I think a lot of AIs, certainly on the Primal Earth of Paragon (Unsure in Praetoria, less likely) already DO have their own rights. Look at Citadel and Luminary; both AIs, both prominent members of the Phalanx and very much not limited or coming second place in rights or recognition.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I think a lot of AIs, certainly on the Primal Earth of Paragon (Unsure in Praetoria, less likely) already DO have their own rights. Look at Citadel and Luminary; both AIs, both prominent members of the Phalanx and very much not limited or coming second place in rights or recognition.
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And yet we are no penalized at all for the ways in which the robot NPC's die. I mean if they had similar rights to humans, wouldn't we arrest them like we do with humans?
Rather than have them explode in cool ways?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
That, and it is notable that the PPD starts using robots when it "Becomes too dangerous to employ humans." And the drones we fight thusly are very clearly all equipped with one form or another of intelligence, even if only for combat.
That said, "What Measure in a Non-Human" still seems to be present. You need to squint, but it's there.
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Not necessarily. Case in point: Tarantulas. They've got humans inside (horribly mutilated humans, but still), yet we have them explode in cool ways rather than arresting them. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
And yet we are no penalized at all for the ways in which the robot NPC's die. I mean if they had similar rights to humans, wouldn't we arrest them like we do with humans?
Rather than have them explode in cool ways? |
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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^ This.|
Originally Posted by DeviousMe
Not necessarily. Case in point: Tarantulas. They've got humans inside (horribly mutilated humans, but still), yet we have them explode in cool ways rather than arresting them.
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It's easier to repair a robot than a human. Its that simple.
In the same way that, when it gets too dangerous for the PPD, who do they call? Thats right, Super Heroes. Robotic or not. Scaling response to a situation.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That would fall under the tropes dealing with cyborgs that don't 'look' human no?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
^ This.
It's easier to repair a robot than a human. Its that simple. In the same way that, when it gets too dangerous for the PPD, who do they call? Thats right, Super Heroes. Robotic or not. Scaling response to a situation. |
A.K.A it's not murder/manslaughter to blow up the evil, spider women cyborgs (or at least not a whole man slaughter <badum tish>) because they fall under the goon or monster status of henchmen.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
From my delving into the archives it seems that highly complex fully 'Artifical lfieforms' you know the kind of free will posessing sentiant thought capable AI's in robotic shells are apparently treated as human beings, while 'dumb' none free thinking 'goonbots' are just treated as machinary.
I wonder how you prove it one way or the other, or is it just a case of "if you have to ask..."
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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One could argue the same for the mutants in Marvel's comics during the 80s. They grew so prolific and established that we, as readers, may have wondered if the discrimination really was all that bad anymore.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I think a lot of AIs, certainly on the Primal Earth of Paragon (Unsure in Praetoria, less likely) already DO have their own rights. Look at Citadel and Luminary; both AIs, both prominent members of the Phalanx and very much not limited or coming second place in rights or recognition.
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I agree it's pretty clear that Paragon's Earth has so many massive changes happening to it, new superheroes arising daily, invasion from other universes every week, whole technologies being invented by supergeniuses every year. It's wonder how the city or the country stays stable in the face off all that massive change. Sort of makes the prospect of artificial life and consciousness small beer.
So maybe the danger against discrimination or repression isn't all that much.
I'm cool with that. I'm really just search for an excuse to explain why such a group with those entrance requirements would form. If you kind folks could think of some good ones, I'll go with your ideas instead. I'm totally open to suggestions.
This is a brainstorming thread.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
I actually made this a large part of Sylpheeds backstory. The company whose resources that were used to build her were bought out by crey, who decided they wanted their "property" back.
Cue one huge court case and a lot of fighting off goons later, and she's got recognised citizenship and self-determination.
Crey still don't like it though.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I assume they do. Some robots might have self-destructs that they voluntarily (Or involuntarily) have installed in them to prevent interrogation.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
And yet we are no penalized at all for the ways in which the robot NPC's die. I mean if they had similar rights to humans, wouldn't we arrest them like we do with humans?
Rather than have them explode in cool ways? |
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Originally Posted by Paradigm_Shift
That, and it is notable that the PPD starts using robots when it "Becomes too dangerous to employ humans." And the drones we fight thusly are very clearly all equipped with one form or another of intelligence, even if only for combat.
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But I think I take your point. The laws might still be in flux. Just because some supers have AL teammates like Citadel, doesn't necessarily mean that the Federal, state or local laws have caught up to all this change yet.
