Ironic badge -- very disappointed

That's not ironic, that's just sad.

How people criticize Alanis Morissette for getting irony wrong is beyond me. I honestly think that most people who criticize others for not knowing what "irony" is doesn't understand it themselves, which is ironic in itself for reasons that hopefully will become apparent in this post.

Key to the concept of irony is some divergence between what is expected or stated and what is reality. The simplest example of this is verbal irony, often called sarcasm, such as when you say something like, "Yeah, he's really happy about that," when in fact it is understood and known that whoever you're taking about is outraged. However, this isn't the only kind.

There is also situational irony, in which people in a situation believe one thing to be true when in fact something quite different is the case. The classic example of this is the tale of the girl who sold her hair for a watch fob to give to her husband for his watch that was missing one, while the husband was selling his watch to buy a ribbon for his wife's beautiful hair. Each believed that the other was still in possession of the thing that was required for their gift and that the gift would be very useful to the other. The reality was that in doing their respective actions, they were completely invalidating the actions of the other. (At least from a utilitarian perspective; I'm sure each dearly loved the other for the thoughtful gesture.)

Going back to the song, most of the examples she gives are indeed ironic. Here are some examples:

"An old man turned ninety-eight / He won the lottery and died the next day." The expectation is that someone winning the lottery will have a rich, full life after doing so. The reality is that the old man gained practically nothing from winning, and in fact, if he died of a heart attack from the excitement or something, the lottery winning could have actually kept him from having more life than he did. Thus irony.

"It's a black fly in your Chardonnay." The expectation is that Chardonnay is fancy and expensive, but the reality is that a fly in it makes it quite disgusting. Thus irony.

"It's like rain on your wedding day." The expectation is that your wedding day will be a bright, happy occasion that your family and friends will enjoy. The reality is it is dingy, wet, and miserable, and that your family and friends will probably want to get away and home as soon as possible. Thus irony.

"It's a free ride when you've already paid." The expectation is that a free ride is a good thing, but in this case, it is useless because you're already out the money that you paid. If anything, it will make you feel stupid for forking over your hard-earned pay. Thus irony.

"It's the good advice that you just didn't take." Hopefully, this one is obvious. The expectation is that good advice will be valuable and benefit the advisee. The reality is that the good advice was worthless because you didn't take it. Thus irony.

Irony doesn't have to be blatantly obvious to be irony, and I will agree that some of them are subtle. But a lot of people confuse irony with coincidence. They are very similar, and yes, sometimes there is overlap in that an event can be both coincidental and ironic. Yesterday on my way to work while I was pondering the lyric, "It's a traffic jam when you're already late," I got stuck in a traffic jam when I was really already running a bit late to work. Some would have said, "Huh, that's really ironic," but I don't really think there's anything particularly ironic other than the irony conveyed by the lyric itself, which is that when you're running late, the expectation is that you will probably be rushing to make up time and get there quicker, when the reality is that it will take you even longer than normal to get to your destination.

What's also ironic is that I don't particularly even like that song. (Expectation given that I've been defending it is that I'm a fan, reality is that I detested Alanis Morissette when she was popular, and have only recently come to a grudging respect for her music.) Nevertheless, if anything, she has educated millions of Americans and Canadians about the meaning of ironic in discussions just like these, many of which probably happened in real classrooms with teachers who use current events and popular culture to make their lessons more relevant and meaningful to their students.

I would expect someone who criticizes others for not knowing what irony is to understand it themselves. When the reality is that they do not... Isn't it ironic? Don't you think?

I agree. And the last sentence is a good/pithy example.

Although, I do understand your angle, Tony.
You could say that Mental Maiden's example is just simply obvious, while the examples you (the song) present are more subtle... but they're not really subtle in the slightest, are they?
I think most everyone might agree that it is just grades of irony... Not just in obviousness-subtlety... But, really, in quality.

Sure... a 3 dollar bottle of Andre Cold Duck champagne is champagne...
But try selling that to the connoisseur.

And... everyone who is alive is basically an expert in irony, hehe, whether they know it or not.

Really... Is it irony that... To be alive, is simply to die?
We're all at the butt of the joke and I think, most of the times, people like to see a bit more quality in the written/sung/quipped examples of irony for us to chew on.

Then again... that could just be me
(Just shooting out some thoughts... no big deal!)

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

That's the opposite of what I would have expected!

I think it would be ironic if it rained on the outdoor wedding festivities of a pair of meteorologists.

