Some thoughts on the Dark Mirror arcs
I know that there are quite a lot of co-op storytelling in the indie movement, but I'm a trad tabletop roleplayer and don't give a flying fsck about the conventions in co-op storytelling indie RPGs.
|
Secondly, how is an arbitrary narrator telling you "you think this" any different than an in game psychic telling you "you think this"? Telling your players what your character would realistically think is something that even a good GM has to do sometimes, especially when you're operating with certain skills and attempting to force the players to actually enforce character knowledge versus player knowledge. No matter how many times I tell my players that they think that there aren't any traps on that chest, player knowledge is going to tell them that there is a trap there, regardless of whether their character would actually think that having checked the chest to the best of their abilities.
Remember, the story arcs in the games already control our actions and decision making processes. The stories force you to arrest enemies rather than kill, maim, or otherwise render them incapable of going back to a life of crime. If you fail a mission in which you have to stop the villains from destroying the world, the world doesn't end. If you have a character that is supposed to be able to read minds, why can't you tell when <insert individual here> is going to stab you in the back or is lying?
In CoX (and virtually every other video game out there), the player isn't controlling the character. The player is simply running combat for that character and is instead getting to ride along as the developers tell them a story that the character they made is taking part in. There may be some options that the player gets to choose for the character, but the character doesn't have the option to switch sides or do anything that would ruin the story later on.
I'm not sure I can agree with you here.
While it's very true that I HATE having a story tell me what my character thinks or feels, I don't think this extends to telling me what I REMEMBER. Unless my character concept involves his inability to form short-term memory or his inability to access it on demand (which creates problems beyond just this instance), I don't see why this is a problem. It's the narrative telling you that something you've experienced or witnessed is suddenly important and relevant.
In a game without a third-party narrator, there really isn't a very good way to do this without actually introducing one, which in itself is a bigger problem, at least as far as I'm concerned. In another game with a different narrative, maybe, but not here. Unless you want to hand out earpieces from every contact so they can constantly go "Oh, yeah, that! Remember that?" you kind of have to. And, trust me, that option is actually WORSE. One of the biggest failures in City of Heroes storytelling is that your character comes off like a dumb mute without an ounce of initiative, a kind of mindless drone that just follows instructions. Having the stories write at least the most basic intelligence in the form of a character having the ability to remember what happened last mission and even get his own ideas... That's a step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.
Granted, we can always simply disregard what the mission briefing is telling us and tell our own stories in our head, and many people have advised me to do just that in the past. It's still a worst-case-scenario solution, however, as I'd rather that, if the game is going to tell a story, that THE GAME tells the story. If I'll be writing my own stories, I might as well just grind papers, which is NOT what I want to do with my time. There are stories there already, and I very much EXPECT them to write more proactive involvement for my character.
Basically, having the game simply never have your character do something on his own is the most generic you can get, so that the player can fill in the blanks with every minute detail. It's also about the most boring, uninteresting, uninvolving way to write a story, because there's basically NOTHING there. You're completely irrelevant, one nameless pawn that exists for the sole reason of hitting Next and nothing more. The story runs along on its own. You're just there to witness it. This doesn't help immersion. At all. This takes immersion behind the shed and beats it to death with a shovel. It's like NPCs constantly reminding me "You are a player. This character you are playing is a fictional construct of computer data. Your role is to click buttons."
A game needs to balance user freedom with writing for the user, but this isn't done by NEVER writing for the user at all. As a point of fact, I'd take Mass Effect over Dragon Age any day, and for one reason above all else - Commander Shepard speaks and gets called by name.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Secondly, how is an arbitrary narrator telling you "you think this" any different than an in game psychic telling you "you think this"? Telling your players what your character would realistically think is something that even a good GM has to do sometimes, especially when you're operating with certain skills and attempting to force the players to actually enforce character knowledge versus player knowledge. No matter how many times I tell my players that they think that there aren't any traps on that chest, player knowledge is going to tell them that there is a trap there, regardless of whether their character would actually think that having checked the chest to the best of their abilities.
|
HOWEVER
You don't have to use phrases like "you think" and "you feel." In fact, doing this is probably one of THE worst things you can do with writing a story arc, if for no reason other than because there are plenty of other ways to do it that end up with the same effect but presume a lot less. For instance, instead of saying "You thought a Freakshow hideout would be more cluttered." you could just say "You'd think a Freakshow hideout would be more cluttered." It says practically the same thing, but one is an explanation of what YOU think whereas the other is a general statement of average expectations.
