This is just me.
We play the game to have fun, We mess with the art that ties into the game for fun. We run games and contests in the game and on the forums for fun.
So if having a major art contset is fun for you and worth wild, why not, those who don't like them or don't find them fun don't have to enter.
The rest of us will enter and have fun with it i'm sure. ( not me b/c i can't draw 1/2 as good as most of what i see)
My 2 cents hope it helps.
Agent Goat - CoX Global @Goat's
Contests are good for aspiring artists, it gives them chance to flex their muscles and encourages them to do their best. For working artists it sucks. They can spend a lot of time and effort and come up with zero payoff.
Recently there was a contest on DA that netted over 100 pieces of unique art, broken down the artist payed something like $2.50 per piece. For the winners it was a good deal as they got payed at least $25 for their work. Everyone else got squat. For all those people that got squat, what are the odds that they do another contest for the person? what are the odds they'll even accept a commission from the person? Consider that all the people that lost may now feel that you think their artwork isn't good enough for that person.
Good way to get art, though you may regret it in the future.
Roxy On DA...Finally!
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Well the vision is that it would mainly be on DA (but of course open to everyone) so not everyone would be a player of the game...|
Originally Posted by Lord_Goat
The rest of us will enter and have fun with it i'm sure. ( not me b/c i can't draw 1/2 as good as most of what i see)
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But as far as how good anyone's art is... Some of my personal favorite pieces are from artists who probably would not fall in many (if any) "elite" lists... Technical skill is important, but so is vision, idea, concept etc...
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Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
Contests are good for aspiring artists, it gives them chance to flex their muscles and encourages them to do their best. For working artists it sucks. They can spend a lot of time and effort and come up with zero payoff.
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Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
Recently there was a contest on DA that netted over 100 pieces of unique art, broken down the artist payed something like $2.50 per piece. For the winners it was a good deal as they got payed at least $25 for their work. Everyone else got squat. For all those people that got squat, what are the odds that they do another contest for the person? what are the odds they'll even accept a commission from the person? Consider that all the people that lost may now feel that you think their artwork isn't good enough for that person.
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As for someone who would refuse to do a commission for someone just because they lost in their contest... Doesn't really sound like someone I would want to work with anyway. Sure, there is generally some who feel their work was best and they got cheated but I think most know a contest is a gamble and unless the winners are obviously subpar, the decisions were made on differnt criteria than announced, or there is obvious collusion then I think most are good sports....[/QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
Good way to get art, though you may regret it in the future.
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I'm curios as to just how many people would be that put off by losing though... I think the first big contest I ever took note of was that Shwann guys from DA and he's done at least one more since then and still seems to get plenty of entrants and new commissions... Hmmmmmm.
I've run a couple of contests and enjoyed them a lot. Got some art, and paid out some... stuff. As long as the rules are clearly set out ahead of time, it shouldn't be too tiring.
It's funny because I was thinking along similar lines as the questioning folks. I beleive TA received like 71 entries. Of basically free art. He's giving out prizes but only to a very few. So in the end why wouldn't/couldn't a budding collector just throw a contest and bam for minimal costs/effort he receives bunches of art, and in the end he "pays" for the ones he likes.
I think artists would get pretty bored with that if it started happening often. I know DA is a huge place though and there may be enough artists that would just like to get their names out there. It could help spring board some commissions for them as well. It could also help new artists have the courage to show their art. Or like my son, give him a chance to focus on a subject and see what others do with that same subject.
So it's one of those situations where it could totally be useful but could also become abused pretty easily. Good luck either way Caem!
I realize this totally didn't help you at all...
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Once so many entries started coming in, that's all I could see, as well. I know TA didn't start the contest only so he could get an entire gallery's worth of art for the price of one piece... but this obviously would be attractive to others. I don't think that sort of thing is beneficial to artists or collectors.|
Originally Posted by PowerStream
It's funny because I was thinking along similar lines as the questioning folks. I beleive TA received like 71 entries. Of basically free art. He's giving out prizes but only to a very few. So in the end why wouldn't/couldn't a budding collector just throw a contest and bam for minimal costs/effort he receives bunches of art, and in the end he "pays" for the ones he likes.
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As far as encouraging budding artists, I think saying that a contest for cash helps is WAY off the mark. Where's the learning experience? Is every entrant going to get back a detailed analysis of their strengths and weaknesses? Or worse... are they going to instead try to start doing commissions when they really shouldn't to get the cash instead?
I kind of see this as falling into a concurrent problem of seeing throwing money at people as an encouragement, when its not. Doing commissions is not what's going to help a young artist improve. I love doing my commissions and art for other people in general. I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of making clients happy. But when did I VASTLY improve? Not during times when I did a lot of commissions... it was when I was IN CLASS. Did I go to school because I had gotten commission work? Absolutely not. I went because I went half blind (strange as that sounds) and then realized that art is all that gives me peace. And this is the way for most artists, as I've heard the same things from nearly all my professors and other classmates. People who were honor students in things like chemistry and psychology. But art chose them, and that's where they went. When its not about the money, THAT'S when you get to learn. Encouraging people to grab at funds before they're able is bad for everyone.
So sure, contests can certainly help budding artists... if they're for a challenge and not for the cash. Then maybe they can try new things and get feedback.
I think TA is a bit of a special case, and his latest contest is also a special case. TA makes a lot of effort to advertise a lot of artists, so it's reasonable that some might be grateful; others might see further advertising opportunities. Some might even chase the prize. I think that's a bigger pull with Schwann contests.
