How tall should I make her?
By
Amerikatt,
Posted on: 2010-07-04 14:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Id say make her 6'3" to 6'5" with nice athletic tone to her and she should look like an amazon
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Goku is 5'7" and Vegeta is 5'2". None of the sayians are that tall besides their really big hair. Not sure where you get this idea from. Like other posters said, higher gravity would result in a shorter being and if anything DBZ only reinforces that.| All of Dragonball Z's Sayans are heavy-worlders and, with the exception of the comically short Vegeta, they're all pretty much the tallest people around. This, as best as I can understand it, is because they train to be so tough they can basically ignore the stress caused by gravity, rather than adapting to mitigate it. |
Given that comics and video games are fantasy, most people put an ideal self, or what would be ideal to be or "super", hence so many male super heroes are 6' or taller. (usually 6'2") But in this game, you see so many taller people, you're actually average sized then heh.
I personally have modeled many of my characters off of real people, so their heights tend to reflect more realistic heights.(like Aftermath is 5'11" after my younger bro, Headgames is 4'8" after my older sister.) This includes my main Lastjustice, which I aimed use my actual height of 5'4", making him rather short among heroes. I always felt I was badass enough hold my own, in a world of super powers I dont see why I wouldn't be there too.
Even when I'd make tough girls, I'd usually make them around 6'2-6'6". My Tanker Earthrage is about 6'4" (without granite of course.) They seemed big enough, but that's from the point of view of someone shorter. I suppose I should let my girlfriend make a character one of these days to see what she makes since she's 6'4".
Two my friends I played with are both over 6 foot in real life. Lady Zealot was always really prone to making massive amazon characters since she always was taller than people in real life(like 6'3"), it felt natural be that way in game to her. So she'd always max out the slider. (my other friend was same way, only she insisted the chest slider didn't go far enough to suit what she wanted to model after herself.)
Which oddly people in game would comment on it, be like gee you're tall. Was like the way she carried herself in game somehow effected people similarly to how people react to her in real life. It's definitely strange but amusing to watch how people would react with her.
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I wouldn't know their real heights. I do know, however, that Goku tends to be one of the tallest characters around, despite training in 100G for long periods of time, and Vegeta never gew any shorter after training in 300G for what must have been three years. Point is, realism is probably my last concern, somewhere between the shape of the ear canals and the length of the toenails. And her hair covers her ears and she's wearing boots |
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Goku is 5'7" and Vegeta is 5'2". None of the sayians are that tall besides their really big hair. Not sure where you get this idea from. Like other posters said, higher gravity would result in a shorter being and if anything DBZ only reinforces that.
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| Given that comics and video games are fantasy, most people put an ideal self, or what would be ideal to be or "super", hence so many male super heroes are 6' or taller. (usually 6'2") But in this game, you see so many taller people, you're actually average sized then heh. |
People have been telling me to make her something like 6'5'' or 6'8'' or taller, and I disregard this because she was 7' tall to begin with, and I quickly got sick of being dwarfed by basic cops and my very own contacts. Then I remembered what I set out to make. Not a tall woman, but a GIANT woman. Not tall for a woman, not tall for a human, but GIANT. 7' tall isn't giant. It's basketball player size. The tallest actual real person on record, Robert Wadlow measures 2.72m, which in feet is about... Let me see. A little over 9 feet.
That's higher than anything our scale can produce (ours caps out at 8 feet and women can't even reach that, frikkin' misogynist scale!), and yes, his head does appear to be larger than normal, though I don't think he's eight head heights tall. Either way, I'm not looking for something that's normal for humans, or indeed normal for humans with our messed-up ruler and scale. I'm looking for something that's giant and clearly inhumanly big. 6'anything'' just doesn't cut it, and this is something I'm growing more and more aware of as I think about this.
