Although I rarely play in the 45-50 lvls (mainly because its slower progress and the stories aren't much better), I do play in the 35-45 lvls almost exclusively and I have to say, I cannot remember being on a team where the enemies dropped too fast to do my thing or I wasn't able to circumvent that with the above tactic. If it ever did happen in the years I've been playing, it was so rare and only the span of 1 easy mission, that it was easily forgotten.

I honestly don't know *WHAT* kind of assassin's these people are trying to be...expecting the enemies to just fall on their swords/fists. Or hitting and running outside of soloing annoying targets (2 Daemon Lords to deal with is annoying)...I honestly am fed up with the whole argument. This isn't a 'lrn 2 ply' post, this is an 'If you're going to complain about something, complain about something that matters!' post.

/rant

So, this touches upon a rather minor point I would like to raise. Consistently, the hypothetical mob of mobs being assaulted assumes everyone starts from go.

In my experience, there is only one such mob on any given map where everyone has a strong probability of attacking with coordination: The first. After that, it's more like a rotation thing. People are attacking mobs, as things die, some move forwards, some stay behind to finish off the stragglers, and then join up with the people attacking the next group, rinse, repeat. So, if a Stalker's got an inherent that makes him a bloody ninja when he wants terribly to be, what's to stop him from leaving just a little bit earlier? Does that last Bronze Strongman really need three people wailing on it? That Crey Rent-A-Cop? Yeah, were it me, I'd feel a bit patronized that other members of my team thought I couldn't handle it on my own. Just sayin'.

Anyway, so, my point is, it's not necessarily a three-second slog from the moment someone yells 'Go!'. There are ways to set an AS up so it lands in a timely manner.

Might that require a bit of technique, knowledge, and experience? Why, yes, it would. And some skill and finesse, too.

See what I did there?

You go right ahead and queue up your AS.

I'd much rather throw spines or Lightning Rod.

And on Mars, the price of Milk is $2.75. Plus tax.

Yeah. You know what else it would be like? It'd be like if Scrappers had only one AOE power and while it was a really really awesome AOE power, they have to be scrapperlocked for it to critical.

In all seriousness, Scrappers get two AoE powers in most of their primaries, and some even in their secondaries in the form of damage toggles. Shield scrappers get a mini-AoE nuke in the form of Shield Charge. Essentially, they don't get something like demoralize because they can utilize AOE damage all. the. frickin. time.

Demoralize isn't something Stalkers got that's extra that other melee archetypes don't get - it's something they got to balance the fact that their single best way to use their inherent and control their criticals comes through the use of AS and Placate.

Please. Who else would it be directed at if not for me? ... aaaaand maybe Test Rat. It's okay. It's a good rant.

I even agreed with it for the most part.

Yes, I believe everyone here is aware that there is more than just Assassin's Strike in the primary. Is it too damned much to ask that we leave the random damage to the frickin scrappers? And is it possible to ask for changes along the lines of controlled criticals and burst damage without being accused of only using one bloody power from our primary?!

And how is asking for changes to improve AS going to take away from using the rest of your primary? You'll still be able to scrap it out all you want, so what is it that you're seeing that you'll have to give up if a second or two were shaved off of AS's animation or - if that's just not going to happen - some other suggestion along the lines of controlled burst damage were made?

I'm asking for changes to AS's activation for one reason: pragmatism. If a stalker's main source of controlled burst damage is meant to come from AS/Placate alone, then I'm content to try and make them more than situationally useful. I'm not trying to force anyone into the role of using AS as a crutch; I'm trying to open up the option of being able to relieably use AS more than once in a single battle.

Alright, so if you can see that the cast of placate and AS could be reduced by some reasonable amount, and agree that stalkers could use a little (key word: little) help then why in holy hell are you ranting?

DOUBLE HA!

Couldn't resist. I'm corny like that.

You're not the only one who's fed up. We're not even arguing the same thing.