But this contest scored a heck of a lot more entries than he expected (I think I read that someplace, in the torrent of awesome arts). The prizes dilute a bit as a result, but I don't think that was ever his intention. TA might even find more creative ways to reward/promote these artists.
More conventional contest-runners with fewer dA contacts just need a cool theme and/or prizes and an appropriate deadline, and see what sticks. I assume. Get too much art for your conscience? Add some prizes. Got not enough? Hopefully you still had fun. If it's a chore to run, don't do it.
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Personally not a fan of 'draw me!' contests as it always seems to me the idea of someone capitalizing on their name or reputation to score as much free art as possible. If its to support practicing artists, make one of your characters always free to draw, I have set Kai up that way with her own gallery and description that says so and I know others have as well. If its to evaluate possible commissions, look at past work, or pay for a sketch and decide if you want to take it further.
That said, not all art contests are bad, the FArt thing is very fun to watch and I have participated in a Potluck Art contest, and would have no problem supporting that again.
(Have been informed this is not a common thing and needs explanation - Basically the organizer sets a number of max slots, willing subjects pay in a certain amount for one slot by a due date, and artists pay in a much lower rate, like 1/3 or 1/5 per slot(usually 2 or 3 max), and the organizer draws subjects for the artists to draw. In due time, art is produced. Any subjects whose artist flaked get their buy in back, the rest of the subjects and the organizer vote on the collective art, and the money pool is payed out to a 1st/2nd/3rd or if the organizer had different categories (best use of color, best pose, etc). So hypothetically, 20 slots @ 15/subject, 5/artist nets 700 to pay out in prizes)
Yeah I think a contest by TA isn't the same as a contest by ... lets say ... me.
Entering a TA contest gets you free "radio publicity" even if you don't win ... where as entering mine would get you free ... "small town city hall pamphlet" publicity ... which means basically not much.
So entering TA's contest still gave artists a guarantee of some exposure even if they didn't win. Plus as mentionned before, it may be a thank you note for stuff he has done for them and if there are few contests running at this time ... then it could just be fun.
To that you can add a question of timing (i.e. when school's recently out is better than the Christmas holidays).
A large enough prize should draw in a crowd (see what I did there 
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I saw in one contest, the organizer offering to draw 5 out of the non-winning worthy contestants and give them an amount worthy of the work they had put in. He was actually asking how much the pieces were worth when they were submitted. I does show some consideration for the time spent on those pieces but yeah ... it must make managing the contest much more of a headache and it raises the potential drama to a whole other level.
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I think a lot of good points were brought up in this thread that I hadn't though about, in particular Wassy's post.
I don't know that I have anything new to add, but my initial thought when I see that someone is running a "Draw Me!" contest, as someone put it, is "what a cheapskate" and I often wonder why anyone would enter in such a contest. Granted this is unfair assessment as I often know nothing about these people and maybe they have higher motives. And really, if the artists want to enter such a contest, it's their prerogative.
That said, I think TA's contest was a unique example due to the extensive time he has put into supporting and promoting numerous artists. Thus, in addition to the prize money, as others have commented, entering the contest also provides the entrants with exposure. I think to believe that any contest would have the same turnout in quality and quantity as TA's contest is very misguided.
Seeing as most of us can't offer the same sort of benefits and don't have the same sort of relationships with the community that TA has I expect other contests to be met with more of a "Why should I bother?" attitude. But then, I'm not familiar with the Deviant Community, so if you want to hold a contest, why not! As long as artists don't feel like they are getting spammed and harassed about contests I don't really see the harm (Although Wassy does bring up interesting points). I think if I was a professional artist though, I might see such a request as an insult...but who knows.
From an anthropological perspective, I'm actually rather curious what sort of entries someone without TA's stature would receive.
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Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Hmm, getting lots of stuff to think about and reply to... which is good. I'm looking at this as a way to think out loud - Sorry if it seems like I may be trying to counter some points but it's just me trying to look at both sides of the coin.
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Yeah, to me this is a definite point that must be adhered to. This wouldn't be a little "get a free artz" amongst the little friendly community of this board but an actual contest with actual prizes... (Well, hopefully the winners of my little commission contests thought their prizes actual... But like I was thinking more moola significant...)|
Originally Posted by Juggertha
As long as the rules are clearly set out ahead of time, it shouldn't be too tiring.
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Originally Posted by PowerStream
So in the end why wouldn't/couldn't a budding collector just throw a contest and bam for minimal costs/effort he receives bunches of art, and in the end he "pays" for the ones he likes.
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Originally Posted by PowerStream
I think artists would get pretty bored with that if it started happening often. I know DA is a huge place though and there may be enough artists that would just like to get their names out there. It could help spring board some commissions for them as well. It could also help new artists have the courage to show their art. Or like my son, give him a chance to focus on a subject and see what others do with that same subject.
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So I had already planned on waiting a month at least for TA's to simmer down... And while DA may be huge, I think quite a lot of those on there we're likely to reach and have a chance to het interested overlap... I'd personally look for ways to reach non-comic book type artists as I LOVE seeing my chars in other styles but I also think they'd be harder to get to enter. *shruG*
I do think it's sometimes easier for new artists to get their feet wet this way sometimes... Maybe figuring if they suck they'll get lost in the crowd, or some the opposite and using the bar set by those established to try to push themselves to that level and see where they are. But different things motivate different people so it is hard to say for sure...
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Originally Posted by PowerStream
So it's one of those situations where it could totally be useful but could also become abused pretty easily. Good luck either way Caem!
