Honestly I don't think folks should have to pay to get that type of customization to their powers.
So: /signed to having more animations, /unsigned to it requiring a monetary transaction.
I thought the game was already animated.
There are folks that would like the big, flashy, anime style powers (I know Sam has mentioned it, too), but I'm skeptical. I think most of that stuff would be too big and would look kind of ridiculous in a lot of the close-quarters situations we tend to work in. I don't see huge plumes of water, for example, working well in an office corridor, unless they went to the vastly more expensive and time consuming effort to make the water bounce off the walls, etc.
Dec out.
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Agreed 100%.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Honestly I don't think folks should have to pay to get that type of customization to their powers.
So: /signed to having more animations, /unsigned to it requiring a monetary transaction. |
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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That's kind of why it's suggested as a booster pack. For instance, I've always wanted to see an alternate version for Sniper Blast that was a big honkin' Kamehamehadouken fireball that landed in a loud explosion, justifying its greater damage, but my chances of getting this are somewhere between zip and nil. It doesn't seem to be what the developers have in mind for the basis of the power an the visual thematic of the game in general. It bugs me, but I can't do anything about it. But if this were a paid addition completely unrelated to the actual "intended" expansion of power customization, YOU BET I would get my credit card details out in a microsecond.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
There are folks that would like the big, flashy, anime style powers (I know Sam has mentioned it, too), but I'm skeptical. I think most of that stuff would be too big and would look kind of ridiculous in a lot of the close-quarters situations we tend to work in. I don't see huge plumes of water, for example, working well in an office corridor, unless they went to the vastly more expensive and time consuming effort to make the water bounce off the walls, etc.
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There are lot of powers I feel should be more flashy, in the Final Fantasy 7 sense of the word. I've always felt that Inferno should be a towering pillar of fire and brimstone shooting up into the sky above the skyline and that Nova should be a HUGE explosion with an opaque expanding shockwave, and that Full Auto should sound much more like an autocannon than like a low-calibre submachine gun. The list goes on and on. I know I won't get that, because other things will always take priority.
Booster packs, as they are advertised, seem to be developed OUTSIDE of the normal development cycle, and as such shouldn't take away from free game development time. As such, unorthodox concepts make sense to be reserved for Boosters whereas the free expansions focused more on what most people will be able to use.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This kind of thing has been suggested for years. Welcome to the club. |
Originally Posted by Smash_Zone
Left and right I see tons of people suggesting new booster pack ideas. All of them are only costume suggestions though. While I do love new costume goodies, what about animations? Issue 16 gave us the ability to customize our powers animations for Super Strength and Martial Arts, but how about expanding that? Instead of new costume boosters, how about Animation boosters?
[snip] I know that this would be a huge undertaking, and I don't claim to know anything about programming animations, but I just I'd throw out the idea. Who says booster packs have to be limited to costumes? |
Several people have already mentioned in this thread that this kind of thing should be part of a free upgrade to the game. Sure that'd be nice, but the problem (as you implied) is that our Devs (in years past) have already told us that major power animation upgrades like this would in fact be a huge extra undertaking for them. If the Devs ever seriously decided to delve into this kind of thing it would likely only ever be as part of a paid booster pack/expansion to make it worth their time and effort. Therefore if it meant I'd have to pay extra to motivate our Devs to do this at all I'd be more than willing to see this as some kind of Booster Pack.
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One thing that you have to consider is animation times.
Dont get the wrong idea, I would LOVE to have animation options for every power in the game.
But how do you offer a wide range of animations that all fit within a standard time-frame. On a power that has a long animation currently (1.67+ sec), do you design new animations that fit exactly inside that time-frame, or in the case of an animation with a shorter duration, do you tack on a "wait" period to make up for the full original duration.
On a current fast power (1.5 sec or less), what do you do with an animation that has a much longer "wind-up". Do you "hurry-up" the frames so that this animation "fits" in the original animation window or do you monkey around with the game engine. Either way, I would be unhappy with a cool animation being "sped-up" or "slowed" to fit inside a particular time frame.