Right now, I went with 34 out of 36 by the costume file, and I already know I'll be going for 35 out of 36 when this rolls Live. Not quite max height, but close enough that it might as well be
*edit*
By the way, if it sounds like I'm dismissive of other people's opinions, I'm not. I just CANNOT overstress enough just how badly out of scale the scale ruler is with anything you'll see in the in-game world. If you try to make your character "real hight," then be prepared to be dwarfed by practically everybody. It may say 5'8'', but in this world that's still a full foot and more under just the random civilians roaming the streets.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Since you'll never be taller than every NPC you encounter (namely Council/Column soldiers who are even taller than max), something arbatrary between 7' and 8' should be tall enough to lord yourself over most PCs you'll meet.
I'd go with "an ear above 7 feet" tall if it were me.
Evil is a maze of deceit and the cheese it hides is never worth the running.
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I see what you mean. I think I might just go with that. I'll have to check out what I have her set to now, but it's pretty close to what you have in your pic. I also don't think you can go much higher than in that pic |
Originally Posted by MDanger
Since you'll never be taller than every NPC you encounter (namely Council/Column soldiers who are even taller than max), something arbatrary between 7' and 8' should be tall enough to lord yourself over most PCs you'll meet.
I'd go with "an ear above 7 feet" tall if it were me. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have a female character of max height, but what I did there (and do on all female characters) was to set the leg slider to minimum, because I think the default settings for the legs make them out of proportion with the upper body. I tend to go for the "youthful" headshape though, so it adds a little bit of height there compared to the default.
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I'd say the legs are a matter of taste. I mean, they probably ARE out of proportion, but I personally prefer that kind of look. I will say right here and right now that, yes, going too long on the legs looks a bit odd... Which is kind of what makes it fun |
Originally Posted by Arctic Man
I have a female character of max height, but what I did there (and do on all female characters) was to set the leg slider to minimum, because I think the default settings for the legs make them out of proportion with the upper body. I tend to go for the "youthful" headshape though, so it adds a little bit of height there compared to the default.
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Whenever I have any of my taller women Walk, it's always cool to get that feeling of real height because it feels like their torsos and their shoulders are just abnormally high off the ground.Granted, the ones I'm talking about are naturally very tall, as well, but the legs do help. I guess I'm just a fan of the less life-like aspects of fiction. Nothing bugs me more than "just a person in clothes" concepts to play. There has to be some kind of angle beyond "Looks decent." The one "guy in a suit" that I have is designed with a crisp head-to-toe white suit with just a bright red tie and bright read head and beard. Kind of like what a friend of mine wore to his prom
Now I just have to wait, what... Months? Until Going Rogue ships. Rasa-frasa!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have to say, when choosing a height for my characters I tend to disregard the numbers because I don't feel they are an accurate representation once you get ingame.
I tend to think "Above average" or "Below average" and move the slider based on that. If you want a character to be a really big, I would put the slider far to the right.
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It's surprising how often this sails right over my head. I want REALLY BIG, but for some reason I'm always conservative with the slider. Really big, but... Not too big, I keep telling myself. Erm... Why? So I can get pissed off the character's not big enough later on and spent three free tailor sessions incrementing the height, waste people's time on the forums and end up going too big anyway?|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
I have to say, when choosing a height for my characters I tend to disregard the numbers because I don't feel they are an accurate representation once you get ingame.
I tend to think "Above average" or "Below average" and move the slider based on that. If you want a character to be a really big, I would put the slider far to the right. |
Eventually I'll learn that lesson. I just hope it's soon.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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OK, I know I said I was happy with the costume as is... But then I sat down to tab through the options, and I came up with a few ideas that I liked almost just as much. They're not different enough to call different costumes, but they're different enough to inspire me. So, I want to ask you guys for help one last time on this one. I have a few options here, and I hope you can tell me which y you like best or, if you're feeling REALLY generous, give me a mock-up of your own. Here we go:
Costume 1 - This is basically the same costume I've been toting around since the start, but I "fixed" it. Colours now match each other (the oranges were all over the place) and the gaudy cheetah-print cape is gone, and for the better. Weapons are still the same, so they will not be pictured.