See, that's just it, what you're referring to isn't irony. Really, it's not. Look it up. At least, it's not in the "pure" sense of the word, certainly not in the historical sense of the word. The Wikipedia probably nails it best in the section titled, Situational irony: "This is a relatively modern use of the term, and describes a discrepancy between the expected result and actual results when enlivened by perverse appropriateness." It also notes, "By some definitions, situational irony and cosmic irony are not irony at all."

Now, normally I just let it go, because the fact is that there are a lot of people out there who think irony has to involve some clever play on words or other cosmic pun. Again, there is overlap; there can be both. But what gets under my skin is when people who don't understand what irony is start lecturing others who clearly do have a grasp on it on what it means. It's a little bit like if I, with my limited knowledge of cars, started lecturing a mechanic on the best choice of engine for a car.

Again, key to the concept of irony is a disparity between perception and reality. In the example you gave, I wouldn't expect the name of a festival to have any bearing on the weather. It could be classic verbal irony if someone named an event "Clearskies Festival" that is held in Seattle, which averages only 58 days of sunshine each year. On the other hand, most normal people expect their wedding day to be pleasant, happy occasions, and rain almost certainly causes to some degree a disparity between that expectation and the reality of the situation. Of the two examples, Alanis Morissette's is clearly more illustrative of irony.

Incidentally, the story I referred to was The Gift of the Magi, by O. Henry. And you get extra credit if you recognized the deeper irony in that although the expectation of giving each other gifts that had been rendered useless through their actions for the other would be sadness or disappointment, the reality is that the couple ended up with the best gift of all, a stronger love for each other. Irony doesn't have to always have a negative connotation to it.

Those are examples of irony.

None of those examples are irony.

MentalMaden is absolutely correct and you are incorrect about irony. Sorry.

It is ironic that you are lecturing about irony while getting it wrong in almost every instance. The fact that you mentioned that very thing in your other post merely makes it hilarious. If it makes you feel better, you can look at the song as a meta-statement of irony: someone listing things as ironic when in fact they aren't ironic at all.

Okay, as long as this is escalating this to snarky...

No matter how much you lecture and no matter how many times you state something that is just plain wrong, it doesn't change the dictionary definition of the word, it doesn't change virtually every literary textbook ever written, it doesn't change any of the innumerable resources that back me up on this. Your retort of "nuh-uh" just isn't convincing.

It reminds me of an argument I got in with a guy in college one time. He made some offhand comment about the dark side of the moon, the side that always faces away from the sun. I wasn't looking to get in an argument, I just mentioned in passing, "You mean the Earth. The 'dark side' of the moon is the side that always faces away from the Earth." He got all defensive and dug in, and no amount of logical explanation about its period of rotation versus revolution or about how the same features are always in the same places regardless of phase would convince him otherwise.

It reminds me a bit of an argument I got in with a guy from work one time. He said something about his cousin's child, his second cousin. Again, I offhandedly said, "that's your first cousin once removed, not your second cousin," and explained that your second cousin is someone who is the same generation as you who shares the same great grandparents (whereas a first cousin shares the same grandparents), and that the "once removed" designation stands for "one generation removed." Again, that guy got all defensive and dug in, and no amount of documentation from reputable sources I showed him would convince him that having studied my own genealogy pretty heavily, I knew what I was talking about.

I learned a while back that some people, no matter how much proof you offer them that they're wrong, will still refuse to admit it. Some people, for some weird reason, think that they look smarter clinging to something wrong, something that everyone else knows is wrong, that to simply say, "Oops, I was mistaken."

One more anecdote for the road. I had two good friends who used to date each other. I had known both of them for years before they met each other, and I knew them both better than they knew each other. I told them up front, "You're not compatible. You really have conflicting personalities, and at best, you're going to drive each other nuts." They were both nice people, but one was classic type A, very picky, always early, very neat, etc. The other was laid back, happy-go-lucky, a bona fide slob, hours late to everything, etc. No, they insisted, they complement each other, and became bound and determined to make it work. They'd show ol' Tony that he was wrong. It ended very badly. One literally ran away to Chile, met a girl down there who was more like him, and is happily married with three kids. I introduced the other to another friend of mine who was compatible with her, was the best man at their wedding, and they have one girl and another on the way today. Both are still good friends of mine, and to this day, they hate each other.

The point is, there are things I'm not an expert in. Automobiles, as I mentioned above. Sports. Outdoor activities. Poetry. Heavy metal, rap, and opera. War history. Cooking. Impressionist art. New York City. These are some subjects that, if you argue with me about something pertaining to the topic, you'll have a decent chance of convincing me I'm wrong.