Worse yet, what if you set the DPA according to the animation time to account for max recharge. Talk about min-maxing. Every person would not only figure out how to slot best and build best, but we'd be discussing which animation is the best one for an attack chain.
I personally was very happy with the animation changes to Martial Arts and Super Strength.
It gave me the opportunity to do away with the funky CAK animation and the Punch attack from SS. If you look at the alternate animations though, I believe that they had to "fit" inside the existing power's animation with as little "hold" time as possible.
/signed More animations Please ! 
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Considering the alternate animations for Super Strength and Martial Arts, and the significantly flashier animations for Dual Pistols, Demon Summoning, and the upcoming Kinetic Melee, they're definitely working on spicing up the animations and getting better at it.
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But then there's that. I don't know if it's more work to make new animations for an older powerset or to just make a whole new powerset.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
One thing that you have to consider is animation times.
Dont get the wrong idea, I would LOVE to have animation options for every power in the game. But how do you offer a wide range of animations that all fit within a standard time-frame. On a power that has a long animation currently (1.67+ sec), do you design new animations that fit exactly inside that time-frame, or in the case of an animation with a shorter duration, do you tack on a "wait" period to make up for the full original duration. On a current fast power (1.5 sec or less), what do you do with an animation that has a much longer "wind-up". Do you "hurry-up" the frames so that this animation "fits" in the original animation window or do you monkey around with the game engine. Either way, I would be unhappy with a cool animation being "sped-up" or "slowed" to fit inside a particular time frame. Worse yet, what if you set the DPA according to the animation time to account for max recharge. Talk about min-maxing. Every person would not only figure out how to slot best and build best, but we'd be discussing which animation is the best one for an attack chain. ... |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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From what we've been told, it's about the same amount of work, in the same way that making a new zone and updating an existing zone are about the same amount of work.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
But then there's that. I don't know if it's more work to make new animations for an older powerset or to just make a whole new powerset.
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For a new powerset, Castle just has to put some numbers together in a spreadsheet and then work with the animations guys to figure out what each attack looks like. From that point on, it's all in the animations, and, considering how long it takes to put some balanced numbers together in a spreadsheet (Synapse spent his first week putting together numbers for Elec Control and we're only, just now, seeing the fruits of his labors), the animation time takes up a vast majority of the effort and time involved. Creating new animations would essentially do away with the exceptionally short "powers guy puts numbers in a spreadsheet" portion of development.
Personally, I would love to see something like this happen, but I doubt it would actually happen. The booster packs have, traditionally, been using cheap (from a time/effort/money standpoint) development resources to put out something that the devs can then turn around and make some "easy" money with by selling them to a large portion of portion of the playerbase. Booster packs designed around alternate animations would either require substantially higher development resources (to target a large number of powers) or be targeted to a smaller portion of the playerbase (by only providing options for a substantially smaller number of powers). Either way, the cost:benefit isn't really there, and that's the big advantage of the booster packs: a really low cost:benefit ratio.
I think its a great idea for a paid booster pack.
Alternate animations is a luxury item. If you can't afford it, no worries, you aren't left underpowered next to your teammates.
Once Power pool customisation is added to the game this would make even more sense.
Themed animations (eg magical runes for Medicine Pool, Tough, Weave, Hasten and a Magic Carpet Flight pose) would make great packs additional packs.
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Um... I have to disagree here. We spend the great majority of every beta discussing powers statistics and their balance, and we keep seeing changes. You of all people should know it's not just a question of putting numbers in text boxes and signing off for the day to go grab a soda and a bear claw.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
For a new powerset, Castle just has to put some numbers together in a spreadsheet and then work with the animations guys to figure out what each attack looks like. From that point on, it's all in the animations, and, considering how long it takes to put some balanced numbers together in a spreadsheet (Synapse spent his first week putting together numbers for Elec Control and we're only, just now, seeing the fruits of his labors), the animation time takes up a vast majority of the effort and time involved. Creating new animations would essentially do away with the exceptionally short "powers guy puts numbers in a spreadsheet" portion of development.