Costume 2 - This is the costume that caused me to wonder if I couldn't do something more. I have no catgirls (yet), but I figured that a woman from an alternate dimension where humans aren't exactly human might prove to be a good opportunity to make me a dog girl. I mean, it makes about as much sense as the rest of the story. The question is - does it look good?
Costume 3 - Taking a hint from my other giant woman, I wondered if bigger gloves might not carry the point across even better. Sure enough, there is a Rough Leather glove texture to match the boots, so this actually looks pretty good. The question, though, is does it not compromise something that was good about the original design? I'm biassed in this case, since almost ALL of my characters have gloves, so I'd appreciate an objective opinion.
Costume 4 - Another glove variant, this time with the Tie gloves with skin. I guess a part of what's cool about the original costume is the full-length bare arms, but they still looked a little... Bare. The Tie gloves are a good solution that matches the leather of the rest of the costume, gives me a glove AND still leaves a mostly bare arm. I'm not sure if it doesn't look a little... Un-tribal, though.
Again, sorry to keep perpetuating this. It's just something I honestly can't decide for myself.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Costume 4. Sorta.
You need something on the arms, but I hate the way that the the mitten-like gloves join the arms. (Although if my work gloves did that, I wouldn't have had hot asphalt shot up my sleeve, but I digress) 
There's gotta be something just a little bit less than the full gloves. The ones in costume 4 work for me. Padded leather or such?
Most of the game's gloves don't work for me. Look into the forearm wraps? (I also like the fingerless gloves and there's a small robotic glove that passes for a tech glove, but for your character, that wouldn't work)
That's kind of why I say I'm biassed. I actually LOVE the large gloves for what they are and how they look like mittens One of the things that bugged me from trying this costume in action the few times I have is how tiny her hands are. There's nothing that can be done about it - that's just what the female model's hands are like. It just seems odd on what is an otherwise pretty large character.
That said, the gloves I used were the Tie gloves with the Skin subcategory. They're from the Martial Arts pack, and I believe they're intended to simulate the Ken/Ryu/Akuma/Sakura martial arts padded gloves, but coloured like the rest of the leather, they should pass muster.
One thing that I should mention, though, is that if I'll use full gloves at all, they'll be some variant of big, be they the actual Large gloves, the Banded gloves or some other variant. The only reason I'm going with the "smaller arms" look is for the skin, so if I'll be covering that up, I might as well go big, anyway.
*edit*
Just to make it clear - I'm not dismissing the suggestion. I did put Costume 4 on the table, and that's already a vote for it. I can see going with that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If you like the "Large" gloves, then use those by all means. But let me put something else forward for consideration: one of my closest offline friends is a young woman who grew up in the 80s, when strong female role models were just beginning to trickle into popular culture. She's still a gamer and a writer today, and she has a strong prediliction for the capable female characters that made such an impact on her young psyche. And I can't blame her.
But I've helped her design some characters, too. One of her core design principles, though, was that her characters have to have some outward show of femininity. Otherwise, it rather defeats the point, no? Samus Aran doesn't do the trick. Neither does the perpetual victim, Princess Zelda. Lara Croft does. (Less Valkyrie and Swan, more Ms. Liberty, if you prefer.) Personally, I like the slightly softer look of the Tai gloves, and I think she'd agree.
That said, there's plenty of decorative touches about the character already: the tiara, the hair, the midriff. If you're not enamored of the Tai look, let me ask this: have you tried the different forearm wraps? Forearm wraps with chains could hopefully be made to match the leather boots and the chest detail. It'd have a delicate core wrapped in iron.