I realize this totally didn't help you at all... |
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Originally Posted by Wassy
Once so many entries started coming in, that's all I could see, as well. I know TA didn't start the contest only so he could get an entire gallery's worth of art for the price of one piece... but this obviously would be attractive to others. I don't think that sort of thing is beneficial to artists or collectors.
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Originally Posted by Wassy
As far as encouraging budding artists, I think saying that a contest for cash helps is WAY off the mark. Where's the learning experience? Is every entrant going to get back a detailed analysis of their strengths and weaknesses? Or worse... are they going to instead try to start doing commissions when they really shouldn't to get the cash instead?
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And yeah, I wouldn't be giving back detailed analysis of each work but I'm hardly the one anyone would want a detailed analysis from.
I know what I like and little else. As for people jumping the figurative gun and trying to open for commissions before they're really at that level? Sorry, but I'm not taking on the role of big brother here. I certainly cannot be the one to tell people when they shouldn't be trying that or not.
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Originally Posted by Wassy
I kind of see this as falling into a concurrent problem of seeing throwing money at people as an encouragement, when its not.
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Originally Posted by Wassy
Doing commissions is not what's going to help a young artist improve. I love doing my commissions and art for other people in general. I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of making clients happy. But when did I VASTLY improve? Not during times when I did a lot of commissions... it was when I was IN CLASS. Did I go to school because I had gotten commission work? Absolutely not. I went because I went half blind (strange as that sounds) and then realized that art is all that gives me peace. And this is the way for most artists, as I've heard the same things from nearly all my professors and other classmates. People who were honor students in things like chemistry and psychology. But art chose them, and that's where they went. When its not about the money, THAT'S when you get to learn. Encouraging people to grab at funds before they're able is bad for everyone.
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At the same time though, aren't there different paths for different people? Personally I find having something to compete against brings out the most talent in me, the most drive. I'm generally lazy. LAZY. If there were a lazy Olympics I wouldn't medal - I'd be too lazy to enter. However, the few times I really felt the motivation to achieve... To push myself... Was when I was competing.
In high school I did some pretty amazing arts.. But only when trying to best someone else in my class or the one time the project was for a city wide competition. Sad truth is that I let one lousy teacher and the fact the two other art students I found as worthy adversaries ended up in different art classes one year (and thus had different projects, we weren't competing) turn me off of drawing... Teachers were never able to motivate me, only what I felt was worthy competition.
Anyway... So I must argue that different paths work for different folks... (What you talkin' 'bout, Willis???) However, I do think there is a very real argument to be made about whether cash is the best reward/prize... But I honestly cannot think of a better one I would have available to offer.
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Originally Posted by Wassy
So sure, contests can certainly help budding artists... if they're for a challenge and not for the cash. Then maybe they can try new things and get feedback.
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Originally Posted by airhead
I think TA is a bit of a special case, and his latest contest is also a special case. TA makes a lot of effort to advertise a lot of artists, so it's reasonable that some might be grateful; others might see further advertising opportunities. Some might even chase the prize. I think that's a bigger pull with Schwann contests.
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Originally Posted by airhead
But this contest scored a heck of a lot more entries than he expected (I think I read that someplace, in the torrent of awesome arts). The prizes dilute a bit as a result, but I don't think that was ever his intention. TA might even find more creative ways to reward/promote these artists.
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Still, the prize didn't dilute... First second and third prizes stayed the same. Cash to entries ratio changed but that happened once the second entry came in. (I suppose it could be argued that the chance to win change... but to a certain extent that assumes the arts to be equal in quality, doesn't it?)
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Originally Posted by airhead
More conventional contest-runners with fewer dA contacts just need a cool theme and/or prizes and an appropriate deadline, and see what sticks. I assume. Get too much art for your conscience? Add some prizes. Got not enough? Hopefully you still had fun. If it's a chore to run, don't do it.
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Originally Posted by Kai
Personally not a fan of 'draw me!' contests as it always seems to me the idea of someone capitalizing on their name or reputation to score as much free art as possible. If its to support practicing artists, make one of your characters always free to draw, I have set Kai up that way with her own gallery and description that says so and I know others have as well. If its to evaluate possible commissions, look at past work, or pay for a sketch and decide if you want to take it further.
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And I wasn't aware I had a name or reputation to capitalize on... Just thought I had some capital to blow. But I must wonder just how much support artists would feel by being told they could draw my character. First off, I couldn't really stop them... Secondly, there are much more interesting and well known characters out there.
As for evaluating possible commissions... Looking at galleries is of course the best route for that. Though I would hope that if I did run a contest I would find ways to reach people I had never stumbled across before and thus be exposed to artists I might not otherwise have found...
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Originally Posted by Kai
That said, not all art contests are bad, the FArt thing is very fun to watch and I have participated in a Potluck Art contest, and would have no problem supporting that again.
(Have been informed this is not a common thing and needs explanation - Basically the organizer sets a number of max slots, willing subjects pay in a certain amount for one slot by a due date, and artists pay in a much lower rate, like 1/3 or 1/5 per slot(usually 2 or 3 max), and the organizer draws subjects for the artists to draw. In due time, art is produced. Any subjects whose artist flaked get their buy in back, the rest of the subjects and the organizer vote on the collective art, and the money pool is payed out to a 1st/2nd/3rd or if the organizer had different categories (best use of color, best pose, etc). So hypothetically, 20 slots @ 15/subject, 5/artist nets 700 to pay out in prizes) |
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Originally Posted by Thornster
Yeah I think a contest by TA isn't the same as a contest by ... lets say ... me.
