ill/rad with perma PA and +45% ragne defence help
By
BurteForce,
Posted on: 2010-07-04 18:31 in Controllers
I haven't tried to make such a build, but I'm not sure you can. Sometimes, you can't "have your cake and eat it, too." Or, in the immortal words of the Rolling Stones, "You can't always get what you want."
First, the whole idea behind a perma-PA build is to keep PA out there at all times as a way to draw the aggro away from you -- so you don't really need that much defense. Plus, you have Radiation Infection with a lot of ToHit Debuff. And Spectral Terror with its ToHit Debuff and AoE control. And you have a self-heal. If you stay out of melee and focus more on single target damage, then you shouldn't need much, if any, defense.
I just did an ITF yesterday with a PUG. 21 deaths during the ITF . . . and Zero for me. I got hit some, but I was able to handle it.
The only way possible to get what you want might be to put purple sets everywhere possible, so that you can free up a few other powers for Ranged Defense sets. You'll need all six of the Confuse set, which provides some decent ranged Defense. Unfortunate for you, the Ice and Earth Shields provide Smash/Lethal Defense, not Ranged.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
How much of a recharge do you need to get PA to be perma? I've got a global recharge of 58.75%, plus have 97.7% recharge on PA itself. No Hasten, so I'm figuring I'm going to have to work that in somehow (blah to respecs).
Here you go, this is as close as I could get you. The key is to use sets that boost recharge and ranged defense (The "Set Bonus Finder" in Mid's is your friend)
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Its not a build I personally would want to play, but this should get you in the ball park so you can play around with the slots.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1465;746;1492;HEX;| |78DA9D934953135110C75F160C49269B18F6C02401C21AE1E6725044ACD2028D097| |262714C0698AA304965862A3989CBD19356E90901453D78B4DCCAAFA196252E1FC1| |F51E7B79012D6F4E25FFDF9B4EBF4E77BF7E93974F2A42AC1D138EF05851B3ACF9B| |19269574AC5A25EF1E4F2866EE6F5919C56B4575396AAD9B6BE5CB6816A46AF2C6B| |6A6654D5CC826A95166C35AF95CB7A41CD6AE6A2EE114224F702D562A64F178B2B9| |651326B86C41F3E27561616D259AD6068367A8C2F1B16BA464E9B4B7A4537ED746D| |E1CB942054AEACEB058596A70CDBD42D8B5F2674AD6C988B7EFEA5682C2ED991F1B| |29107AF8A3E3FA959B65E596D86FCFAE0BBE910F2A9BAC41BA7103171E02DE31DA1| |F13DE12CFA916FB54E4CC3624438CF33B284AE0B84FE1C61648AB0E1909B6097635| |DA049B947086E101A3709CD5B84E47DC2166C71C95DAE19279ADCB38C39426A9ED0| |7F9130A41112D0F23ACED059374081F6FD850CFCE86107B7E703EDA9DF61B043989| |1623C0057AFACD8EBA3727C7E86425002846090100E11CE81FA3977E18F53206C53| |409A026CDA065388638B5094363E048DC8A2235F29ADFDDF183F08CD3F095DC7B90| |5A304EC76838CDDD0CAD5421FA23276B4974C1E30354953D31958A4C423D016DEE8| |6ED9A10C5A3F323E11E29FF958BF10EA21421B4770B5DDA5BF6EBFC5B84DE8B8436| |804BF983C841817D6C1ADEEE0563F065BA72CB393CB54B94CF53B83AB8D73B5F15F| |042F844DC8B0090E9BE4B0490E8B13D92DC7B89BC7B887C7B887C7B887C7781BE6A| |A5796DDFB949AD3F78CF19CF182D0FF926700DC0764B6033CBF833CBF833CBF833C| |BF433CBF433CBF4FE0B4D37257FA0A657B708D7195718D2FC975C60D1E00F8AF617| |994C3785A31D1EEDEBD9CF081474CFC63C9B877AF98709025B6E753F586F7D6FFF9| |BC526A37DF9BF5814EA164401CD3B89A4199C5D7395C69B8BA8492C7D7EA6BA5964| |0E810E67518E508CA519428E677133D3D786BFC280A4A002588124209A334A0B4A2| |ACA3547F0330341CF0| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Both SI and GI suppress so their total suppressed defense value is about ~5.5%. Mid's reports the unsuppressed values in the totals tab.