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Newton: I observed Mercury's perihelion moving 43 arc-seconds per century more than it should. Is this WAI? --Einstein |
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That's actually one of the reasons I've stayed away from designing "female robots" and female inhuman monsters and so on and so forth. I'm probably going to get a lot of Golden Girl hate mail for this, but the basic humanoid body shape is, at least in my visual cortex, that of a genderless bald male figure, and so if I'm going for something that is clearly humanoid but very clearly not in the slightest human, such as animate stone, a robot or a an animal, I'll go for the basic framework.|
Originally Posted by vulpish_one
But I've helped her design some characters, too. One of her core design principles, though, was that her characters have to have some outward show of femininity. Otherwise, it rather defeats the point, no? Samus Aran doesn't do the trick. Neither does the perpetual victim, Princess Zelda. Lara Croft does. (Less Valkyrie and Swan, more Ms. Liberty, if you prefer.) Personally, I like the slightly softer look of the Tai gloves, and I think she'd agree.
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I HAVE had some success with stepping out of those bounds, but the kind of difficulty involved in making it worth the model choice has severely limited what I can do. In fact, I have probably a dozen men in full helmets or otherwise obscured faces, but so far only a single woman with a mask. Those are the limitations I have to work with, I guess.
So I agree with your friend - I don't want the bigness and the toughness to overshadow the "woman" part of "giant woman"
By the same token, however, I'm hedging my bets on contrast of concepts, and I can't really compromise one for the other too much, or it loses its point, which in turn makes it SEVERELY less interesting.Quote:
| That said, there's plenty of decorative touches about the character already: the tiara, the hair, the midriff. If you're not enamored of the Tai look, let me ask this: have you tried the different forearm wraps? Forearm wraps with chains could hopefully be made to match the leather boots and the chest detail. It'd have a delicate core wrapped in iron. |
The Tai gloves don't really make her actual hands any bigger, as they apply over the existing model, but they make the silhouette of the hand much bigger, which is ultimately what I'd like to see. It's really odd to see these small, delicate fingers holding the huge, fat (and square) handle of the Legacy Axe. And not because the axe is too big. The hand is just a little small for what I want. The Tai gloves help with that, even ever so slightly.
Still, I'll try the chain wraps. I already have precedent for it in the form of the chain tangle that secures her large Gladiator shoulder (I LOVE that effect, by the way
), and if I colour the wraps brown or, more likely, orange, I should be able to pass them off as fur, leather or animal skin, or whatever actually makes sense. Should look appropriate, is all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'll second this suggestion. You already have the chain motif established in the chest decoration, so chain-wrap gloves would not be out of place and you have a sort of "tribal" feel.|
Originally Posted by vulpish_one
Forearm wraps with chains could hopefully be made to match the leather boots and the chest detail. It'd have a delicate core wrapped in iron.
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I'll also state that the "Dog Girl" look doesn't look horrible, but I wouldn't go with it unless you're willing to depict her a little feral.
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"A little feral" is a pretty apt description of what I have in mind for her |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I'll also state that the "Dog Girl" look doesn't look horrible, but I wouldn't go with it unless you're willing to depict her a little feral.
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Not stupid or disorientated, mind you, not in the sense of "Evil iron creature must die!" but more so in the "outdoorsman" sense. Actually from what fiction I already have written about Brutticus, I have her preferring to sleep outdoors, such as on the roof of an apartment building and preferring the open spaces of nature over the commodities of modern cities. I don't know if that really is "feral" as such, but it's up there.---
More to point, you guys forced me to examine my options much more closely, and I actually think the game engine, along with my weapon choice, might have made the decision for me. It's all well and good looking at just gloves in relation to the costume, but what really bugged me enough to consider alternate gloves was the way her small hand gripped the large handle of the Legacy axe. I can fully see why BABs would have wanted to scale weapons down, given the clipping problems. But since I couldn't leave well enough alone, here is some evidence:
Tied Gloves - I ran across these by accident tabbing through the options, and since they were mentioned a few times, I thought I'd include them. The overall look is not actually bad at all, but you ought to spot the problem I was talking about right away - her hand is big in a fist, but the axe handle is bigger. From the front, it's not too bad, but from the back it clips through her thumb and out of her grip. It's minor, but it's there.