Entering a TA contest gets you free "radio publicity" even if you don't win ... where as entering mine would get you free ... "small town city hall pamphlet" publicity ... which means basically not much. So entering TA's contest still gave artists a guarantee of some exposure even if they didn't win. Plus as mentionned before, it may be a thank you note for stuff he has done for them and if there are few contests running at this time ... then it could just be fun. |
(Just kidding!! Really!! But I think it's an agreed point that TA got so much because he's TA and all that entails.)Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thornster
To that you can add a question of timing (i.e. when school's recently out is better than the Christmas holidays).
A large enough prize should draw in a crowd (see what I did there ) anyway, even if you don't have all the favorable circusmtances someone like TA has. |
I figured the extra time from now that is would allow me to make the "yule log" even bigger... Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thornster
I saw in one contest, the organizer offering to draw 5 out of the non-winning worthy contestants and give them an amount worthy of the work they had put in. He was actually asking how much the pieces were worth when they were submitted. I does show some consideration for the time spent on those pieces but yeah ... it must make managing the contest much more of a headache and it raises the potential drama to a whole other level.
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EDIT 'CAUSE DRAGGYNN SNUCK IN WHILE I WAS POSTING!
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Originally Posted by Draggynn
From an anthropological perspective, I'm actually rather curious what sort of entries someone without TA's stature would receive.
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Ok, I skipped over most of your post since I do think they have been touched on before... But the one part I forgot to quote I wanted to mention was the Professional Artists may feel insulted thing - I'm not sure how others run but if I was to do this I wouldn't personally invite anyone. I'm just not that outgoing. I'd look to use boards and forum announcements and that sort of thing... But I find those requesting artists to join their contests a bit pushy and I wouldn't do that.
Anyway, on to anthropological... For a proper comparison, wouldn't you need to mimic everything but TA's stature as much as possible? I think different prizes, different characters and different guidelines would make the comparison too anecdotal to be of real scientific value
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As an engineer I've always viewed anthropology as a bit of a fuzzy science (no offense intended to anthropologists...some of my best friends are anthropologists |
Originally Posted by Caemgen
Anyway, on to anthropological... For a proper comparison, wouldn't you need to mimic everything but TA's stature as much as possible? I think different prizes, different characters and different guidelines would make the comparison too anecdotal to be of real scientific value
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) more about observing people in their habitats than generating actual experiments. I always figured when you tried to quantize behavior it became sociology
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
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Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Caemgen - You didn't specifically say these contests were good for budding artists, but it was brought up by others, which is why I addressed it.
And competition IS good. I'm obsessively competitive; just not vocal about it. Because I was unable to attend college for several years for my health reasons, I'm older than almost all my classmates, which I found horrifically intimidating. So I vowed to kick all their ***** and be the top student in any class I took to prove that a lapse in formal education wasn't going to be the end-all be-all for me. And I did.
This is why I do like challenge-based contests. Not just "Draw My Character and I'll Give You Money Maybe" contests. And anyone seriously getting into the industry with have to compete on a daily basis. I'm just saying, as far as an encouragement for people starting out goes, ladeling on money is far more detrimental than it is good.
Basically, you'll end up doing whatever it is that makes your skirt fly up. But notice how neither of our scenarios had a monetary gain. The support of inexperienced artists is going to be something that's more important to me than you simply because of circumstance. I just heard the ol' "It'll help budding artists" comment tossed around again, and I'm not sure how many non-artists realize not everything they THINK is a support is.
Not sure I'm adding anything new here (lots of good discussion already), but I did want to chime in.
I think, for one thing, its easy to forget that the world's big with gobs and gobs of different people and different viewpoints - by which I mean that you can go out and ask these questions of people and get gobs and gobs of different answers and opinions. And, really, they're all valid - for the individuals that give them. (not tryin' to be "wishy-washy" there - just trying to remind myself that *my* opinion aint everyone's)
that said:
Competition is often a good motivator for people to try and stretch beyond their norm. I've actually had instructors that made competitions out of every class assignment. (I will admit, it made *me* uncomfortable - but it fired-up many of the other students) It *does* have its downsides, in that someone "loses" - and that don't feel good.
Sometimes the motivation isn't as important - for some, whether or not there's money involved, they're just in it to be competitive. Granted, for others, it *is* the money - but, thats kinda to be expected.
If the person running the contest is *really* just trying to get lots of art for cheap or free (and I agree that thats what some of them are doing) - I think thats pretty crummy and slimy and they should be smacked. But, I know not everyone running contests are that self-serving - for some its just an inventive way of generating some interest and activity.
As artists (and, really, people in general), we're going to run into both types - those who *will* take advantage of us and those who won't. Its crummy, but yer gonna get burned sometimes in life - ya just gotta hope you can learn from the experience, learn to spot the bad ones and avoid em.
I do think there's some value to the "getting exposure" part of contests, tho - very much so in the Thor's Assassin contest, but also in many others. With the way DeviantArt is set up, the more places your art appears, the better (well, if you *want* the exposure). If I were to do a contest like that - I'd try to make every effort to showcase ALL the entries that I could, so even those who "lost" would be getting something out of it. (not sure how I'd accomplish that - but if I was gonna do it, I put some MAJOR thought into it)
and, yeah - I've also heard of those who offer "exposure for struggling young artists" in exchange for doing FREE work for their "project". I hear that happens in Hollywood a lot.
There is one sort-of related tangential thought that this discussion brings to my mind: I've read in various threads, blogs, journals - and I've heard it in person from a few people - not just artists, but some other professions as well. There's the concern that all those DA artists offering to do commissions for really very little money (like single figure dollars for a character portrait) make it tougher for others who charge significantly more to get business. I've heard "I just can't afford to sell my work that cheaply! You're killing me here!" and I can kinda understand that, to some degree.