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In fact, I'd say it's a highly unsafe bet to claim that the animation time tames up the vast majority of the effort and time. Unless you want to suggest that Castle could easily be replaced by a fast typist, I don't think you're looking at this objectively.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Actually, it is. The "work" thereafter is involved in balancing out those numbers, which, while it involves a good deal of work, isn't as much as that demanded by the animations. Castle doesn't spend a vast majority of his time working with player powerset spreadsheets (which some people may assume). He spends a lot of his time working on NPC powers and other enemy related things ("Power guys" refers to all powers used, not just those used by the players).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Um... I have to disagree here. We spend the great majority of every beta discussing powers statistics and their balance, and we keep seeing changes. You of all people should know it's not just a question of putting numbers in text boxes and signing off for the day to go grab a soda and a bear claw.
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| In fact, I'd say it's a highly unsafe bet to claim that the animation time tames up the vast majority of the effort and time. Unless you want to suggest that Castle could easily be replaced by a fast typist, I don't think you're looking at this objectively. |
It doesn't surprise me in the least that Castle and Synapse created the numbers for sets we're just now seeing years ago. Animation takes a lot more time than creating the numbers for the sets do. They may require a similar degree of expertise to do it right, but "a similar degree of expertise" is not the same as "same amount of effort invested".
If you want an object example, look at how much time it takes the devs to change an animation once they have figured out that it needs changing compared to the amount of time it takes the devs to change a number that they decide needs changing. The difference is in magnitudes. A numerical change can generally be seen within a few weeks to a couple months of the change being decided upon. An animation change, on the other hand, generally takes at least 1-2 issues before it finally arrives.
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Please understand that I see this without malice or disrespect, but I'm going to need more than just your word before I can accept this as a fact. It's just hard for me to see things that way.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, it is. The "work" thereafter is involved in balancing out those numbers, which, while it involves a good deal of work, isn't as much as that demanded by the animations.
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| If you want an object example, look at how much time it takes the devs to change an animation once they have figured out that it needs changing compared to the amount of time it takes the devs to change a number that they decide needs changing. The difference is in magnitudes. A numerical change can generally be seen within a few weeks to a couple months of the change being decided upon. An animation change, on the other hand, generally takes at least 1-2 issues before it finally arrives. |
It just occurs to me that I should probably mention the Blaster Defiance changes, the Stalker changes, the Dominator changes, the Defender changes and so forth.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ahh... heuristic balance tweaking...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Things like fiddling with Rage,
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| the recent BotZ change, |
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| the removal of the Poison Gas Trap proc storm |
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| If putting together the numbers for a full new powerset were a question of a day's work, surely Stone Armour would have been unbroken years (literally years) ago. |
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| It just occurs to me that I should probably mention the Blaster Defiance changes, the Stalker changes, the Dominator changes, the Defender changes and so forth. |
Keep in mind, when you bring up the "failings" of the devs to respond to broken mechanisms in game, a lot of that isn't the inability of the devs to tackle that problem specifically. Often it's a lack of desire to mess with what is roughly balanced, if a bit strong, or simple ignorance that something needs their balancing attentions. The devs aren't omniscient, so they aren't going to be able to tell immediately that something is broken or is outperforming their intentions. Look at what it took for Castle to realize that Shield Charge was horribly borked. As players, we have to put a lot of work into convincing the devs that a power or set is broken in some way. When you look at the times that we've actually convinced the devs to look into a power or set, the changes happen very quickly. Unlike animation changes which, once again, take a very long period of time.
Hmmm...I'd probably be more than willing to pay for a booster that allowed me to turn Electric/Energy Melee attacks into Martial Arts (powerset) styled attacks.
An Eagle's claw animation for Total Focus/Thunderstrike? Yes please!
And this is me thinking they could reuse alot of the current animations with some added special effects tagged on (pink pom pm feet...electric charged feet).
And lots of other animations reused with a bit of tweaking.