I'm saying I'd like to see future changes focus not specifically on AS, but on burst damage, and I'm using AS's (admittedly not huge) shortcomings to illustrate the need. All you appear to be hearing is NERDRAGE!!!!11!!!!AS SUX I don't want to scrap I want to AS ALL THE FRAKKIN TIMEA!!!!!!1111!!!

Can we land somewhere in the middle, here? If you're willing to admit that stalkers could use some help, and you're willing to concede that AS and Placate are at least somewhat important to a stalker's inherent and role and are at least somewhat more situational in teams than is necessary, then what would you suggest? Anything?

If it's alright with you, I'd like to be able to discuss reasonable changes to an archetype with which I have at least some experience without being called an unskilled noob. Regardless of how much I've been trying to point out the flaws in the AS/Placate mechanic on teams, I am capable of setting that combination up.


Yes, it's possible to set up an AS before the rest of the team gets to the spawn. It's also possible that yet one more person on the team was scrapperlocked and followed you right into that spawn and prematurely aggroed it, robbing you of the initiative.

It's equally possible that - even though with practice anyone can set up a successful AS on a team - they might just decide that it's not necessary when they can scrap it out. It's also entirely possible that many of these same people will see that other archetypes can scrap it out longer and more effectively and give up on their stalkers in favor of that other archetype.

Dominators could still achieve domination and get high levels of damage before the changes to their archetype. Tankers could still achieve reasonably high levels of damage before bruising. Skilled Kheldians could still function in high mez situations without the ability to use Dwarf Form as a break free.

The fact that some people who played each of those archetypes thought it might be a good idea to make it a little easier to achieve these things didn't make them unskilled players, either.

No....how the heck do you get that as the reason Stalkers got Demoralize?!?

No, Demoralize was added to Assassin's Strike for the very reason you guys are rallying for change: It was a boon to team play. It was either Demoralize or Scaling AS which let Stalkers solo GMs easily.

Where I'm keeling over is, you guys are practically complaining that Stalkers get nothing on teams when they do, provide nothing on a team when they can, struggle with their use and yet do not attempt to revise your strategy and instead seem to seek out situations and teams where any extra teammate is not needed.


If you think Stalkers get crap AoE now, any AoEs they'll get or ever get would be horribly nerfed if Stalkers simply controlled their crits all the time (either that, or we'll hear complaints how much more tedious and slow Stalkers are because, to get any benefit from them you'd have to pick around their mechanics even more to get good effect).

People complained not only that Stalkers were defensively and offensively weak, but that they were clunky and difficult to use. The random criticals was to make them offensively stronger and easier to use.

And it's not like 'frikken random damage' replaced the control Stalkers got. It was *ADDED*. So any complaints about adding Scrapper's inherent to Stalkers is looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Just to clarify, Stalker's source of controlled burst comes from Hide and Placate. The 'control' to 'burst' is tied into those powers, not AS. Shortening AS's animation won't suddenly make your burst damage stronger or more controlled without the use of Placate or waiting for Hide. It'll increase your DPS, yes, but that's not what you're complaining about, is it?

I told you my rant wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. My main complaint is that, apparently, fighting in melee without constantly resorting to AS makes us 'weak Scrappers'. I've heard it all before, not just here or not even by you. If you want to take it as me regarding you as a NERDRAGE'er, that's your prerogative. A stalker is a stalker and what makes it different from other melees is its priorities and approach.

As for what I think would help Stalkers, go look at the 'So...Stalkers' thread. The last few pages, I made a post stating the direction I think Stalkers could go. Granted, I hadn't put numbers and weeks of planning behind them, I don't think Stalkers need a huge overhaul. But sinking *more* resources into making AS *the* trick pony of Stalkers rather than *one* tactic among many is painting Stalkers into a corner that you're apparently not seeing yourself do. Heck, the main complaint about Stalkers is how it relies so heavily on ST damage...and yet, that's your solution...make it do ST damage more.

Is that honestly where we're left to?