As an artist, we're putting time and effort, skill, and (hopefully) heart into our work - and that should be worth something. Something of equal worth to to what we put in. So, I can understand when a guy (or girl) - who is trying to make a living from doing the art that they love - gets frustrated when someone turns away saying "Dude! That's too much! Why should I pay you that much, when I can just go to this other guy on DA and get my character done for five bucks??!?" (understanding that to some, the difference in "quality" of said art may or may not be a determining factor)
But, that's reality for ya, isn't it? That's always going to be there in the world and we've just gotta deal with it. There's always someone doing it for less. (well, and there's also a big difference between doing sketches for fun and "working as a professional in the industry")
Where was I again?
Caemgen, I don't know why you made this thread. It's obvious from your replies that you're already dead set on holding a contest and squeezing as much art out of people for as cheaply as possible. Just do it. Don't sit here and stubbornly counter point all the opinions that you don't agree with. They aren't stopping you from doing it.
TA didn't get that many artists into his contest because the artists wanted exposure. He got that many because he's networked really well and could advertise over a much larger area than any of us could. It's really that simple. Nobody here is TA, nobody is going to get that level of response.
Cept maybe Feral Kat. ;3
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All the ologies sort of blend together for me... *shrug*|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
As an engineer I've always viewed anthropology as a bit of a fuzzy science (no offense intended to anthropologists...some of my best friends are anthropologists
) more about observing people in their habitats than generating actual experiments. *I always figured when you tried to quantize behavior it became sociology |
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Originally Posted by Wassy
Basically, you'll end up doing whatever it is that makes your skirt fly up. *But notice how neither of our scenarios had a monetary gain. *The support of inexperienced artists is going to be something that's more important to me than you simply because of circumstance. *I just heard the ol' "It'll help budding artists" comment tossed around again, and I'm not sure how many non-artists realize not everything they THINK is a support is.
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(don't have the legs to pull it off...).
But seriously, this question of helping and support is one that's on my mind... Is that my goal? My job? Should it be? Or I'm I just an enjoyer of arts and happy with that? *I guess am I a patron of the arts or just a purchaser... *And what goes with each...
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Originally Posted by U-Naught
If the person running the contest is *really* just trying to get lots of art for cheap or free (and I agree that thats what some of them are doing) - I think thats pretty crummy and slimy and they should be smacked. *But, I know not everyone running contests are that self-serving - for some its just an inventive way of generating some interest and activity.
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Assuming equal quality (big assumption but for sake of argument...) isn't it a bit foolish not to seek the best deal? Should one feel the need to purchase individual pieces and pay more just to make sure no feelings are hurt? *And should one feel the need to purchase local arts rather than get a cheaper price from someone overseas?
How much altruism should be imbued into the collecting of arts and where should it be directed?
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| As artists (and, really, people in general), we're going to run into both types - those who *will* take advantage of us and those who won't. *Its crummy, but yer gonna get burned sometimes in life - ya just gotta hope you can learn from the experience, learn to spot the bad ones and avoid em. |
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| I do think there's some value to the "getting exposure" part of contests, tho - very much so in the Thor's Assassin contest, but also in many others. *With the way DeviantArt is set up, the more places your art appears, the better (well, if you *want* the exposure). *If I were to do a contest like that - I'd try to make every effort to showcase ALL the entries that I could, so even those who "lost" would be getting something out of it. *(not sure how I'd accomplish that - but if I was gonna do it, I put some MAJOR thought into it) |
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There is one sort-of related tangential thought that this discussion brings to my mind: I've read in various threads, blogs, journals - and I've heard it in person from a few people - not just artists, but some other professions as well. *There's the concern that all those DA artists offering to do commissions for really very little money (like single figure dollars for a character portrait) make it tougher for others who charge significantly more to get business. *I've heard "I just can't afford to sell my work that cheaply! *You're killing me here!" *and I can kinda understand that, to some degree. * As an artist, we're putting time and effort, skill, and (hopefully) heart into our work - and that should be worth something. *Something of equal worth to to what we put in. *So, I can understand when a guy (or girl) - who is trying to make a living from doing the art that they love - gets frustrated when someone turns away saying "Dude! That's too much! Why should I pay you that much, when I can just go to this other guy on DA and get my character done for five bucks??!?" *(understanding that to some, the difference in "quality" of said art may or may not be a determining factor) But, that's reality for ya, isn't it? *That's always going to be there in the world and we've just gotta deal with it. *There's always someone doing it for less. *(well, and there's also a big difference between doing sketches for fun and "working as a professional in the industry") Where was I again?
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I've not worried too much about prices in my little collecting career. I think there was maybe one person I didn't commission because I thought their price too much. I've turned away from far more artists for reasons like not even ballparking prices beforehand, for having blatently political stuff in their gallery that offended me, for having payment methods which were too annoying or for just seeming like a jerk...
But I can't help but believe that there are those who are commissioning based on price and frankly there's a lot of south American and Asian artists who are working very very cheap.*
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Originally Posted by Suichiro
Caemgen, I don't know why you made this thread.
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Sorry, I thought the title made that clear. I made this thread in order to have a discussion about art contests...
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| It's obvious from your replies that you're already dead set on holding a contest and squeezing as much art out of people for as cheaply as possible. |
Really, if I was dead set on running a contest I would have run the contest, not tried to start a discussion where people could have some back and forth on the pros and cons of such..,
If I was really dead set on running a contest I would have brushed off the voices counseling me to rethink the plan rather than listened to what they had to say and then looked for more viewpoints.