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Originally Posted by DeviousMe
Not necessarily. Case in point: Tarantulas. They've got humans inside (horribly mutilated humans, but still), yet we have them explode in cool ways rather than arresting them.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's easier to repair a robot than a human. Its that simple.
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But whatever, I'm just brainstorming reasons why such a group would form in the background of Paragon's history.
Is the law clear on the rights and responsibilities of artificial lifeforms with sapience or is it still in flux?
Or can we think up another reason?
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
Perhaps there's an event that calls into question the stability of Artificial Heroes, like a large scale computer virus/P.L.O.T. Device. Regardless of whether a hero is infected or not, trust was lost and maybe Legislation was penned.
A study is being done in Paragon city concering their artificial human laws as a basis for other municipalities or states and part of the study is Pressing a large number of AL heroes against the system to see how it handles stresses.
The group is born out of a Artificial Heroes Anonymous Meeting.
A lobby group insists that the Three Laws are unconstitutional for sentient constructs and creates groups that remove such restrictions.
That's all for off the top of my head. Maybe if I sleep on it.
Infinity
Sam Varden 50 MA/Reg Scrap
Doomtastic 50 SS/Inv Brute
Ceus 50 Eng/Kin Corr
Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
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Or maybe the reverse. An event that strengthens the religious perspective. Something that surpasses the pantheon of 'deities' and extra-dimensional boundaries. The effects don't have to be legality issues but perhaps more along the moral sense along the lines of separate-but-equal racial issues and non-heterosexual marriage rights.|
Originally Posted by Kasoh
Perhaps there's an event that calls into question the stability of Artificial Heroes
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But that's a rather complicated angle as you'll have to be clever working with anything 'religious' in tone.
If your talking about robotic Toons in Paragon city, there is a very simple in game measure of their legal status and rights, do they have a hero licence issued to them.
If so then they are treated as beings able to meet the requirments of a Hero. Just like any earth born human or mutant or alien or dimmensional visitor or spirit or what ever point of creation the Toon has.
Now taking it as a given that a Hero has both rights and responcabilities, it creates a starting point for the seeking of further rights and recognition of status and so on ..
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Maintenance costs.|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
I'm cool with that. I'm really just search for an excuse to explain why such a group with those entrance requirements would form. If you kind folks could think of some good ones, I'll go with your ideas instead. I'm totally open to suggestions.
This is a brainstorming thread. |
Even the classic multi-millionaire hero struggles to fund the kind of regular maintenance in extremely exotic (if not utterly custom built) materials and components required.
Considering what it costs police departments in the real world just to keep one helicopter running, even though helicopters are common, mass-produced, and miles behind of the 'bleeding edge' of technology, you have to estimate that the ultra-tech of super-robots, cyborgs, etc must run into the millions of dollars per day.
Just obtaining impervium, the rarest and strongest metal known, must be almost impossible, never mind the expense. The costs to work it are probably even higher. And that's probably the cheapest and easiest part of any robot or cyborg. Neuro-circuitry, nano-tech, positronic brain matrices, must run into billions to develop, and are not something you are going to find spares for in Radio Shack. Everything custom made to incredible specifications.
A lone cyborg is going to be scraping along watching parts failing and in need of incredibly expensive specialist maintenance unless they have a dedicated team of technicians, engineers, and suppliers.
A good robot/cyborg is probably a little like a F1 car - needs an entire team behind it, tracking the telemetry and performances, squeezing the utmost from every component to the extent that anything could be far beyond its safe tolerances, and liable to blow, break, or wear out without much notice.
Grouping together, such robots and cyborgs could share the costs of specialist parts production, possibly even 'standardising' a few parts among themselves bringing the costs to each massively down. Sharing resources, including the topmost robotics specialists, would be a major reason for such a group to form.
http://www.savecoh.com/
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Yes, there are probably lots of origin stories like Sylpheed's. Do we ignore these and say it's a settled matter? I'm inclined to believe that laws are still unclear and it's moving forward on a case by case basis.|
Originally Posted by Gideon
I actually made this a large part of Sylpheeds backstory. The company whose resources that were used to build her were bought out by crey, who decided they wanted their "property" back.
Cue one huge court case and a lot of fighting off goons later, and she's got recognised citizenship and self-determination. Crey still don't like it though. |
On the other hand--
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
If your talking about robotic Toons in Paragon city, there is a very simple in game measure of their legal status and rights, do they have a hero licence issued to them.
