Soloing AVs/GMs worth it?
By
Ben_Arizona,
Posted on: 2010-06-12 24:37 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I hope you don't set the bar quite so high in other areas of life because it will be one of continual disappointment when nothing is ever achieved.
|
Speaking of hyperbole. IMO if my marriage and career are at risk over my opinion of an online superhero video game I've got problems soloing a GM won't solve.
Quote:
It wouldn't really be "over a video game" the way Frosty put it, it would be over implausible expectations you hold in life which are merely exemplified by the expectations you hold in game. Again, going by Frosticus' quoted words.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Speaking of hyperbole. IMO if my marriage and career are at risk over an online superhero video game I've got problems soloing a GM won't solve.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I used the TA soloing Lord Recluse as an example out of hyperbole. That obviously fell flat. Apparently it also insulted someone. If it means anything I'm sorry, because getting into personal conflicts on the message boards--let alone two in one week over the same topic--isn't something I really want to be involved in.
From the look of it, Frosticus is someone who enjoys soloing GMs and AVs. He obviously enjoys that very much. It may be worth it to him.
To me, AVs and GMs are boring. I don't care one way or another whether someone can solo them. I don't think this reflects in any way on my personal character. Did you know that I also hate watching football? I couldn't care less who wins the game. I feel exactly the same way about boss fights in City of Heroes. Since the question was "is soloing AVs/GMs worth it?" the answer, for me, is "No."
Anyway I don't think anyone really wants to read about my personal life or my expectations of it. This is a game, it's fun, and we're spending energy ripping on each other. So I tell you what, I'm going to go back to doing what I pay my monthly fee for, and I'll see you in the place we can both agree is pretty awesome--City of Heroes itself.
As an example I generally find I have little to no interest in most of the RP activities that go on in this game. As such you won't find many/any posts from me in those sections of the boards. As another example, I too have little interest in football, but you generally won't see me lurking around the sportsnet forums.
Something drew you to this discussion though and prompted you to post about how you find it uninteresting and unimpressive. If I didn't know better I'd even say you tried to belittle the activity, but your opinion doesn't matter enough to me to determine that with any degree of certainty. To me, your feigned disinterest in unimpressive.
I can assure you I'm not insulted by your position on the accomplishments that get talked about with regard to the wide variety of feats performed by people in this game. If anything I was bothered enough by some of the...lets be nice..lack of knowledge about game mechanics that you cited. That spurred me to post. The fact that I called out your hyperbole by applying it to a scenario outside of the one being talked about and you turned around and tried to pin it on me is just icing on the cake.
If you find yourself getting involved in discussions that you have no claimed interest in then I think the only way to solve that would be to not get involved in discussions you have no claimed interest in. I won't say anything to the guy that pours wine at the dinner table because I have no interest in wine. I don't partake in it and I certianly don't have the belief that I would be in a position to offer any insightful information to the situation.
Anyway, I think the OP's technical questions have been answered and I for one provided some insight into why some might pursue the activity despite the low quantitative rewards. It's the same reason why I chase IO's and high end TF's and hopefully one day down the road PvP again. It makes my toon feel more powerful and in a super hero game if I didn't feel powerful I'd leave almost immediately. Otherwise I'd shut of xp as soon as possible and never change my settings above -1/1.
Avs are just sacks of hp that get boring after awhile. multiple avs at once can be entertaining though.
GM´s are just giant sacks of hp with no ai quirks other than running all over trhe place.
In a word: No.
The reward/time benefit ratio is skewed pretty heavily towards unfun and boring for most. Not to mention the fact that a build has to be pretty seriously twinked out before you can put the hurt on either. Few people have the spontaneity combined with a proper build that will allow them to just decide "I think I will go solo GM hunting today... ho hum".
I think AVs are more reasonable to solo- they offer more of a challenge/threat than GMs.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Quote:
This, too
|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
In a game about super heroes and super villains I find myself unsatisfied with being classified as lower than the named characters in the game. Much lower as it is.
In the quest to be truly super I find defeating the likes of other well recognized supers like Requiem, Infernal, Statesman, Positron, et al to be a pretty major step in achieving that goal. Was I pretty stoked strolling in to IP the other day and seeing a creature towering over the freighter it was next to and deciding to kill it on my own? Yes. The fight is often boring as sin, but the thought of taking out the biggest and the baddest/toughest in the game means my super powered character is at least as powerful as they are. |
Quote:
I always thought regular non-zone event or GM spawned Giant Monsters (like the ones that hang out on Monster Island) aren't even worth Merits. I mean, if they are then why aren't heroes swarming the hive and monster island tearing apart giant DE for speed merits?|
Originally Posted by Godpants
Well, each GM you drop will give you two shiny merits.
