Epic Power Personal Forcefield
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-06-30 11:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
The power is a carbon copy of the PFF that is in the Force Fields set. Just because it is in an Ancillary Pool doesn't change how it works.
It provides so much Defense to ATs that aren't supposed to be all that defensive, that it is worth the penalties. Taking too much fire? Duck into PFF. Need to 'stealth' to the end of a mission? Duck into PFF. Want to get to some area safely that you otherwise couldn't? Duck into PFF.
If the Devs changed it so that you could attack while it is on would mean that the Defensive value of the power would need to be gutted. No Defensive toggle in the game provides that much defense by itself and still allows you to attack. You can, depending on the AT in question, soft-cap all of your defenses with just one power. It would be MASSIVELY overpowered if you could attack from within it.
edit -> For instance, on a Blaster, it gives you 52.5% Defense, without any slotting. That is past the soft-cap of Defense. And since it adds to base Defense, that is to every position and type. And that is at the cost of only 0.1625 end/second, which is less than most armor toggles in Defense sets. This would create the very definition of a Tank-Mage if you were to allow Blasters to attack through this.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Yet you don't seem to understand why being able to attack or tell your pets to attack (which amounts to the same thing) would be ridiculous. I'm sensing a bit of cognitive dissonance here.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
I understand why Useing rest would be off-limits while the power is active. that would be ridiculous ^^'
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Comically enough, Rest would be completely useless while in PFF, if you were planning on using PFF to use Rest in combat: PFF provides 7.5 defense (modified by the melee buff def attribute so that it's 52.5%, 67.5%, and 75% for Blasters, Controllers, and Defenders respectively) and 4.0 resistance to all but toxic (modified by the melee res dmg attribute so that it's 28%, 40%, and 40% respectively). Rest provides you with -1000% resist and -1000% defense (both use the melee ones attribute so it doesn't change based on AT), neither of which is resistable. You could turn on PFF while you're using Rest and it wouldn't change a thing about what happens if something attacks you: you'd still be at the -res and -def floors.
You want to be virtually untouchable AND be able to attack? Sorry, way out of balance.
Dec out.
If I'm not mistaken PFF used to allow you to attack while it was active, but you suffered a tohit penalty. (Or maybe it was a damage penalty, or maybe it was both, but that was a long time ago and I don't really remember.)
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Personal Forcefield is Elude and then some and infinitely sustainable for a fairly low cost. To ask for the ability to attack out of it is utterly absurd unless you want to slash its stats down to a tenth, if not less.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As long as the enemy can still hit me (and they can), I should be able to hit them.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
You want to be virtually untouchable AND be able to attack? Sorry, way out of balance.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Again, you're asking for a god-mode power and a half with no crash and no downtime. This will not happen.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
As long as the enemy can still hit me (and they can), I should be able to hit them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm not asking for a god mode power, just fair balance. If they have a chance to hit me through it then I should have at least as much chance to hit them. If I am absolutely unable to hit them, then they should be absolutely unable to hit me.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Again, you're asking for a god-mode power and a half with no crash and no downtime. This will not happen.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
You have a point, but this is clearly designed as an "Oh CRAP!" power. I'd rather they made you unable to be hit completely rather than give you the power to attack out of it.
Dec out.
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As would I. It makes little sense to completely protect the enemy from your attacks while leaving yourself vulnerable. They may as well let enemies hit with Detention Field attack you whilst remaining unaffected by attacks themselves, too.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
I'd rather they made you unable to be hit completely rather than give you the power to attack out of it.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Why don't we just give this guy what he wants, so long as PFF carries a 99.9% damage/special (mez mag/duration and buff/debuff strength) debuff to the caster. That way all of his attacks do around 1 damage.
...hey, never said the attacks actually had to do anything!
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Or a -200% to hit debuff so he's capped at 5% chance to hit (like enemies have to hit him).
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Why don't we just give this guy what he wants, so long as PFF carries a 99.9% damage/special (mez mag/duration and buff/debuff strength) debuff to the caster. That way all of his attacks do around 1 damage.
...hey, never said the attacks actually had to do anything! |
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Which, as somebody said above, is how PFF used to work. Not sure if it was floored at the 5%, but there was a huge debuff to To-Hit. Enough so that you were basically just throwing Endurance away trying to attack. Can't remember what their reason was for changing it, but given how long ago it was I don't see them rushing to change it back.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Or a -200% to hit debuff so he's capped at 5% chance to hit (like enemies have to hit him).
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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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It was changed specifically because it was possible to work around that debuff, either by stacking on enough +tohit, enough -def, or any combination of the two. The same would still apply now.|
Originally Posted by Kiken
Which, as somebody said above, is how PFF used to work. Not sure if it was floored at the 5%, but there was a huge debuff to To-Hit. Enough so that you were basically just throwing Endurance away trying to attack. Can't remember what their reason was for changing it, but given how long ago it was I don't see them rushing to change it back.
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The problem is that you're assuming that there should be an even exchange between survivability and offense. There isn't really a reason for that. When you start getting into hyperspecialized powers that do one thing to such an extent that it's possible to completely negate almost anything that is present to counter it, it's better design to start having powers provide less returns (or have greater countereffects in order to balance it out). The more specialized a power, the more you can leverage it so the less efficient it should be.
The argument of "they can attack me so I should be able to attack them" isn't a particularly good one either. The very fact that enemies can still attack you (albeit with negligible effect) is quite possibly the only reason why the power has a negligible endurance cost, low recharge time, and can be on for an extended period with that degree of survivability. It's also because of this that many players have found uses for it beyond "run away" (a number of FF Defenders I've known use it to soak alphas for the team). Compare it to Phase Shift (which is/was originally intended to be used in largely the same way), and you'll see exactly how much better it is because of those attributes.