If so then they are treated as beings able to meet the requirments of a Hero. Just like any earth born human or mutant or alien or dimmensional visitor or spirit or what ever point of creation the Toon has. Now taking it as a given that a Hero has both rights and responcabilities, it creates a starting point for the seeking of further rights and recognition of status and so on .. |
Filling in the registration card after starting your new character, is merely a game formality and can be ignored if it doesn't really fit with your conception. You could metagame it and say, that your character isn't officially registered with the PPD or in Recluse's database or something.
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Originally Posted by Kasoh
Perhaps there's an event that calls into question the stability of Artificial Heroes, like a large scale computer virus/P.L.O.T. Device. Regardless of whether a hero is infected or not, trust was lost and maybe Legislation was penned.
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And hardly a day goes by without some robot monster from the Rogue Isles showing up to rob banks, slaughter people and run wild in the streets. There might be powerful legal pressure to strongly regulate artificial life in the US and especially Paragon City because of this.
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Originally Posted by Kasoh
A study is being done in Paragon city concering their artificial human laws as a basis for other municipalities or states and part of the study is Pressing a large number of AL heroes against the system to see how it handles stresses.
The group is born out of a Artificial Heroes Anonymous Meeting. A lobby group insists that the Three Laws are unconstitutional for sentient constructs and creates groups that remove such restrictions. That's all for off the top of my head. Maybe if I sleep on it. |
But thing about Paragon City (and the CoX background in general.) is that new heroes with astounding abilities emerge constantly. Some of these heroes are from advanced extraterrestrial societies, some are superhuman geniuses who can build whole new technologies with a month's skull sweat.
This is happening constantly, I think it's very unlikely the legal apparatus is keeping up with all this radical change.
Citadel might be a hero respected and trusted by the ordinary folks of Paragon. But as we well know in the real world people can easily believe mutually contradictory things without batting an eye. These same folks can easily internalize contradiction and say, "Citadel's okay but I just don't trust these durn robots! Clockwork killed my brother 3 years ago. They have to get them off the streets and put them back in the factories building cars for us!"
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Or maybe the reverse. An event that strengthens the religious perspective. Something that surpasses the pantheon of 'deities' and extra-dimensional boundaries. The effects don't have to be legality issues but perhaps more along the moral sense along the lines of separate-but-equal racial issues and non-heterosexual marriage rights.
But that's a rather complicated angle as you'll have to be clever working with anything 'religious' in tone. |
The point is all these powerful beings, whose very existence promises radical change for society, are emerging constantly so everything is kind of up for grabs. Any one of these changes, the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence and civilizations, the discovery of alternate histories, the rise of true AI, the emergence of powerful biotechnology would give us radical social change.
But all of these and other changes are all happening at once in Paragon. It's a wonder that things haven't collapsed into total anarchy yet.
So maybe I have a free hand to stick with my original premise?
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
Factor in also the fear most of humanity has over Artificial Intelligence. Even in today's real-world, computers are smarter than us and more capable than us. Would government truly accept to share human rights with Artificial Intelligence, or grant them equal status? I don't know. That's where your imagination comes in and is the beauty of science fiction. I like your idea. Let the AI's go fight for the rights to live! I know my main hero, a Christian, would object to machine gaining power equal to or over man. He makes it his job to go about finding and 'taking care' of these types of 'monsters' among others. Now the machines want to add morality conflicts to his conscience? Yeah, he would be a good adversary for this AI-centric SG.
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Considering none of the other living Arachnos troops explode when defeated, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no, that sure ain't voluntary.|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
Again, is that a voluntary self-destruct? Or is it something else?
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Originally Posted by synthozoic
So maybe I have a free hand to stick with my original premise?
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Originally Posted by Pious
Would government truly accept to share human rights with Artificial Intelligence, or grant them equal status? I don't know.
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"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
Tarantulas. Smack 'em all over until they fall down or blow up. *nods*
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This is a clever idea! It gives a reason for the group to exist and mostly sidesteps the legal and sophont rights issues. |
Originally Posted by Ammon
Grouping together, such robots and cyborgs could share the costs of specialist parts production, possibly even 'standardising' a few parts among themselves bringing the costs to each massively down. Sharing resources, including the topmost robotics specialists, would be a major reason for such a group to form.
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Often the origin stories for most robotic and bio-engineered supercritters is that they are unique. They are not mass produced so, you're right, there wouldn't be a lot of easy to obtain spare parts around. It can easily be extended to the biological constructs too. Such creatures might need hard to find chemicals to thrive like arsenic rich compounds or right or left handed protein constructed with amino acids outside the 20 or so that used by Earth life.