This isn't one.

Okay, one more true story to convey my impression of this argument. I once took a class in which a lady insisted that there are 52 states in the United States. She swore up and down that she knew this for a fact. Of course, I insisted that no, there are only 50 states in the United States. Unfortunately, and to this day I don't exactly know how, she somehow managed to be a lot more convincing than I was and had the other 12 or so students and the teacher waffling on who was right. Before long, some were actually defending her. One classmate actually said, "I remember them adding two more states a few years ago, like back in the 1980s." I swear, I thought my head was going to pop. The next week, I brought a book of everything imaginable. Maps, history texts, lists of U.S. Senators and Representatives, printouts of government statistics, the whole nine yards. Before I could make my case, she admitted that when she got home, her nine-year-old daughter told her, "Mama, you know there are only 50 states!" Thank god someone in the family had a lick of sense. No matter how many strangers who think they know better tell me that there are 52 states, I know for an absolute fact that there are not. It's one of those things that I'm in my element talking about, I know I'm right, and it really is that simple.

If you continue to choose to believe something that is provably untrue, well, go right ahead. I have a saying about that, but I'll keep it to myself to avoid unnecessarily escalating this argument any further.

Tony, I'm not the one "lecturing". I gave my take on the subject and you've bowed up and given instances in your life where you've argued with people about things you know are fundamentally correct. (None of which actually have anything to do with this debate mind you, so I'm not sure what they were intended for)

Now, I've read your sited material and still don't agree with you. I'm not discounting what the material says, from what I read it doesn't back your argument either.

The Gift of the Magi is a great example of irony. We totally agree on that one. A fly in wine, isn't. The two aren't even similar. I've been polite with no snark or flames used. And I am one of those people that will admit being wrong and apologize if needed. But this is one time where I hear your argument and I still don't get it. I'm sorry, but I stand by my previous statement, even after carefully reading your sited materials.

I really don't understand how Ironik saying "MentalMaden is absolutely correct and you are incorrect about irony. Sorry." is snarky. Heck, I'm just happy Ironik agrees with me on something for once.

Made my head spin!

All this is copied from dictionary.com... Stop arguing over petty things such as definitions and have fun. Darn kids! Irony is rather fascinating if I do say so myself.

You are correct... The situation as it is explained is not irony, but you can turn the words to make the speech about the situation ironic.

For my limited knowledge of the "true" meaning of irony this doesn't seem to be it. If something like this was irony then 80% of all situations involving humans would be irony. (99.9% of statistics are made up on the spot ) Now if while talking to someone and your friend saw the fly and they said:

"I hope you didn't pay extra for that." That would be as ironic statement. They know full well you paid for the drink and not for the fly in it, that now makes it undrinkable (I hope anyway unless you are nasty) due to the contamination from the nasty fly in your expensive drink.

Why is the event not ironic? Because it is not contrary to what you expected. Unless you were sitting there thinking, "I really hope a fly doesn't land in my drink." then one does, that is ironic, but otherwise it is not. There is more into something being ironic than an event happening that you didn't like or expect.

OK now the wedding day... Not ironic technically because it is not contrary to the belief that a wedding is the best day ever. For this to be contrary it would have to be the worst day ever because contrary is the opposite. I doubt that rain on someone's wedding day would make it the worst day in someone's life, if so maybe they should rethink how much they really love the person they are marrying.

Don't read too much into irony or you can't have fun with it.

None of that is either interesting or relevant. On a side note, this line, "Both are still good friends of mine, and to this day, they hate each other," is poorly placed, because it could reference either the first couple or last couple.

I'm not going to list my accomplishments which are all directly pertinent to this discussion because I prefer my anonymity, but when it comes to the English language and the use thereof, I know what I'm talking about. This is not just merely in my wheelhouse, it is my whole ship. For the most part, you have completely missed the mark when it comes to providing examples of irony.

I don't really see how a fly could make Chardonnay any more disgusting than it already is. I think the real irony is that the person said, "give me a fancy, expensive wine," and the waiter brought them a glass of Chardonnay in the first place.



ETA: I just looked up irony in my dictionary - Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, published in 1983. The first entry under irony was, "a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning."

I've never heard that definition of irony, which is apparently referred to as Socratic irony, but I thought it was funny in light of all the disagreement in this thread over who really knows what is ironic.