Don't spend 'em all at once, now. |
still sad Jack nerfed the XP/Inf rewards from tangling with them so hard back in the day the only reason to fight them is for a badge...and 2 shiny merits. Maybe someday Posi will revise Giant Monsters to make 'em worth fighting again. Seriously, you fight off a giant octopus attacking the port and you get...5 inf and devilfish! Don't spend all that renown you earned stopping a rampaging Giant Monster attacking the city in one place, champ. Remember in year 1 a level 30 could gain a few levels fighting off Lusca. And Baby Krakens in the sewer trial, oh lordy. lol.
Quote:
Yeah, it wasn't quite as thrilling on a Thugs/Poison. "You summoned your pets? Let me get some friends for them to play with." |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Try doing so as a ninja/poison mastermind. Having him summoning 8 or more bane spider bosses was very very dangerous. But it did give Poison Bloom some serious Gloat points. She traveled into the future, killed Recluse at the moment of his final victory, then threw the bloody helmet down at Recluse's feet when telling him to leave her alone.
|
Gang war distracts them enough to neuter that threat. >.<
As far as the OP, if it's "To see if you can" or "bragging rights," sure, it's worth it. If it's in search of some great reward (tons of merits, etc.) no. Pre-IO, I know there was some controller (probably Ill/ something) that soloed Lusca. Took many, many hours and many deaths, but (s)he did finish it, as far as I recall.
And I've got to agree with the "Solo with something unusual (or no preparation)" side of the argument. Some builds are "known GM/AV killers," others aren't. It's like hearing someone say "I hit 180 Mph." If they follow it with "In my sports car/airplane/sport bike," meh, ok, have fun with that. If they follow it with "in my modified Yugo," that will raise an eyebrow and be worth seeing, just for laughs.
Quote:
Monster Island = monsters, not GMs, last I recall seeing.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
I always thought regular non-zone event or GM spawned Giant Monsters (like the ones that hang out on Monster Island) aren't even worth Merits. I mean, if they are then why aren't heroes swarming the hive and monster island tearing apart giant DE for speed merits?
|
Quote:
| still sad Jack nerfed the XP/Inf rewards from tangling with them so hard back in the day the only reason to fight them is for a badge...and 2 shiny merits. Maybe someday Posi will revise Giant Monsters to make 'em worth fighting again. Seriously, you fight off a giant octopus attacking the port and you get...5 inf and devilfish! Don't spend all that renown you earned stopping a rampaging Giant Monster attacking the city in one place, champ. Remember in year 1 a level 30 could gain a few levels fighting off Lusca. And Baby Krakens in the sewer trial, oh lordy. lol. |
Quote:
Aw, but see, I've always liked being a wussy character. Not, like, pathetic, but...|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
In a game about super heroes and super villains I find myself unsatisfied with being classified as lower than the named characters in the game. Much lower as it is.
In the quest to be truly super I find defeating the likes of other well recognized supers like Requiem, Infernal, Statesman, Positron, et al to be a pretty major step in achieving that goal. |
Well admit it. Spider-Man is way cooler than Jean Grey as the Phoenix. He is.
I mean, he's not a pushover, by any means, but in the Marvel Universe, his superpowers rank down near the Morlocks.
The Phoenix is pretty much the next best thing to fiery birdy space-Jesus.
And yet. Spider-Man. Way cooler.
Just throwing that out there.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
Quote:
I don't know about other servers, but on Champion (in my experience, at least) teams form fairly regularly to take down GMs when they spawn just because they're a relatively small investment of time and effort for two merits. Mostly it's Babbage, Paladin and the Croatoa monsters because they're easy to get to and spawn pretty frequently, but Adamastor, Jurassik, and Kraken teams aren't all that rare either. Lusca does have the "too much effort for too little reward" problem, though.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Though I will agree with this. (And events. Really. As "new" as it is, does anyone see people tackling the banners still?) I remember regularly seeing multiple teams dealing with Lusca. Now, nobody's interested. At least people will turn out to help a Synapse team with Babbage.
|
Are you sure cool is the word you are looking for?
Or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLqsdPUfnno
What spider man has working on his side is writers making sure every encounter ends with him in the way that they want. Typically that is winning. What we have is writers (who's hands are pretty well tied) making sure that our actions have no impact on the world around us.
Spider man can get by being about as powerful as a bug vs my foot in the world of super heroes because someone is making sure that things fall in to place for that bug and my foot somehow loses. Or even easier to work around is that they never/rarely make the bug face off against my foot in the first place, instead making the bug go up against other bugs of similar size and power. CoX isn't really set up that way. At least not for solo adventures.
