Quote:
.... ooh boy.|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Seems to me like White wins hands down with the foot stomp + the impressively large self heal. But maybe Black has something to offer that I don't understand that keeps it on par or better.
By the way, how does Dwarf form compare to the most durable of tankers? (Stone, Invuln, etc). Does it rank up there with them in terms of tankability, or do voids destroy them? Also, when you have a nictus in a spawn (or even a white nova or something) does that do extra damage to Khelds as well? |
Okay. First thing. Dwarf form is all resistance based, with 37.5% resistance to all damage. If you cap it into ED, you'll be pressing around 70%~72% resistance to everything. This is about the same amount of resistance that Dark, Willpower, and Fire tanks can generate to smashing / lethal damage when taking the fighting pool power tough,
If you've ever played a Dark or Fire tank, you've probably also experienced the fact that these are some of the squishiest tank armors in the game.
To it's advantage, the Dwarf form does come with an HP boost. Dwarf form will also stack with effects from other powers in the sets.
So, a White Dwarf can pop Essence Boost and wade into battle with really high HP cap. I've got a PB at 38, and popping and unslotted essence boost with Drawf lets me stride into battle with 2068 hp. That's better than most Tank's level 50 unboosted HP's.
With it's 6 minute recharge timer and 2 minute effect, you can also concievably make Essence Boost Permanent, as IO boosts remain in effect while transformed.
A White Dwarf with Perma Essence Boost can pretty much keep up with the best Willpower's.
***
However, there's a difference between taking damage... and tanking.
While the Dwarf Form does boost the threat level to 3, this is still behind the Tank's threat level of 4.
All Tanks also get an AOE taunt. White Drawf... doesn't.
White Dwarf only has 3 attacks, one of which is a PbAOE, and White Dwarf Antagonize, to hold aggro with. So, it's really easy to yank aggro away from a PB with damaging AOE's.
The Black Dwarf is a little bit better on the aggro holding front. It has 4 attacks, one of which is a +damage + acc modifier: Black Dwarf Mire. Black Dwarf Mire can be stacked with Eclipse and Sunless Mire, capping it's resistances all the way, and capping it's damage capability.
***
Ultimatly, both are incredibly tough in their dwarf forms, but WarShades are really the better aggro holders with a higher damage output that can make up for the lack of a taunt aura.
[Edit: je saist posted while I was writing. All I have to say is, I don't know where you were getting your info from, but you're completely wrong about aggro holding. Both white and black dwarf get an identical aoe taunt power, which can pretty reasonably keep aggro on about 5 enemies. Black dwarf gets *no* other aggro holding besides single target taunts in its attacks, while white dwarf gets a taunt effect on a PBAoE that will eventually be going off every 8-10 seconds. Black dwarfs by no means hold aggro better than white dwarfs. In fact, its quite emphatically the other way around. Also, you end up with almost 60% resistance to all but psi, not 70-72%.]
Black dwarf has better damage thanks to mire. Also, black dwarf drain with only 66% heal/rech slotting heals more over time than white dwarf sublimation with 95%/95%. So black dwarf is actually more damaging and has probably about as much survivability.
However, there is more to tanking than simple toughness, and it's here that the difference lies. Black dwarf mire has no taunt effect. Thus, without extreme slotting you're only going to keep 5 targets taunted, plus another 2 or 3 from your single target attacks. Quite simply, this is a royal pain in the butt. It is by far the most annoying thing I've found about playing my warshade - I jump into a spawn, toss out a taunt+mire, start hitting things, and then 2/3rds of them peel off as soon as anyone else throws an AoE.
On the other hand, white dwarf flare does have a taunt effect. Jump into a spawn and hit flare and taunt, and you've got aggro on 15 targets that's not letting go. Regardless of the small differences between them in other areas, this all by itself is enough to unambiguously give white dwarfs the tanking crown, in my opinion. Specifically for tanking, I would want a white dwarf over a black dwarf anyday.
Comparing them to tankers is a bit harder. By themselves, they're more or less tankers with no aggro auras, 58% resistance to all but psi, some form of self heal, and none of the other defensive tricks some tankers have. On their own, they're more or less in the same ballpark, but they're definitely not equal to granite/invul vs S/L/etc. Put em on a team with 3 scrappers/blasters (peacebringer) or 3 defenders/tanks (warshade), though, and suddenly they're running around with 85% resist all, which makes them quite competitive indeed. (On a side note, peacebringers get resistance from offensive teammates, which is another reason why I think they're better at tanking. You hardly *need* 85% resist all if there's 3 defenders/tankers on the team, after all!)
Voids don't 'destroy' dwarf form khelds, since the quantum damage is no longer unresistable. They're still threats and do a fair chunk of damage, of course, but as long as you put them down reasonably quickly it's not too bad.