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One would think. And yet the set has barely been TOUCHED in what must be five years at this point, coming on six. Surely if it's a question of a couple of hours, more would have been done, meaning there's more to this than just finning in the fields in a spreadsheet.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Depending on your views on my suggestions, I've already demonstrated that it's possible to balance Stone Armor, and I can tell you that it took me roughly 2 hours to put that entire proposal together. Looking at the numbers wasn't difficult.
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| Keep in mind, when you bring up the "failings" of the devs to respond to broken mechanisms in game, a lot of that isn't the inability of the devs to tackle that problem specifically. Often it's a lack of desire to mess with what is roughly balanced, if a bit strong, or simple ignorance that something needs their balancing attentions. |
Yes, I can see something like demon summoning requiring a lot of time and effort to animate. I can also very easily see something like Dual Pistols being literally EVIL to so much as conceive of, let alone playtest and balance, and I STILL think it's less potent than it could and should be.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I am all for some new animations choices
I don't know about animations as a booster pack. Just for "What would you do with weapons sets" (or non weapons sets, or melee, or whatever.)
Let them fit in custom animations as they can, unless you're talking "exotic martial arts animation pack, $5" that only works with a specific powerset. Even then though I don't think it'd be better (unless they're very odd) than giving it away like they do now.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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I think it's more of an issue of "there are more important things to deal with now". The problem with changing many of the completely borked mechanisms in game (Rage, Granite Armor, etc.) is also the fact that it's going to piss people off. Look at what happened when the devs tweaked Energy Transfer or, if you can remember back then, Instant Healing. The devs have to be cognizant of player backlash when they're fixing things and that lends a large amount of trepidation to any fixes that they're going to put in after the fact, especially long after the fact (because players have had 5 years to get used to it).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
One would think. And yet the set has barely been TOUCHED in what must be five years at this point, coming on six. Surely if it's a question of a couple of hours, more would have been done, meaning there's more to this than just finning in the fields in a spreadsheet.
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Fixing the numbers, itself, is a simple process (as it has been said numerous times, it's all in a spreadsheet). The problem is, and always has been, getting the devs to overcome their natural tendency to not rock the boat whether by demonstrating that the power is overpowered or by providing a show of player support for such a change.
I think this would be a really cool theme for a booster pack. Alternate animations and such. It'd also be a way to get funding to do that, since I'm sure it's hard to justify spending money on alternate animations for powers that are already animated. Also since they already did power customization I don't know how high a priority it is for them to revisit it. But if it's in the form of a booster that will net them more money, I think it'd work and I'd love to see more animations. Hopefully over a range though and not just martial arts based.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
I would pay for just alternate run/jump/fly animations. Any one of them really.
Power animations would be nice too.
It wouldn't be just Martial Arts based, that was just an idea that sparked the suggestion. One pack could be like Avatar-style elemental attacks, another could be more technological. Think blasts firing from wrist launchers, or shoulder-mounted cannons. That would be sweet!
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Left and right I see tons of people suggesting new booster pack ideas. All of them are only costume suggestions though. While I do love new costume goodies, what about animations? Issue 16 gave us the ability to customize our powers animations for Super Strength and Martial Arts, but how about expanding that? Instead of new costume boosters, how about Animation boosters?
The idea came from watching Avatar: The Last Airbender (more like Avatar: The Last good cartoon) and seeing all the action scenes. All those awesome ninja-like attacks with elemental powers thrown in. Then I thought of our elemental powers, and how untamed they look. In Avatar, they've been training for years to master their element, and it shows. Their forms and styles are all just stunning. But here, it's really boring how you attack. Fireball is literally just that, chucking a fireball. Lighting Blast is just a simple point-and-shoot animation. You get the point.
So, an example for an animation booster pack. You could have "Super Booster: Natural Talent" which would add new animations to look more ninja-like. Add in some Martial Arts style animation for powers, instead of the standard point-and-shoot animations we currently use. You could expand this to other powersets and origins, such as magical animations, technological ones, etc...
I know that this would be a huge undertaking, and I don't claim to know anything about programming animations, but I just I'd throw out the idea. Who says booster packs have to be limited to costumes?
Arc ID: 348998 - Becoming a villain
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