Chain Wrap - As suggested by the Vulpish One and others, this is a test of the Chain Wrap gloves. Now, I have an instant problem with these - they're thinner than Tied and they have the chain run into her grip along with the handle, which looks... Uncomfortable? Odd, at any rate. I realise I could just remove the hand chains, but then the forearm chains aren't dense enough to impress me. Probably won't go with this one. And again, the axe clips out of her grip.
Tai Gloves - these are what I originally misspelled as "Tie" gloves. From the front, they look the best of the lot so far, but from the back, they have the same clipping problems. Nevertheless, the way the leather pads pull the whole thing together make them the best choice. Until...
Large gloves, Rough Leather texture, Rough Leather pattern - The moment I saw how these gloves hold the axe, I went "Bingo! This is exactly the look I want!" The large gloves have a much, MUCH larger hand than practucally any other glove type, which is basically REQUIRED to hold the axe I've chosen for her. From the front, it's PERFECT. It's a large glove holding a large handle and more or less dwarfing it a bitl. From the back, it clips ever so slightly at the pinky, but there's still enough glove in all directions to make the grip feel strong and secure. What's more the pose of that glove right in front of her face is exactly the kind of look I wanted. So even if it doesn't look perfectly ideal on its own, the Large Gloves option is really the only non-robotic one I can think of that works well with the large axe in practice.
A few supplementary notes:
*I know that if I had not picked such a large, out-of-scale, unsupported axe, the handle thickness would not have been a problem. I know that. The problem is that there is no bigger custom axe, and certainly nothing even REMOTELY as big at character creation. I'm out of options here, so I do the best I can. Yes, I needed a decent grip to handle the axe, but I needed that axe for the character to look good, so it is what it is.
*The poses I got were achieved by zooming in while editing her weapon. I had no idea the editor did that, as I'm not used to zooming in for anything other than face (the old editor only ever zoomed into the face), so I keep discovering new functions. I wish we had this for an in-game emote.
*I finally found a way to grab screenshots off the editor in Windows 7 x64. Ironically, it has nothing to do with either the game or Windows. I just used Fraps to take snapshots, and that seems to be capable of dumping a screen capture of anything regardless of circumstances.
That's about all I have for the moment. Thank you for arguining with me and pushing me to do more research and look at things closer. If I were doing this alone, I'd have probably settled for something mediocre and run with it. That is why I enjoy discussing costumes - it always leads to better designs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sounds like you've got your look, then. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Large gloves, Rough Leather texture, Rough Leather pattern - The moment I saw how these gloves hold the axe, I went "Bingo! This is exactly the look I want!"
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Newton: I observed Mercury's perihelion moving 43 arc-seconds per century more than it should. Is this WAI? --Einstein |
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Yeah, but I only really caught that on, like, the twelfth pass |
Originally Posted by vulpish_one
Sounds like you've got your look, then.
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I've been running through these options for the past two days or so, and I somehow managed to both miss the technical details AND forget why I wanted to alter the gloves in the first place. Odd how that works, sometimes.That, by the way, still does not exclude the canine feral look. I can use the big gloves AND still go with the Rat Ears (that's what those were
) and the canine tail. The question is if I SHOULD.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I know I am a bit late but I have made a female Character like this my self at one time and I found the best look was making her as tall as possible using the "Heavy" build widening the hips as much as possible same with shoulders and lengthening the legs all the way.
Pesonally I wish they would make a Huge Female form (like the Hug form that ehy have but more feminine) cause in the end I ditched my big power house female for not being enough of a power house... in look any way
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I don't use pre-fab builds, but in effect, that's pretty much what I did anyway. High muscle slider value, wide shoulders, wide hips, long legs. Seems to work just fine.|
Originally Posted by Xenophage
I know I am a bit late but I have made a female Character like this my self at one time and I found the best look was making her as tall as possible using the "Heavy" build widening the hips as much as possible same with shoulders and lengthening the legs all the way.