As far as I know, nictus/novas/dwarves that appear in spawns don't do extra damage. I believe it's just voids/quants.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Disregard anything from je_saist's post, he's notorious for posting incorrect information.
QR:
Just wanted to add that with the inherent now carrying over, it's not uncommon to be at the Kheld resist cap (85%) to all but psi while on a team in dwarf form. Most people also pick white dwarf as the better for tanking because the heal doesn't require a tohit check (ie. more reliable), in addition to the taunt effect in Dwarf Flare. Black Dwarf's do ok though, and with a bit of support can be real monster scrankers.
Quote:
Ooh boy, indeed.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
.... ooh boy.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Okay. First thing. Dwarf form is all resistance based, with 37.5% resistance to all damage. If you cap it into ED, you'll be pressing around 70%~72% resistance to everything. This is about the same amount of resistance that Dark, Willpower, and Fire tanks can generate to smashing / lethal damage when taking the fighting pool power tough,
|
The plus side is that you get bonus resistance for every person of certain ATs on your team. Cosmic Balance and Dark Sustenance now work in forms. White dwarfs with blasters and scrappers on the team will be harder to kill. Black dwarfs with other tankers and defenders on the team will be harder to kill.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
If you've ever played a Dark or Fire tank, you've probably also experienced the fact that these are some of the squishiest tank armors in the game.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
A White Dwarf with Perma Essence Boost can pretty much keep up with the best Willpower's.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
However, there's a difference between taking damage... and tanking.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
All Tanks also get an AOE taunt. White Drawf... doesn't.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
White Dwarf only has 3 attacks, one of which is a PbAOE, and White Dwarf Antagonize, to hold aggro with. So, it's really easy to yank aggro away from a PB with damaging AOE's.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
The Black Dwarf is a little bit better on the aggro holding front. It has 4 attacks, one of which is a +damage + acc modifier: Black Dwarf Mire. Black Dwarf Mire can be stacked with Eclipse and Sunless Mire, capping it's resistances all the way, and capping it's damage capability.
|
To your other questions: A very expensive kheldian built specifically for tanking will be able to surpass an SO'd tank, but that's just the IOs at that point. A PB/WS will never measure up to a real tanker in terms of durability or aggro holding, but this is by design.
This is not to say that a kheldian cannot tank. Quite the opposite. Especially on teams, kheldians become quite formidable and durable. My warshade has tanked AVs for teams without giving up aggro to the shield scrapper, which I find to be quite the accomplishment.
Void damage is resistable these days, and nothing worth worrying about. The other nictus do not do extra damage to you.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Yes it does, all Dwarfs get an AOE Taunt, the Antagonize powers. They're ToHit needed (unlike Tank and Brute versions) 15ft, 5 target Taunts. They do have decent Accuracy though.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
....*
All Tanks also get an AOE taunt. White Drawf... doesn't. |
If you mean Taunt Aura then yep, neither gets that and only White Dwarfs get an AOE Punchvoke power.
Last time I checked, the Dwarf Taunt is not single target. It is a 15 foot radius sphere aoe with a maximum of five targets.
I'm at work right now, and can't check in game, but if my (sometimes spotty) memory serves it is indeed an AoE taunt.
EDIT - NVM - Carnifax scooped me.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I'll throw in my reasons why I can tank better with my black dwarf than my white.
1. Secondary effect of slowing the attacks of the enemies mean I get beat up less.
2. When I compare my tactics for hitting the large groups I get a lot of support from my essences which throws it to Black Dwarf's favor. Without the pets, White Dwarf gets a huge headstart.
PB - summon seekers, superspeed in and Pulsar, build up, Solar Flare, switch to Dwarf, start the tanking stuff
WS - have 1-3 essences, tp in, human mire, dwarf, start the tanking stuff
3. Eclipse carries over to Black Dwarf form
But both can tank pretty well in a pinch.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Edit: NVM I been drinking *hic*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
No he also asked for a comparison with tankers and specifically mentioned stone and invulnerability.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
IMHO, that depends on your definition of tanking. If - by tanking - you're referring to keeping your teammates safe by killing your enemies, then I'd agree that Black Dwarf is a much better tank than White Dwarf.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I'll throw in my reasons why I can tank better with my black dwarf than my white.
1. Secondary effect of slowing the attacks of the enemies mean I get beat up less. 2. When I compare my tactics for hitting the large groups I get a lot of support from my essences which throws it to Black Dwarf's favor. Without the pets, White Dwarf gets a huge headstart. PB - summon seekers, superspeed in and Pulsar, build up, Solar Flare, switch to Dwarf, start the tanking stuff WS - have 1-3 essences, tp in, human mire, dwarf, start the tanking stuff 3. Eclipse carries over to Black Dwarf form But both can tank pretty well in a pinch. |
However, in terms of pure (ie - pure as in: does nothing else) aggro management and self-contained survivability, I'd have to argue that White Dwarf wins out (but only slightly).