Quote:
As a matter of fact, outside of the one time I prevented Baron Zoria from unmaking reality, I've not really gone up against any elite bosses in my attempt to save the world.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Are you sure cool is the word you are looking for?
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLqsdPUfnno What spider man has working on his side is writers making sure every encounter ends with him in the way that they want. Typically that is winning. What we have is writers (who's hands are pretty well tied) making sure that our actions have no impact on the world around us. Spider man can get by being about as powerful as a bug vs my foot in the world of super heroes because someone is making sure that things fall in to place for that bug and my foot somehow loses. Or even easier to work around is that they never/rarely make the bug face off against my foot in the first place, instead making the bug go up against other bugs of similar size and power. CoX isn't really set up that way. At least not for solo adventures. |
And I'm not just a solo, I'm a solo squishy.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
Quote:
Spidy has faced down threats more powerful then himself. And he's done it multiple times. Actually, most of his usual foes are far more powerful then himself. He's faught the hulk before, alone. And while he couldn't stand up to the hulk in an up front fight, he did hold his own. Almost won too at the time. He could have won, but chose not to.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Are you sure cool is the word you are looking for?
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLqsdPUfnno What spider man has working on his side is writers making sure every encounter ends with him in the way that they want. Typically that is winning. What we have is writers (who's hands are pretty well tied) making sure that our actions have no impact on the world around us. Spider man can get by being about as powerful as a bug vs my foot in the world of super heroes because someone is making sure that things fall in to place for that bug and my foot somehow loses. Or even easier to work around is that they never/rarely make the bug face off against my foot in the first place, instead making the bug go up against other bugs of similar size and power. CoX isn't really set up that way. At least not for solo adventures. |
Spidy's faced Juggernaut multiple times. Sometimes alone, sometimes with allies. And no, he can't actually beat Juggernaut. And spidy knows it. All he (or anyone) can really do is slow Juggy down, make fulfilling his contract more trouble then it's worth. But THAT spiderman can do.
Doctor Octopus is one seriously nasty opponent. Think about it for a moment. He's nasty enough to challenge the Avengers. Yes, all of them at once. And yet Spiderman frequently battles Doc Oc alone. Spidy in those battles is way out of his league. He has to out think Doc Oc, because he can't really out fight him.
It's probably retroactively undone, but Spiderman fought a foe who he Could Not beat. Not without risking his own death due to radiation poisoning. This guy was trashing Spidy over the course of 8 or so hours of non-stop fighting. Again, he had to out think this foe to win. And even then, he almost lost.
What makes Spiderman cool isn't his world shaking power. He's not that strong. Yes, he is a canidate for "earth's mightiest heroes". But to be honest, it's not because of what his powers are. It's how he uses them. It's not his costume. That actually looks kind of dorky. It's that he's the proverbial underdog, and yet still manages to do the right thing. He's the weakest superhuman in the marvel universe (outside of Daredevil). And yet he can fit in with the Avengers.
It's the same thing that makes Captain (Steve Rogers) America so cool. He's NOT powerful. And yet he can hold his own with these powerhouses. He's a hero not because he can move mountains with his pinky, he can't. He's a hero because he TRIES to move that mountain. He goes up against the odds because it's the right thing to do, not because he's powerful enough to win.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
Then by default you haven't done any of the tasks that would involve saving the world in CoX.|
Originally Posted by Tramontane
As a matter of fact, outside of the one time I prevented Baron Zoria from unmaking reality, I've not really gone up against any elite bosses in my attempt to save the world.
And I'm not just a solo, I'm a solo squishy. |
There might be a few missions in the game (as I haven't parsed the entire mission database) that allow you to achieve more than stopping a local bank from being robbed without having to face a named character than is of EB/AV status, but they are few and far between.
If you look through the content where big things happen (especially in later levels, when our power starts to become noteworthy) found on this page:http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Hero_Merit_Rewards
virtually every arc that has something significant has an EB (most of which will scale to AV status if set for it). Almost every taskforce/trail where something big goes down has an AV/GM.
If you aren't prepared to take out named characters (of at least EB rank) then you are a second rate hero in this game if you plan to solo. Just the way it is. Of course, there is plenty of room in Paragon for people wearing tights and stopping muggers. If being as powerful as a whistle is all your hero needs then that is all you need.
I make heroes and villains powerful enough that anyone short of Statemans/Lord Recluse would be my errand boy instead of the other way around where we are on beck and call of characters as weak as Manticore... And given that my newest toon took down AV statesman in just over 4min, even incarnates would want me on speed dial for when trouble hits. The hero that managed to stop that bone daddy that one time...probably not who they'd look to for help unless really desperate.