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| Personally I wish they would make a Huge Female form (like the Huge form that they have but more feminine) cause in the end I ditched my big power house female for not being enough of a power house... in look any way |
Ideally, I'd have liked to see an alteration of the sliders, which David also said was out of the question, or more realistically, more muscular body parts using technology like Robotic Arms and the Armoured torso, as well as bigger hands and feet via specific boots and gloves, to which I've had no official answer yet, so probably a no-go. About the only thing I've gotten a positive response from David on has been the suggestion of adding a more muscular skin/tights texture for females, which seems to have gotten thumbs up, at least on the surface. Probably be another year before anything comes of it, if anything comes of it at all.
I have to admit, though - a more ripped, muscular texture for females makes them LOOK a lot bigger without the actual model being any bigger at all. I, err... Received a few pics to demonstrate it some time ago, one of which was in the original post of this thread, though I had the link tags broken. I hope we see something of that nature somewhere in the future, because it would solve most of the problems I see.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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By the way:
I'm still on the fence about the "feral with ears and tail" look. I could go either way, I just can't decide.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would say make her human looking to start and then make the lvl 20 costume a lil more feral and same at 30 etc and then basicly by the time you have all the costumes the story would be like as her power grew so did her fealness and like wise the angrier she gets the more feral she is or something|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
By the way:
I'm still on the fence about the "feral with ears and tail" look. I could go either way, I just can't decide. |
and I technicly don't use prefab either but they do kinda make ya start with one of the 4 then you move the sliders so I tend to shoose the body type that closest resembles what I am wanting then adjust from there
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You know, when I read this the first time I thought "Doh! Why didn't I think of this before!" It's a really good idea, I have to say, but... Well, it has a particular problem that's inherent in how costumes are handled, in that I can easily "reverse" the evolution by swapping to an earlier costume. Because of this, I try to design my costumes like outfits, that is to say as things that can be swapped into and out of either in real time or with minor limitations (such as having to go back home to change). Any costume which obsoletes another costume is best done as a REPLACEMENT for the earlier costume, rather than as an alternate one.|
Originally Posted by Xenophage
I would say make her human looking to start and then make the lvl 20 costume a lil more feral and same at 30 etc and then basicly by the time you have all the costumes the story would be like as her power grew so did her fealness and like wise the angrier she gets the more feral she is or something
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Now, I guess I could just go the werewolf route and have her sprout ears and a tail at night or during a full moon or when she powers up or such, but... Well, it's just ears and a tail, so that's a pretty underwhelming transformation of that's what I'll be selling it as. And I honestly don't want to go full werewolf. I don't have a wolf head I can use with hair (or that doesn't look like my butt), I don't want to go with backwards legs and werewolves are... Kind of a bland concept, to be honest. Granted, girls that turn into werewolves are inherently more interesting, but I just don't think the concept is interesting enough to carry a werewolf through.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'd go with a human face and likely human ears, but consider a tail. For a "human with a tail for no good reason" route. DBZ inspired, maybe? By skipping all of the other animalistic features, you would avoid being confused with "just a big-*** catgirl".
The question is....belt or no belt?
Edit: about the belt: Nevermind. I've never had a character with both a belt and a tail at the same time. Coulda absolutely sworn that they were mutually exclusive at one time. You need the spiked belt for that costume.
The only example I've seen of a tall heavy-worlder is Buck Godot and he's almost as wide as he is tall just to have the skeleton and muscle to support it all.
Much as it may seem embarrassing to draw inspiration from Dragonball Z, that's what I'm shooting for. I'm less interested in what someone would become to adapt to the conditions presented and more what someone would become to THRIVE in the conditions presented and largely IGNORE them. Smaller creatures developing as a result heavy gravity is adaptations. HUGE creatures developing in spite of heavy gravity, by contrast, is life defying nature, which, again, is what I want.
I never had any doubt whether this girl should be big or not. The answer was always clear - she should be big, and then some. The question was just HOW big, and judging by the answers, what I was originally shooting for was nowhere near big enough. I understand what would be logical, reasonable and natural. I'm shooting for pretty much the polar opposite of that