White Dwarf has two AoE taunts, knockdown mitigation and a self-contained heal.
Black Dwarf has one AoE taunt, slow mitigation, and a heal with an accuracy check.
By the Black Dwarf's definition of tanking, anyone who pwns from a position of relative safety is a tanker.
Now, is the Black Dwarf more powerful than the White Dwarf? Exponentially. My SO'd Black Dwarf makes my IO'd White Dwarf whimper with envy. Not only do eclipse and sunless mire carry over into dwarf form, but Black Dwarf's AoE attack is also a damage-buffing mire (hence the absence of a taunt effect) - to say nothing (as you rightly point out) of the fluffies. Add the damage from the self heal verses the no damage from White Dwarf's self heal and a Black Dwarf is a killin' machine.
However, killin' ain't tankin'. Like it or not, a Black Dwarf keeps a team safe the same way a scrapper does: in-yer-face enforced nap-time for the baddies. White Dwarf can't do that nearly so well - even on his best day. But the White Dwarf can afford to miss when he's fighting purples, because his heal is self contained, and if he misses with Antagonize, then the odds are in favor of a streak-breaker hit on Flare. He keeps the team alive just as effectively, but he does it as more of a meat shield.
In other words, he tanks.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
My PB is my favorite character, but my WS Tanker form was more enjoyable to play than my PB Tanker form.
tl;dr White Dwarf is a pseudo-tank. Black Dwarf is a pseudo-scrapper.
/thread
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
And Red Dwarf is a TV show.
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
tl;dr White Dwarf is a pseudo-tank. Black Dwarf is a pseudo-scrapper.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
If you've ever played a Dark or Fire tank, you've probably also experienced the fact that these are some of the squishiest tank armors in the game.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Of course, Dark Armor Sucks. Please refer to my sig.
|
As for Dwarf Form, I tend to agree that White dwarf is more tanky where Black Dwarf is more scrappy. Both can handle damage soaking without too much difficulty, and both have a heal to prolong the beatings, but If you're specifically wanting the aggro control abilities from a Tank, then White Dwarf will get you closer to what you want.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
Thank you all for the well written and elaborate descriptions, any questions I had have been cleared up. If I really want to tank, I'll make a tanker. I'll make Kheldians when I want to be a Kheldian, and I'm sure I'll be very satisfied with what they're capable of.
Quote:
The problem with (Unbound) Nictus, is they tend to be resistant to your attacks. So are Voids, although I used to think Galaxies were resistant, too. That just makes the combat a little longer, though, the problem with Voids and Quantums is the immediate danger they represent, which really just requires you to keep on your toes.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
As far as I know, nictus/novas/dwarves that appear in spawns don't do extra damage. I believe it's just voids/quants.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Thank you all for the well written and elaborate descriptions, any questions I had have been cleared up. If I really want to tank, I'll make a tanker. I'll make Kheldians when I want to be a Kheldian, and I'm sure I'll be very satisfied with what they're capable of.
|
Both dwarf forms do an okay job of filling in if you don't have a tank on the team. If you want somthing for full time tanking you are probably better off with a tank or possibly a brute.
Some good points made; I'll just add that from watching my friends PB tank, he can do it more survivably against tough foes then my WS. I think the footstomp PbAoE mitigates more damage then the slow from my dark PbAoE, and the self heal that doesn't need a target is also handy against a wider variety of foes. Self capping resists with Eclipse doesn't help as much as you'd think, since on a team large enough to have to worry about survivability at all both Dwarves are probably capped for resists thanks to the Kheld inherent. My friends PB was the only "tank" along for a Shard TF, and while he died a few times, thats not unusual for a tank either as the Rularuu are no joke.
Where a WS shines is being a tankmage, I've practically soloed ambush spawns in the ITF while the tank was busy up front. Being a flying AoE blaster with capped resists and backup (fluffies) is quite nice, and provides a useful form of tanking in that the part of the team in my area wasn't pulling much aggro away from me. It takes an expensive triform build to be able to do that, though.
Seems to me like White wins hands down with the foot stomp + the impressively large self heal. But maybe Black has something to offer that I don't understand that keeps it on par or better.
By the way, how does Dwarf form compare to the most durable of tankers? (Stone, Invuln, etc). Does it rank up there with them in terms of tankability, or do voids destroy them?
Also, when you have a nictus in a spawn (or even a white nova or something) does that do extra damage to Khelds as well?