It's sort of like this scene:
http://www.videovat.com/videos/2780/...he-rescue.aspx
Quote:
Thank you for agreeing with everything I just said in the post you quoted.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Spidy has faced down threats more powerful then himself. And he's done it multiple times. Actually, most of his usual foes are far more powerful then himself. He's faught the hulk before, alone. And while he couldn't stand up to the hulk in an up front fight, he did hold his own. Almost won too at the time. He could have won, but chose not to.
Spidy's faced Juggernaut multiple times. Sometimes alone, sometimes with allies. And no, he can't actually beat Juggernaut. And spidy knows it. All he (or anyone) can really do is slow Juggy down, make fulfilling his contract more trouble then it's worth. But THAT spiderman can do. Doctor Octopus is one seriously nasty opponent. Think about it for a moment. He's nasty enough to challenge the Avengers. Yes, all of them at once. And yet Spiderman frequently battles Doc Oc alone. Spidy in those battles is way out of his league. He has to out think Doc Oc, because he can't really out fight him. It's probably retroactively undone, but Spiderman fought a foe who he Could Not beat. Not without risking his own death due to radiation poisoning. This guy was trashing Spidy over the course of 8 or so hours of non-stop fighting. Again, he had to out think this foe to win. And even then, he almost lost. What makes Spiderman cool isn't his world shaking power. He's not that strong. Yes, he is a canidate for "earth's mightiest heroes". But to be honest, it's not because of what his powers are. It's how he uses them. It's not his costume. That actually looks kind of dorky. It's that he's the proverbial underdog, and yet still manages to do the right thing. He's the weakest superhuman in the marvel universe (outside of Daredevil). And yet he can fit in with the Avengers. It's the same thing that makes Captain (Steve Rogers) America so cool. He's NOT powerful. And yet he can hold his own with these powerhouses. He's a hero not because he can move mountains with his pinky, he can't. He's a hero because he TRIES to move that mountain. He goes up against the odds because it's the right thing to do, not because he's powerful enough to win. |
In case you are still wondering what the mystery is...its called writers.
Either fight ever-bigger and -badder stuff and be a real hero, or you're pathetic and weak and second-string? You seem to be a little more into the RP aspect of this than you care to admit there Frosticus.
Quote:
Ulberman the Unknown comes to mind. He's a Boss level enemy, and if you don't stop him he'll pretty much destroy the time stream and rewrite history.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Then by default you haven't done any of the tasks that would involve saving the world in CoX.
There might be a few missions in the game (as I haven't parsed the entire mission database) that allow you to achieve more than stopping a local bank from being robbed without having to face a named character than is of EB/AV status, but they are few and far between. |
Quote:
|
If you look through the content where big things happen (especially in later levels, when our power starts to become noteworthy) found on this page:http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Hero_Merit_Rewards virtually every arc that has something significant has an EB (most of which will scale to AV status if set for it). Almost every taskforce/trail where something big goes down has an AV/GM. |
Quote:
| If you aren't prepared to take out named characters (of at least EB rank) then you are a second rate hero in this game if you plan to solo. Just the way it is. Of course, there is plenty of room in Paragon for people wearing tights and stopping muggers. If being as powerful as a whistle is all your hero needs then that is all you need. |
Quote:
| I make heroes and villains powerful enough that anyone short of Statemans/Lord Recluse would be my errand boy instead of the other way around where we are on beck and call of characters as weak as Manticore... And given that my newest toon took down AV statesman in just over 4min, even incarnates would want me on speed dial for when trouble hits. The hero that managed to stop that bone daddy that one time...probably not who they'd look to for help unless really desperate. |
Who do you want saving the world, the guy who stops bank robberies (even if the robber has powers), or the guy who ONLY deals with cosmic threats? Me, I'd rather the guy who deals with street crimes be there. (S)he's not gonna forget about the innocents caught in the cross fire. When all you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I'd rather have someone versatile enough to realize not every problem requires the same solution saving the world.
Quote:
|
It's sort of like this scene: http://www.videovat.com/videos/2780/...he-rescue.aspx |
Poison Bloom (my villain main for a long time) had no real powers. And yet she can kill Lord Recluse. And she's beaten pretty much every member of the Vindicators and Freedom Phelanx to a pulp, multiple times. How does she do it? In the webcomic Magellan one of the main characters has no powers, in a world where all heroes have super powers. And yet she qualified to enter a superhero training academy. Not only that, but she preforms quite respectfully, and was key to saving the world.