I'll include this as a reason for the group to exist. Thanks for the idea!
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Originally Posted by DeviousMe
So long as you don't try and supersede the premises of others in this regard, of course you do. That's part of the creative process in this game.
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Originally Posted by Pious
Factor in also the fear most of humanity has over Artificial Intelligence. Even in today's real-world, computers are smarter than us and more capable than us. Would government truly accept to share human rights with Artificial Intelligence, or grant them equal status? I don't know. That's where your imagination comes in and is the beauty of science fiction. I like your idea. Let the AI's go fight for the rights to live! I know my main hero, a Christian, would object to machine gaining power equal to or over man. He makes it his job to go about dismantling rogue machines! Now the machines want to add morality conflicts to his conscious? Yeah, he would be a good adversary for this AI-centric SG.
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The group could ultimately split into two groups. One, the more heroic group, that believes that emergent and artificial life should be equal, that diversity is good and that neither should rule over or wipe out the other. And the other, more villainous one, that is plainly a supremacist group believing that since artificial life can evolve and progress much faster than emergent life, it should rule over or wipe out the old order--it's only evolution in action.
This schism would arise over some key event and that could give us the overall plot to the story. Perhaps there could be some point where one faction wants to stop the Clockwork from doing something, while the other views that as oppression.
Additionally, on the subject of superhuman intelligence, there is actual game mechanics to consider here. Since we are all human players in an MMORPG, we really can't play superhumans that are as godlike as Superman, the Silver Surfer, or the Spectre. Level 50s are extremely tough and can eat armies of lower level opponents without breaking a sweat but the game rules put upper limits on what's possible.
Superhuman intelligence, aside from writer's fiat, really can't be represented in such an environment. The behavior of such a creature might simply be impossible to understand or interpret at most times. So I think we can safely ignore this.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
For the longest time, it seemed that the bad guys had more respect for Artificial Intelligence than heroes and official authority. I mean, how many radio missions have you done where the named boss of the Council or Sky Raiders or Arachnos happened to be a robot or a cyborg?
I really liked the Rogue Robots storyline because that was the first "All robot" bad guy group we got to fight. (I don't count Clockwork because they are led by the Clockwork King who has an organic mind.)
And remember, Luminary was made by Positron as a wedding present!
And there's the 30s Technology Store Contact Mark IV. He's obviously a sentient being yet the law seems to have no trouble with Crey trying to hunt him down and reclaim their "property."
I think you can easily play AI characters as facing prejudice and discrimination in Paragon. The public may let them fight for them and arrest the baddies, but they may not think they deserve the right to vote, own property, or marry.
I like this idea. There are so many ways you could play this.
For instance, I had an AE Arc about the Rogue Robots returning, and one of the characters was a Mekman named Otto Maddox who wound up fighting alongside the hero to rescue the human woman he had fallen in love with.
At the end of the Arc, you find out that she knew he was a robot and still wanted to marry him.
They'd definitely fit into this sort of RP I think. 
Anyone remember the names of the African American heroes who opposed being drafted by the government to be used as super powered agents? I could see one of them working with the group as a civil rights advocate.
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
So I'm looking over the threads here and while they are all very interesting in their own way, there's just something that I want that's missing.
I want to start a plot based around the formation of a new supergroup composed of robots, cyborgs, bio-engineered creatures and even magical constructs. The main purpose of the group isn't only to fight crime, stop natural disasters or fight off planet threatening events. Those tasks are secondary and are really for public relations. The main purpose of the group is stand for advocacy of rights for artificial creatures, creatures that are made, not born.
Think of it as sort of like Professor X's attempts to organize Marvel's mutants for self-defense and to guide them towards purposes for the good of all humanity. This group wouldn't be secretive like Xavier's group is though.
Players with characters wanting to join this thread don't have to restrict themselves to robots because artificial organisms could be biotech ones or they could be magical homunculi, golems, etc. They can also accept hybrid creatures that are a mixture of natural and artificial, like cyborgs. Finally, the group would also be open to organic/emergent lifeforms (Supers that are not robots or constructs in other words.) provided they were favorable to idea of rights and legal recognition for artificial life.
This would not really be an open thread because there criteria to be met before your character can join the group. Also I'd like to keep the thread rather strictly plotted with a strong sense of chronology and story teller control over some events. This would not be as freeform as some of the threads here.
I don't yet have a fully firm plot in place beyond the formation event and a possible schism in the group later down the road. I need to generate some conflicts and antagonist forces and the usual plot hooks but this is mostly a balloon to see people's interest in the idea.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."