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It's a great argument, I'd say. We have a power here which is supposed to be highly specialised at protecting the user from the enemy, yet what it does best is protect the enemies from the user, allowing them to potentially kill the user from a position of complete safety.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The argument of "they can attack me so I should be able to attack them" isn't a particularly good one either.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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With the exception of two things: the user is very unlikely to be subjected to any degree of danger thanks to the incredible level of survivability the power provides (and remember, it doesn't turn off your natural regeneration, so it has to be capable of killing you in under 5 seconds if it was off in order to even start killing you, and that's ignoring any other +regen or +res you may have as well) and the user has control over whether the power is on or not.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
We have a power here which is supposed to be highly specialised at protecting the user from the enemy, yet what it does best is protect the enemies from the user, allowing them to potentially kill the user from a position of complete safety.
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Your argument would actually have some legitimacy if it weren't for the fact that you are the one that turns it on and off and that you'd have to be completely outclassed to even be threatened by a target while it's on.
I dunno, I think it has some merit. It's an "Oh, CRAP!" power that has potential not to protect you in some cases. I don't even understand making the power the way it is in the first place without making it "I'm safe, you can't hit me".
You are correct that the chances are small though. In fact, back in the day, I used to wise-crack that it was actually a travel power (because I used to use it to dash through purple NPCs with impunity). 
Dec out.
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I've been killed by a group of -1 enemies with it on before. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
With the exception of two things: the user is very unlikely to be subjected to any degree of danger thanks to the incredible level of survivability the power provides (and remember, it doesn't turn off your natural regeneration, so it has to be capable of killing you in under 5 seconds if it was off in order to even start killing you, and that's ignoring any other +regen or +res you may have as well) and the user has control over whether the power is on or not.
Your argument would actually have some legitimacy if it weren't for the fact that you are the one that turns it on and off and that you'd have to be completely outclassed to even be threatened by a target while it's on. |
And yes, you control when it gets turned on, but the thing is you generally turn it on when you need it, which is more often than not when you're far from full health. A couple of "lucky" shots later and that PFF didn't do you any good, but at least it fully protected them from you in your last moments. Perhaps the reason you were in dire straits was due to a mounting and staggering array of Defense debuffs which render the PFF less survivable as it fully protects the enemy from you.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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-fire/dev blaster toggles on PFF|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'm not asking for a god mode power, just fair balance. If they have a chance to hit me through it then I should have at least as much chance to hit them. If I am absolutely unable to hit them, then they should be absolutely unable to hit me.
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-proceeds to dispense Trip mines, time bombs, gun turrets, rains and caltrops from safety.
It is fair balance. It's fair for the AI cause there would be so many points of exploit on the player side.
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i highly doubt you were killed by -1 npcs with it on. the only way is if you had less then 50 hp when you turned it on and it would have to have been an entire group of npc's shooting at you right before you turned it on and they all would have had to hit you. in mid's it shows 81.9% def with just 3 so's in it. if you use io sets, that number can reach over 100%. hell, even when you add stealth and weave on top of it, each with 3 so's in them, it takes def up to 92.8%. eat a purple insp or 2 and nothing is hitting you at all.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I've been killed by a group of -1 enemies with it on before.
And yes, you control when it gets turned on, but the thing is you generally turn it on when you need it, which is more often than not when you're far from full health. A couple of "lucky" shots later and that PFF didn't do you any good, but at least it fully protected them from you in your last moments. Perhaps the reason you were in dire straits was due to a mounting and staggering array of Defense debuffs which render the PFF less survivable as it fully protects the enemy from you. |
try weating some insps next time you go into PFF. both green and purple. makes a big difference.
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It's happened to me numerous times. Rikti, Council groups chock full of Marksmen, Nemesis, Gunslingers, and those Rad-slinging Neutron bots as blue minions and white Lts have all defeated my FF Defender with PFF on.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i highly doubt you were killed by -1 npcs with it on.
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the only way is if you had less then 50 hp when you turned it on and it would have to have been an entire group of npc's shooting at you right before you turned it on and they all would have had to hit you. in mid's it shows 81.9% def with just 3 so's in it. if you use io sets, that number can reach over 100%. hell, even when you add stealth and weave on top of it, each with 3 so's in them, it takes def up to 92.8%. eat a purple insp or 2 and nothing is hitting you at all. try weating some insps next time you go into PFF. both green and purple. makes a big difference. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Can you actually do that? I thought you were restricted to powers that only affected yourself? If you can, I would opt that that be blocked.
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Leo_G gives news: -fire/dev blaster toggles on PFF -proceeds to dispense Trip mines, time bombs, gun turrets, rains and caltrops from safety. |
Dec out.
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I think he was talking about how exploitable it WOULD be if you were allowed to attack from it, even with a large -toHit debuff.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Can you actually do that? I thought you were restricted to powers that only affected yourself? If you can, I would opt that that be blocked.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Ah, ah, ah, I see. Don't worry, just my flatulent brain at work again.
Move along, nothing to see here. 
Dec out.
this is concerning the Power Personal Forcefield from the Force Mastery epic powerset.
at the moment, it's set-up to leave you as a sitting duck or protect you on long journeys..
at the moment the user can't attack while using it or command pets, they can only use powers that affect themselves excluding rest..
for such a high level (41) power to act this way.. is lame
so I'm requesting the ability to attack while using it. commanding pet would be nice too, but I can go either way on pets and rest, they aren't that important.
Request Change: allow player to attack while the forcefield is on
Optional Changes: allow player to take control of and command pets while it's up.
I understand why Useing rest would be off-limits while the power is active. that would be ridiculous ^^'