But wow, I just never realized I was all about squeezing as much art of people as cheaply as possibly. That certainly explains how ruthlessy I try to negotiate artists down from their stated prices, why I've regularly looked for ways to give art to others and why I've got one artist who doesn't even tell me how much I owe til after they've done the work. You're right, I'm altogether a right cheap *******!
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| Just do it. Don't sit here and stubbornly counter point all the opinions that you don't agree with. They aren't stopping you from doing it. |
I've always believed that with an open mind that point counter-point discussions (or debates) were much more informative and influential than one sided lectures or reading material... I believe this method forces both sides to think not only about what the other side is saying but also about their own points and beliefs. *
But you are right: They aren't stopping me.*
But they may he convincing me... I was all set to hold a contest before this thread but I am now leaning more towards not doing so... *
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TA didn't get that many artists into his contest because the artists wanted exposure. He got that many because he's networked really well and could advertise over a much larger area than any of us could. It's really that simple. Nobody here is TA, nobody is going to get that level of response. Cept maybe Feral Kat. ;3 |
Pyro - thanks for the defense but let's be realistic, it wasn't about being altruistic. *I ran the contests because they were fun to run. I hired locally because the artists were open for commissions and I liked their styles. (still waiting for some to be open but *shrug*) And while I am glad I may have exposed one or two artists previously not found by peeps here, I did that too because I wanted art from them and not just to introduce them.
I won't argue that I'm selfish... But I am not cheap. Well, not money wise, anyway
I actually don't recall that from August '09... Maybe cause I was just a newb then. Not sure if I had even found this forum then but was probably around there somewhere... Anyway, if I'd known there was a similiar thread I'd have just looked it up and reread that one
But I do think there is a logistical difference between someone with no or limited collection doing a contest and someone with a larger collection... Trust issues and such if nothing else.
As for being on your list... *WOOT!! *. *But it's looking like your have to do it on your own... I'm leaning more and more to scrapping the contest and instead using the planned prize money for a couple Scarypet commissions or something instead. I've had a huge group project in the back of my head for quite a while and perhaps it's time to pull the trigger on that
So there was a lot to read and frankly I didn't read much past your first response. To me it sounds like you've already made up your mind to go ahead and do this. Good luck.
Roxy On DA...Finally!
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I'm guessing your stance on this issue is pretty clear with the number of times you use this counterpoint. I would think if you plan to continue purchasing from the art community, that you'd be interested in practices that would make said community better, thereby increasing your ability to get good commissions. But I suppose that's altruistic crazy talk and no consumer does such wild things as look at what their money is being used for. All that time I spent researching local farms to buy food from must have been a dream, as its really only my job as a purchaser to get the most for my money. Even stranger... I found out how I could spend the same amount of money but use it towards supporting farmers with livestock-raising practices that not only are far more humane... but will get ME a tastier and healthier product. Definitely hallucinating there. Why am I not at Wal-Mart this very second?!
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
But seriously, this question of helping and support is one that's on my mind... Is that my goal? My job? Should it be? Or I'm I just an enjoyer of arts and happy with that? *I guess am I a patron of the arts or just a purchaser... *And what goes with each... Why is that crummy? *Isn't it a buyers job to get the most for their money? Is it crummier than buying bulk? |
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Sorry you haven't found this interesting enough to read more than that... But in case you look back: My mind is actually not quite made up but at this point I am pretty sure I won't be doing a contest afterall...|
Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
So there was a lot to read and frankly I didn't read much past your first response. To me it sounds like you've already made up your mind to go ahead and do this. Good luck.
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Originally Posted by Wassy
I'm guessing your stance on this issue is pretty clear with the number of times you use this counterpoint. I would think if you plan to continue purchasing from the art community, that you'd be interested in practices that would make said community better, thereby increasing your ability to get good commissions. But I suppose that's altruistic crazy talk and no consumer does such wild things as look at what their money is being used for. All that time I spent researching local farms to buy food from must have been a dream, as its really only my job as a purchaser to get the most for my money. Why am I not at Wal-Mart this very second?!
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Perhaps you thought my questions were rhetorical or sarcastic or something but they were genuine... I can see the point of it being counter productive to do something to damage the art community if one wishes to partake of what it offers in the future. Still though, that leaves questions of just which art community one needs to support, encourage and faithfully patronize. The global art community? The local (country) one? The one closest (these boards)?
You talk about buying from local farms... I personally couldn't do that since I eat 75% take out and 25% out of a can (the bachelor life for me!) but I respect you for having the convictions for doing it. Still though, isn't there some limit to it even for you? Do you buy 100% of your goods from local producers? Never eating anything out of season unless it was canned or otherwised stored for the offseason? Would you never buy an apple (or whatever) that came from outside your local area just for convienance?
Bringing that back to art, must one purchase locally (whatever we decide local is for art) if a particular style isn't available from such?
Art prices were brought up previously and how some artists complain about others selling too cheaply. As a conscientious consumer what are my responsibilities to this concern? Should I insist on paying some minimum price? Should I only patronize those charging what most feel is correct? Should I only get work from pro's who charge a grand or more so as to help raise prices for all artists?
And again, I do not mean any of this sarcastically or rhetorically. If anything I have shifted from the practicle question of contest yes or no to a more philisophical questioning of the whole commissining process and the rights, responsibilities and ethics of it...