Also keep in mind Perma-PA does not require 60 seconds. If you can get PA to recharge in under 63 seconds you are in the Perma range. "Overlapping" recharge actually causes the old PA to completely despawn. My point is that either way you are going to have a gap (a little over 1 second) between PAs.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
First, the whole idea behind a perma-PA build is to keep PA out there at all times as a way to draw the aggro away from you -- so you don't really need that much defense.
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I will also reiterate LM's suggestion that you consider soft capping to S/L (instead of Ranged) using Ice Mastery's armor. I think you can get better results without making too many sacrifices in your build.
Hope that helps and Good Luck.
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I think the total recharge needed is ~300% (~281% being the minimum needed if you can live with 63 second PA). Hasten, AM and your recharge slotted in PA all count towards this value as well as global recharge bonuses from sets.|
Originally Posted by Psyte
How much of a recharge do you need to get PA to be perma? I've got a global recharge of 58.75%, plus have 97.7% recharge on PA itself. No Hasten, so I'm figuring I'm going to have to work that in somehow (blah to respecs).
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Here is Arcanaville's formula for calculating recharge:
NewRecharge = OriginalRecharge / (1 + RechargeBuffs)
Or to make it easier:
RechargeBuffs = (OriginalRecharge / NewRecharge) -1
Details on this formula and how recharge works is discussed in great detail here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=118546
I don't think you could do it on an ill/rad. I haven't tried mind you, but I'm doubtful.
I also don't think you really need to. As mentioned by Local, spec terror and RI both debuff tohit in fairly sizable percentages. Even if your goal is to fight a room full of AV's they will still offer about 8% of the 45% you need.
If your goal is just to construct such a build then it may be possible, but probably fairly gimped in the process.
I have built a perma PA/indom will version of my ill/cold that has 40.2% ranged def (no pvp 3% IO), but that toon has no need for stamina and has arc fog giving a 6% headstart. Those two factors are more important in the goal to reach high def than the extra recharge of AM is in freeing up slots to do so.
I dunno, all you can really do is sit and play with the build in mids and see what you come up with.
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You need around 195%-203% global recharge, including AM and Hasten, but not including the Recharge in the power itself. Capped Recharge in PA itself gives about 96%. My goal was 203%, but I ended up with 206.25%
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Originally Posted by Psyte
How much of a recharge do you need to get PA to be perma? I've got a global recharge of 58.75%, plus have 97.7% recharge on PA itself. No Hasten, so I'm figuring I'm going to have to work that in somehow (blah to respecs).
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Range SoftCap, With (hopefully) slightly stacked Hasten and AM Pushing PA into Perma. If not your gonna have to melee it up with Kick for the proc to fire...thus negating your Range Defence.
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Another option, slightly modified. You loose a bit of global recharge (well, over 10% or 2seconds of PA recharge), but have a ranged power to hope to get a KB proc trigger on.
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I'm sure Local can do better than these tho. And in both instances your defence rellies upon SI, and I'm not sure how much of that supresses when you attack.
EDIT: Seems to be 50% supression of the defence you have SI slotted for, not just a simple base value. But as Local pointed out, the -tohit toggle will drop most things hit chance to 5% alongside what defences are ehre even with the supression.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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If you have a 63 second recharge on PA you will be without PA for ~4.2 seconds.
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Originally Posted by saltyhero13
Also keep in mind Perma-PA does not require 60 seconds. If you can get PA to recharge in under 63 seconds you are in the Perma range. "Overlapping" recharge actually causes the old PA to completely despawn. My point is that either way you are going to have a gap (a little over 1 second) between PAs.
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SI suppresses to half the value shown in the power's effects tab in Mid's. So in this case both builds would be about ~3.5% short of soft-capped Ranged Defense. Mid's totals the unsuppressed value for some reason.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
And in both instances your defence rellies upon SI, and I'm not sure how much of that supresses when you attack.