Don't write off a hero because they don't have cosmic level powers. Or because they usually focus on street level crime instead of the cosmic level stuff.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
I think you completely misread what I was saying. You were denouncing characters who are less powerful as not being real heroes. I was giving examples of how one of Marvel's least powerful heroes demonstrates time and again they are heroic.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Thank you for agreeing with everything I just said in the post you quoted.
In case you are still wondering what the mystery is...its called writers. |
What is more heroic:
A normal person who dares to fight impossible odds and protect people.
or
Someone with superpowers who can trade punches with gods facing trvial danger to protect people.
Guys like Superman are interesting characters on the surface. And yet, their comic gets boring fast. The character is so powerful that nothing really threatens them. When Superman stops a bank robbery it's no big deal. When he fights terrorist cells it's not a challenge. When he fights most any super foe it's not a challenge to him. He's never in any real danger. The only danger is how much property damage will be caused during the fight. That Superman will win is a foregone conclusion, they can't beat him. Not without a 'magic bullet' type plot device. For all of superman's powers and abilities, he's boring to read about.
When Batman however goes after street punks he's in very real danger. One guy with a gun could kill him. And yet, he faces people with super powers. Batman's stories are interesting, because he stands a chance of failing. The badguy can beat him. He doesnt' always win. Batman has allies because he can't always do things alone. Batman can, and does push himself too hard. He's a character who's interesting to read about.
What makes Spiderman a good character isn't his powers. It's the fact he can fail, yet tries anyway.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
The thing is that the street-level characters you mention are still fighting characters who are EBs or AVs by City of Heroes standards. The Kingpin's nearest equivalent in COH is Tub Ci (AV), Guido Verandi (EB) or Emil Marcone (EB). The Rhino, depending on which appearances you go by, would line up reasonably to Atta (EB) or Wretch (AV).
As a general rule, villains who would merit cover position on a comic book are Elite Bosses or Archvillains, regardless of their "absolute" power level (street-level vs. world-shakers).
Quote:
Not always though. Many times the 'named' villain in CoH who's out to destroy the world is a named Boss enemy. For Spiderman for example, I would probably classify Vulture, Rhino, Scorpion, and maybe a few others as Boss class. Doc Oc would be an AV for sure, and Electro might be an EB or AV.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
The thing is that the street-level characters you mention are still fighting characters who are EBs or AVs by City of Heroes standards. The Kingpin's nearest equivalent in COH is Tub Ci (AV), Guido Verandi (EB) or Emil Marcone (EB). The Rhino, depending on which appearances you go by, would line up reasonably to Atta (EB) or Wretch (AV).
As a general rule, villains who would merit cover position on a comic book are Elite Bosses or Archvillains, regardless of their "absolute" power level (street-level vs. world-shakers). |
But then, the mechanics don't quite translate well from comic to video game. Especially when there's a leveling system. Spiderman's powers haven't changed much over the years. His skill in using them has though. His agility level never went up for example. But in CoH our powers do gain effectivness.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
I would actually classify all those characters as elite bosses or AVs. Named bosses who are not EBs tend to appear in a single mission or arc. Recurring characters are all elite boss or higher.
|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Not always though. Many times the 'named' villain in CoH who's out to destroy the world is a named Boss enemy. For Spiderman for example, I would probably classify Vulture, Rhino, Scorpion, and maybe a few others as Boss class. Doc Oc would be an AV for sure, and Electro might be an EB or AV.
|
Ok lets clarify what I've said because people obviously can't read what is actually written in front of them.
A. There are all different types of heroes (and villains). Ranging from ones like Superman all the way down to Robin.
B. In this game they would all have the enemy classification of "hero" or in common terms as we refer to them "AV" (simply a legacy title resulting from CoH coming along first).
C. Just like in our game the Hero class enemies can vary wildly in strength. Statesman is considerably stronger and more difficult to face than most other AV's such as Manticore. Yet both are Hero class enemies.
D. In the game world we rank below the lowest of the low. Your character, nor mine, ranks as powerful as the weakest Hero (AV) class enemy.
E. If you are ok with being weaker than Robin with your toon then fine, I'm not.
F. Is my character stronger than yours because I can kill almost any single threat in the game and yours can't? Yes. What do you want me to say? It is.
G. If you can't kill AV class enemies does that mean your character is weak? No. It may be focused on other things. But in is weaker than a character than can kill AV class enemies when looking at it from the perspective of killing tough enemies. It really isn't very complicated and I'm not sure why you guys are trying to make it more so than it is.
"Fluffy", of course, proved to be useless as he always does to me. I have nothing but intense hatred for that pet.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History