And if I repeat a counterpoint it's not neccessarily because I hold that point and it's unchangable, just more likely that I don't think it's been really adressed or countered yet.
First, just to be clear - it wasn't my intention, Caemgen, to call you cheap - rather I was addressing the general idea of running a contest for the sole purpose of getting lots of essentially free art. (which you did mention on the initial post). Just to be clear.
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I understand that we all want to get the best bang for our money, (since we -work- to earn that money in the first place). And don't we all want to get, at the very least, fair compensation for the work that we do for others?|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
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Assuming equal quality (big assumption but for sake of argument...) isn't it a bit foolish not to seek the best deal? Should one feel the need to purchase individual pieces and pay more just to make sure no feelings are hurt? *And should one feel the need to purchase local arts rather than get a cheaper price from someone overseas? How much altruism should be imbued into the collecting of arts and where should it be directed? |
I know we don't live in a perfect world. I get the economics, I get the "Free Market" idea.
I search for the best price I can get when I go to buy something (unless there are other factors that override that, like urgent need, etc.).
I also realize that there are many artists on Deviant Art and even Here who will happily do artwork for others for free, just out of enthusiasm or friendship or whimsy.
But - if a person is throwing a "contest" with the -INTENT- of "Ha! I'll get scads of artwork, and I'll ONLY have to pay for, like, ONE piece! Cool Beans!" - doesn't that seem rather disrespectful of the artist's work, of their time and effort? I mean, if the -INTENT- there is to slide right by having to pay each artist for each individual work?
Key word: -INTENT-
Yeah, I think that's crummy.
Of course I get the concept that a contest is a contest - there will be winners and losers. If the rules, prizes, selection criteria, and benefits, etc. are spelled out up front (and not misrepresented) - the entrants should know and accept the terms when they choose to enter. And yeah, a "Draw Me" contest run by a random user on Deviant Art is not the same as a "Design our Next Billboard" contest put on by Coca-Cola.
but still, if the -INTENT- of the contest creator is to knowingly finagle free art out of a bunch of artists? Yeah, I think thats crummy.
-- That's not meant as a rant, nor as an accusation -- just a statement of my opinion on it, okay?
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I've not worried too much about prices in my little collecting career. I think there was maybe one person I didn't commission because I thought their price too much. I've turned away from far more artists for reasons like not even ballparking prices beforehand, for having blatently political stuff in their gallery that offended me, for having payment methods which were too annoying or for just seeming like a jerk... But I can't help but believe that there are those who are commissioning based on price and frankly there's a lot of south American and Asian artists who are working very very cheap.* |
Again, Deviant Art has members that range from kids posting stick-figure drawings of Pokemon to Full-on Professionals working for Marvel and DC. You're right in that "Big-Time" artists working out there in "the Industry" do have bigger things to worry over than _LittleTimmy256_ on DA doing "commissions" for a nickel. and *ANY* working artist will have to deal with finicky buyers and under-cutting competition - I get that, too.
I just thought it was of interest to the discussion.
I also know that there is a sort of "cottage industry" of artists doing game-fan-related, or comic-fan-related, or tv & movie-fan-related "commissioned" art work. Places like this board, and DA, the WOW-boards, and elsewhere are are the Places-To-Be-Seen to get your name and work out into the view of potential customers. "Free Samples" are part of the promotional game.
It *would* be nice if we lived in a world where each and every one of us human beings recognized the value of each other's work, and we all were able to give and receive fair and just compensation (in whatever form) for that work. But Reality is not Ideal - and I guess we all just do what we can.
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No worries man, I totally get what you were saying and where you were coming from. Besides, I'm certainly not taking anything here personal and mean nothing that way.|
Originally Posted by U-Naught
First, just to be clear - it wasn't my intention, Caemgen, to call you cheap - rather I was addressing the general idea of running a contest for the sole purpose of getting lots of essentially free art. (which you did mention on the initial post). Just to be clear.
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Originally Posted by U-Naught
But - if a person is throwing a "contest" with the -INTENT- of "Ha! I'll get scads of artwork, and I'll ONLY have to pay for, like, ONE piece! Cool Beans!" - doesn't that seem rather disrespectful of the artist's work, of their time and effort? I mean, if the -INTENT- there is to slide right by having to pay each artist for each individual work?
Key word: -INTENT- Yeah, I think that's crummy. |
((I suppose if I really wanted to get super philosophical I could bring up how one can never know what is in another persons head or heart but let's just not go there. lol))
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Originally Posted by U-Naught
Again, Deviant Art has members that range from kids posting stick-figure drawings of Pokemon to Full-on Professionals working for Marvel and DC. You're right in that "Big-Time" artists working out there in "the Industry" do have bigger things to worry over than _LittleTimmy256_ on DA doing "commissions" for a nickel. and *ANY* working artist will have to deal with finicky buyers and under-cutting competition - I get that, too.
I just thought it was of interest to the discussion. |
As Wassy mentioned, there are huge Buy Local movements for everything from produce to cars... As such, I am interested if people think the same way towards this kind of art and what they consider local. With produce I believe it generally has to do with a mileage range or how much a carbon footprint it takes to get to market or such, with cars it's generally a national thing... If it is there with art, what would the locality be?
Framkly if I would have seen an American or Canadian who did the same style as Jirogam (to just pick a foreign artist at random) but at twice the price... I probably would have went with them. A big part of that would have been to avoid any language issues (I've had a few problems with those) but part would also have been having "buy local" in mind...