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Hasten and AM both replace their effects, so do not stack. Unless of course you have zoned between uses.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Range SoftCap, With (hopefully) slightly stacked Hasten and AM Pushing PA into Perma. If not your gonna have to melee it up with Kick for the proc to fire...thus negating your Range Defence.
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Sure. If that's what you want to believe. Not to be a jerk, but sadly you are mistaken on how the power functions yet again.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
If you have a 63 second recharge on PA you will be without PA for ~4.2 seconds.
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PA actually lasts for a total of 63 seconds. The first PA does not begin to despawn until after the 60 second timer expires. The last and final phantom of the Phantom Army does not despawn until 63 seconds after initializing PA. At 63 seconds there isnt any more or less of a gap than if you have "overlapping" (sub 60 second) recharge. Why is that? Sub 60 seconds recharge causes all of the remaining phantoms to disappear giving you a gap of about 1.1 seconds before the first one reappears. Curiously that's the same amount of time you are without a phantom if you are at 63 seconds recharge. Hmm.
63 seconds is enough recharge to keep PA out 100% of the time to off-tank AVs on the STFs (Recluse is a little trickier but can be done using Phantasm's Decoy). Granted the difference between 60 seconds and 63 seconds is how many of the PA members remain (all three in the case of 60s/ last one disappears at 63s). Regardless you will still have a 1.1 seconds gap, not a ~4.2 second gap as you erroneously state.
This is how the power currently works in the game. I recommend you actually test the power and observe how it works.
Nice try though!
Was there something I said that led you to believe I haven't tested this extensively? It surely can't be testing you have done.
As this video clearly demonstrates I have 135% global recharge, hasten and an additional 95.3% slotted. Which gives PA a recharge of 240/4.003 = 59.995 seconds.
They all despawn before the power begins to activate again.
Perma PA Testing
Hopefully as we move forward we can dispel the myth of the 63 second Perma PA.
Or you are welcome to provide some sort of evidence for the power operating in the manner of which you speak. That will be tough to do though considering it doesn't.
This is one of those cases where just saying you know something isn't going to cut it.
edit: ideal a video showing a build that has a 63 second recharge on PA with them out perma. GL with that.
I was respecing into a ranged def build today anyway, so I held off on reslotting a few sets at the time. I ended up with a build that has PA recharging in 63.3 seconds.
Now before I upload the video would you like to make another guess at how long they will be down for?
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Frosticus, nothing personal, but I really don't care to convince you. It really isn't that important to me. This has already been debated ad nauseum. It has already been proven. Videos posted and all that jazz. I'm not wasting a respec on an "internet forum wang measuring contest". I really could care less what you believed. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Was there something I said that led you to believe I haven't tested this extensively? It surely can't be testing you have done.
As this video clearly demonstrates I have 135% global recharge, hasten and an additional 95.3% slotted. Which gives PA a recharge of 240/4.003 = 59.995 seconds. They all despawn before the power begins to activate again. Perma PA Testing Hopefully as we move forward we can dispel the myth of the 63 second Perma PA. Or you are welcome to provide some sort of evidence for the power operating in the manner of which you speak. That will be tough to do though considering it doesn't. This is one of those cases where just saying you know something isn't going to cut it. edit: ideal a video showing a build that has a 63 second recharge on PA with them out perma. GL with that. |
I do find something odd about your video. I don't know what is causing the anomaly, but I find it very odd that somehow your PA despawns before your power is charged. This is inconsistent from what I have observed. I don't know if its latency or "Arcana time" but something is off. If you are sub 60 seconds recharge (which I don't believe you are lying about) your new cast should cause the old spawn to disappear.
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If you have it post it! Down time should be about 1.6 to 2.6 seconds after your last PA disappears. I'm accounting for the "oddness" of your last video.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I was respecing into a ranged def build today anyway, so I held off on reslotting a few sets at the time. I ended up with a build that has PA recharging in 63.3 seconds.
Now before I upload the video would you like to make another guess at how long they will be down for? |
I am curious what your finding will be. If its wrong then it will be put to rest.
Edit: I looked at your last video again. I still find it odd that your power is not activating before the old PA despawns. How are your APP powers slotted out of curiosity?
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Really cause every debate I've ever seen where people talk about it they don't actually know for sure. I'm telling you and showing you for sure. Science > speculation. Proof > belief. Not much to say beyond that.|
Originally Posted by saltyhero13
Frosticus, nothing personal, but I really don't care to convince you. It really isn't that important to me. This has already been debated ad nauseum. It has already been proven. Videos posted and all that jazz. I'm not wasting a respec on an "internet forum wang measuring contest". I really could care less what you believed.
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| I do find something odd about your video. I don't know what is causing the anomaly, but I find it very odd that somehow your PA despawns before your power is charged. This is inconsistent from what I have observed. I don't know if its latency or "Arcana time" but something is off. If you are sub 60 seconds recharge (which I don't believe you are lying about) your new cast should cause the old spawn to disappear. |
It's not a high res video (was taking forever to upload so I just went with low res), but it is all there if you look.
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Your attitude isn't really putting me in a position where I want to bother uploading the other clip because the first clip already disproves your claim. I think we are at the stage you need to provide some evidence beyond "cause I say so".|
Originally Posted by saltyhero13
If you have it post it! Down time should be about 1.6 to 2.6 seconds after your last PA disappears. I'm accounting for the "oddness" of your last video.
I am curious what your finding will be. If its wrong then it will be put to rest. Edit: I looked at your last video again. I still find it odd that your power is not activating before the old PA despawns. How are your APP powers slotted out of curiosity? |
Suffice to say the gap is longer than 4 seconds and less than 5 seconds, which is what one would expect with knowledge of how the power actually works.
It's not at all odd that the power doesn't force a despawn with it recharging at 60 seconds. It would need to recharge at 59.7 seconds or faster to do that and even then it would only be forcing the final remaining pet at that time. 58.7 or less to force the despawn of two of them and 57.7 or less to force all three to despawn.
My APP powers have no bearing on this discussion, but:
iceblast - 5 piece decimation, 1 smash proc
hibernate - 5 piece doctors wounds
icestorm - 5 piece positron's blast
frozen armor - 3 piece lotg incl. 7.5%
Here's the absolute most simplified explanation I can give of PA.
Last pet is summoned at 3 seconds in, 60 second duration.
Cast time 3.3 seconds.
63-3.3 = 59.7
Now look above to see where that figure fits in.
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I agree. 100%. Except this was a hot topic a few years ago and was proven that sub 63 seconds was enough to perma. Sadly I do believe the debate never made it over with the new forums. I have been looking for the thread to link to for everyone's benefit.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Really cause every debate I've ever seen where people talk about it they don't actually know for sure. I'm telling you and showing you for sure. Science > speculation. Proof > belief. Not much to say beyond that.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Unless you are suggesting I edited the video for some hidden gain.
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Not at all. I even made it a point to state that I thought you were being honest and not doctoring the video. I would post a video, I don't have the same build since I respeced into Fire APP.
What I suspect is causing some lag in your first video is the fact that you are recording it. That could account for the delay. Is it a high end machine?
My experience with sub 60 second PA is that you can recast before the old ones disappear. This would force a despawn off all three PA.
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Hardly. Depending on the load your are putting on your system could make a few seconds difference.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
the first clip already disproves your claim.
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Example: I just ran a quick test with and without HeroStats. Guess what? It made a ~2 second difference between the two on my system.
I suspect your video recording may be causing enough of discrepancy to skew results. Are you lying about it? Not at all!
Do you get the same results without the recording? I bet the gap is even smaller.
I doubt cast time has anything to do with it. The game begins both the duration and time to recharge upon casting. (Yes I know this contradicts how cast time works)
Dunno what it could be.
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Lots of stuff from a few years ago that was thought to be true has since been disproved. |
Originally Posted by saltyhero13
I agree. 100%. Except this was a hot topic a few years ago and was proven that sub 63 seconds was enough to perma. Sadly I do believe the debate never made it over with the new forums. I have been looking for the thread to link to for everyone's benefit.