Still, if I was thinking "local" in terms of buying art it would probably have more to do with a theoretical local than a geographic one. A "locality" based on language, hmmm... finding it tough to find the right words that won't be misconstrued or taken wrong... bleh. I gues I could just say the more similiar the culture is to my own, the more I would consider them local in this kind of area? So yeah, a part of me would rather buy from an American artist than one from Indonesia even if it cost a bit more. The problem with trying to do that with art comes into style... You tend not to easily be able to find the exact (or really close) thing that easily...
Anyway, starting to remble on this... Point is, I would definitely be interested in other peoples (and definitely artists) opinions on this whole topic...
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Originally Posted by U-Naught
It *would* be nice if we lived in a world where each and every one of us human beings recognized the value of each other's work, and we all were able to give and receive fair and just compensation (in whatever form) for that work. But Reality is not Ideal - and I guess we all just do what we can.
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I wasn't going to say anything else in the thread because my points were all "countered" with paragraphs starting with "Not to be <insert insult here>, BUT" (which of course means you're being exactly that) for me to really consider it a debate anymore, but you so completely and totally missed my point with that example that I have to step in and clarify before I'm credit with a buying local art movement that I find insane. It had nothing to do with LITERALLY BUYING LOCAL. The point was I could take the time to do some research, listen to the advice of people in the field, spend the same money, get a BETTER product, and make sure my consumer dollars worked to benefit a community/industry I like to buy from. There happens to be a lot of farms in driving distance that have what I want, but I also have gotten beef from a farm Vermont in the past because I liked their operations. |
Originally Posted by Caemgen
As Wassy mentioned, there are huge Buy Local movements for everything from produce to cars... As such, I am interested if people think the same way towards this kind of art and what they consider local. With produce I believe it generally has to do with a mileage range or how much a carbon footprint it takes to get to market or such, with cars it's generally a national thing... If it is there with art, what would the locality be?
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You hinged on this localvore thing and started splitting hairs over it and totally lost the point that it was an example where, as a consumer, the bottom line isn't your only best interest. If you want to keep getting commissions, it would also be in your best interest to spend your money and/or time in ways that will ensure you'll be able to KEEP getting commissions, ideally having even a larger choice of even better ones. I can't believe you even need to debate that.
Good God, an artist worth commissioning is an artist worth commissioning no matter where they/you are. I'm saying that money spent on contests or tantalizing inexperienced artists into doing commissions when they really shouldn't be is a poor use of funds towards the community, and there are much better ways of encouraging learning artists.
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Originally Posted by Wassy
I wasn't going to say anything else in the thread because my points were all "countered" with paragraphs starting with "Not to be <insert insult here>, BUT" (which of course means you're being exactly that) for me to really consider it a debate anymore,
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
I really hope this doesn't come off condescending or anything... But your story is really quite touching. The fact is that most people would use such a problem as an excuse, not a motivator... The fact you went the other route is really quite heroic.
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
Not to be rude Wassy but I believe your guess is wrong. I believe my stance is really still quite undecided.
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
And again, I do not mean any of this sarcastically or rhetorically. If anything I have shifted from the practicle question of contest yes or no to a more philisophical questioning of the whole commissining process and the rights, responsibilities and ethics of it...
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Originally Posted by Wassy
I wasn't going to say anything else in the thread because my points were all "countered" with paragraphs starting with "Not to be <insert insult here>, BUT" (which of course means you're being exactly that)
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With the amazing success of Thor's Assassin's contest, both in quality and quantity, it's hard not to imagine others deciding to try the same thing.
I've been considering doing an art contest over on DA since before I contracted out my first commission. Back then I looked at it as a way to maximize art for minimal monies... lately I'm less concerned about the money but think it would be fun to run and I'm intrigued to see what kind of spins I could put on it to keep it interesting and hopefully get others from this board involved...
Anyway, TA's contest all but convinced me that I had to give it a shot despite my concerns about how to reach the largest amount if people possible, how many would enter, etc... *But then I heard some other opinions. Opinions which suggested that contests weren't all they're cracked up to be.
On the plus side:
Chance of more art for the money
Chance of getting entries from new and different artists
Fun of running the event
Way to see different artists all tackling the same or similiar subjects
Cons of contests:
Chance of no or just a few entries
Chance of no quality entries
The aggregation that comes with running the event
The voices of caution brought up another issue as well. I'm not sure I understood their point 100% but it seemed to boil down to:
Artists can spend hours and hours on a piece of art and get no payoff whatsoever - just a piece of art that is unlikely to be usable in their portfolio or anything else...
If contests become too common artists are likely to get sick of them and stop entering them...
Too many contests with lots of entries can hurt the commission trade as collectors won't bother buying individual pieces and just go the contest route, which helps lead to above issue, and so artists will have a much harder time making money, which could lead to less artists ever getting involved in commissions at all...
Now I readily agree that it would be bad for contests to become the norm... But how many is too many? What responsibility do I have to prevent this, if any? Isn't it on artists to decide if entering or not is in their best interest? Isn't it a collectors role to collect as much for as little as possible? (not going into quality at the moment for simplicities sake...). *Isn't the free market pretty much dog eat dog? *Or should we strive for a nice little socialist community of arts where we help one another and do what is best for the whole?
Anyway, so these voices got me thinking about the possible down sides of contests and I got to wondering what other peoples thoughts were on contests - pros and cons and anything in between. *I'm back on the fence as to if I should run one and need peoples thoughts to help make up my wee little brain...*
And btw, let's not get into specific prize amounts just to avoid that sticky widget... Besides, to an extent the prize money is irrelevant to if contests are good or bad in and of themselves...
So, anyone have any thoughts???