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Not at all. I even made it a point to state that I thought you were being honest and not doctoring the video.
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| I would post a video, I don't have the same build since I respeced into Fire APP. |
For instance if you now have an 80 second recharge on PA your theory would suggest 17 seconds of downtime. I will tell you that it will be 20.x each and every time you cast the power.
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| What I suspect is causing some lag in your first video is the fact that you are recording it. That could account for the delay. Is it a high end machine? |
The thing is I'm not really sure where this misinformation stems from. It's not a particularly complex power. The only information that has changed over time is we now know the cast time is a bit longer than listed due to Arcanatime. But that only explains 0.2 seconds of inaccuracy, not 3 full seconds.
If the power worked instantly instead of delaying the summons we'd know that our recharge would need to be rech time+cast time = duration of power for it to be perma.
ie Accelerate Metabolism has a duration of 120 seconds and a cast time of 2.244 seconds.
To get our needed rech time it is simply 120-2.244 = 117.756 seconds for the power to be perma.
Now for PA we know that the last pet is delayed 3 seconds and has a duration of 60 seconds giving the power an effective duration of 63 seconds. We know that it has a cast time of 3.3 seconds.
To get our needed rech time it is the same as above. 63-3.3 = 59.7 for the power to be perma.
*in the olden days how anyone got an answer that was different than 59.9 (using the listed cast time) is a mystery.
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| My experience with sub 60 second PA is that you can recast before the old ones disappear. This would force a despawn off all three PA. |
*Perma PA of course is a misnomer as we all know because it will always incur the delay of the first pet being summoned. But that is irrelevant for this discussion aside from knowing that even if you force a despawn of all the pets you will always have a delay.
More on topic, here is a fairly non-gimp 60 second PA ill/rad with 45.1% ranged def (suppressed GI/SI).
How non-gimp you consider a toon with no travel power is up to you. Swift+AM+ninja run isn't terribly slow though.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1425;707;1414;HEX;| |78DA9D934973124114C77B60260418029860C80261310B094C82178D1E52658C55B| |112451273CAE24826308A90624895DEFC00EAC5B3E5AE27D78365F44B7870FB16AE| |777C4B9358E5CD29F8FF7ADEBC7EFDBADFEBC5AB277521AECF0825345B351D6763B| |65E6B36EAD5AAD5D016CDB25D121E21447ADFDA7630E6ABD51DC7AED7DA86D45F3E| |2776B6B68CA2B9699B4DF498BB623BE81A9EAF55AC86556B1AED815EA843A85376B| |366398E8F5E96B62D6B3320EDE54AD3AE9583F4B660999B56C3A9D8DB3D73DB76C9| |286048BBB4B1683A4DAB712D0A7966E07F5711F269A922E712222FBA0C42284FE89| |F624C12CEA03B4D6969E29C82A6D1226389B14CC89C278CAF10EE29729268B9958F| |1028265C9F185F09235F08F7C1C9CD7E9A7B951654D718EB9CD306E1E0058649780| |0B334195DE3E81D1CBDE33321CDD11F829F47E6EEF151629D7E864ED0BB08C90021| |1D219C05F5CAE8DE37B4A0EF2D6397A0BF233C023F3F47177E9E5A000DB0C915B8C| |D677B9310BD45C0030C726C114C0A343D065358D623FC8DBC0E7C67FC24F4FC62CC| |1034E8B76EB96A778E2278C01491A6C869188C8A4E30F5B249E94D905794F104AC7| |D3283BE6980EA1658C80159858167B493C1E78C1784432F19AF18AF0958F7983CA7| |185721CEC71FE7E38F73A99F82DF908C3EC41B4CF006133F18BCCF24EF33F99B908| |21DA4E40E5213947A9AE1822FC332DEF0169946CA8C0A216313262F312E133E409B| |8DC95963DC04196E82F120837B21C77D92E79608C35A13B28326B8C659F6CBB25F9| |643E538548E67B961962173370EBB298B289D960A5FA664834C71BCFC112E429B83| |EADEFD841F3C62E11F4B41DDBB5E42214B6CDFA7E50DC1F5E045FEF7D9D5DBB7DE5| |BF4812EA3144094151CADA2ACE1EB3A8E4C1C5D4429E16BEBBDDE4E267814F39A46| |3986721C2502F9891BE8E9F183F8517494004A174A102584D28DD28F7207A5F507B| |78D0233| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote:
This. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
You'll have to forgive me though, I don't put a lot of weight in the subjective experiences of others, especially when they run counter to my own experiences and quantifiable testing.
|
Running w/ Hero Stats I am getting approximately ~2sec difference from what Mid's is reporting I "should" see. All the other numbers are the same. Nothing subjective about "real" numbers.
I understand "cast time". What I am seeing is that the numbers the game reports contradicts that. That is all.
Quote:
The difference right now is that I've offered you tangible hard evidence as well as a break down of how the power works. You are no longer arguing against subjective experiences, you are arguing against video proof.|
Originally Posted by saltyhero13
This.
Running w/ Hero Stats I am getting approximately ~2sec difference from what Mid's is reporting I "should" see. All the other numbers are the same. Nothing subjective about "real" numbers. I understand "cast time". What I am seeing is that the numbers the game reports contradicts that. That is all. |
Anyway, you'll have to explain this contradiction you are seeing more clearly. Does the contradiction explain why you believe PA works under a different recharge principle than all other powers? And beyond that I think we are at the stage where it is safe to say "vid or it didn't happen"
Quote:
Actually I was arguing that the video "proof" could potentially be "flawed" if it induced latency. This "could" effectively require more recharge than actually needed.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
The difference right now is that I've offered you tangible hard evidence as well as a break down of how the power works. You are no longer arguing against subjective experiences, you are arguing against video proof.
Anyway, you'll have to explain this contradiction you are seeing more clearly. Does the contradiction explain why you believe PA works under a different recharge principle than all other powers? And beyond that I think we are at the stage where it is safe to say "vid or it didn't happen" |
I'm not arguing anymore Frosty there is one key thing I overlooked.
Thinking back, there is a buff I wasn't accounting for when I made my "subjective observations". My Ill/TA/Psi had the Time Lord's Boon buff (not sure if that is it). I didn't have the attributes window to track my actual recharge bonuses so I was basing it off Mid's numbers (PA was sub 63 but not 60 or better). This sucks, but it does solve that mystery for me.
I was able to "observe" the delay in activation while looking at the HeroStat timers, similar to what I perceived in your video. It is similar to the "Valley of Lag" in the ITF. I basically saw the timer jump from three seconds or so to done. The power indicated that it was available to activate but did not right activate right away. Either way the numbers displayed by HeroStats are off a tad and I don't believe your video could be off by three seconds.
One last mystery I cant figure out the delta with. Toying around on my GF's Ill/Rad doing the same thing with HeroStats I noticed Mid's reports her calculated recharge to be 64 seconds, yet in game its actually 66 seconds. I don't think its "Arcana Time" and its too small to be "cast time" As soon as I activate PA the duration timer starts counting down from 60 and her recharge is instantly reported as being 66 seconds. PA is available about 3 seconds after the last one "bamfs" too (which is consistent with how you say it should work no?) Don't know but this last delta is driving me nuts!
Regardless you should get your "finding" stickied since we lost the older posts about this subject. I definitely dont think 63 seconds cuts it for perma anymore (more so due to latency and Arcana time).
I have played around with mids alot trying to figure this out, but I cant. I have also looked at Local Man's guide and alot of other ones, but they were only of limited help to me.
I am trying to make a toon that has its ragned defence caped and has Phantom Army's recharge down to 60 seconds. How can I do this? It seems like I can only have one or the other, not both.
I have the purple confuse set, and I aslo want recall friend and the self rez power from the fire epic, but this is not requried for my build. I have the influnce to purchase exnsive recpies if I need to.
Can anyone ues mids hero desginer to show me the build and post the seed code please?
Thanks.