Or let's look at a harder example: "You feel scared as you enter the cave." This is BAD. A better example would be "You enter a scary-looking cave." That way the narrative gives you its appraisal of what feeling you're SUPPOSED to have, but without enforcing you to actually HAVE that feeling if you don't want to.
You can write a story for a player that's just as railroading as ours are and still make it FEEL like it's generic. It's all about word choice.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Remember, the story arcs in the games already control our actions and decision making processes.
|
My favourite arc is still Ghost Widow's patron arc, because I identify myself not only with my character but with Ghost Widow as well, and when it comes to the betrayal part, I don't get the pathos smashed to bits by telling me in the clumsiest way what I feel. I was seriously considering to not complete the arc - to make myself the choice that the system didn't have.
But the Dark Mirrors arcs? No. Didn't work. It had the potential, but no. It's a good story, but bad storytelling. It may be as straght-forward and linear and potentially compelling as the Ghost Widow arc, but by removing the little illusion of "my story" there was - the blank, if you like - they didn't make me look forward to the journey.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
<snark>
Because the first serious attempt to move the story telling forward is going to get it 'right' the first time?
</snark>
It is still a step forward, even acknowledging that I may be thinking something is better than telling me endlessly what everyone around me is always thinking. Which is one of my great gripes about many of the arcs I've played so many times. I recognize that it could be better, but I am so pleased at the 'progress over perfection' that I still grade it well.
And branching is coming, right? Isn't that seemingly a big part of the GR promise - good vs. evil choices? And, I consider the doppleganger arcs the practice. GR should improve, or my grading won't be on a curve anymore.
My favourite arc is still Ghost Widow's patron arc, because I identify myself not only with my character but with Ghost Widow as well, and when it comes to the betrayal part, I don't get the pathos smashed to bits by telling me in the clumsiest way what I feel. I was seriously considering to not complete the arc - to make myself the choice that the system didn't have.
But the Dark Mirrors arcs? No. Didn't work. It had the potential, but no. It's a good story, but bad storytelling. It may be as straght-forward and linear and potentially compelling as the Ghost Widow arc, but by removing the little illusion of "my story" there was - the blank, if you like - they didn't make me look forward to the journey. |
Ghost widow wants to... Live again. Oh, no, the horror! It burns! Must... Stop... Wait, what? Why am I bothered that she'll live again? Doh, right. I'm not! So the only reason I actually go out and betray Ghost Widow is because Daos pulled his pants down and waved his willy in my general direction. In fact, I'm actually horrified you don't so much as mention THAT elephant in the room, yet get hung up on the game telling you how you feel? Dude, I would gladly be told how I felt at the time if the game let me slap Daos across the mouth and wagged my finger at him, even if that put me behind the 8ball.
And you don't need branching storylines to fix THAT mess. You could have simply written the arc with a more imaginative reason for me to betray my Patron, like, say "Oops! Didja know she needs a you-shaped sacrifice? Bet that's gonna' suck, boy howdy!" I might still not have liked it from a meta-game perspective, but it would have made sense. Caving in because Daos gave me the evil eye is just cheap, especially considering his soldiers around like errant puppies for 40 levels know, and I've knocked out so many of his bases I ran out of notebook to write them all down. And yet I still cave in to him like a good puppy.
Compared to THAT? Yeah, I'll take the Dark Mirrir arcs any day. In fact, I'd take the Dark Mirror arcs over ALL OF COV, because I'm sick and tired of that stupid railroading, presumptuous storyline. I'd rather be told what I think and what I want if what I think and what I want are what I ACTUALLY REALLY think and want, rather than the game sort of quietly assuming what that might be and forcing me to be carry the idiot ball in an idiot plot. Ugh!
If the Dark Mirror arcs are a taste of things to come, then Going Rogue will be GRRREAT!
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
If the Dark Mirror arcs are a taste of things to come, then Going Rogue will be GRRREAT!
|
And knowing is half the battle!
The Story of a Petless MM with a dream
I have a 50 in every AT, but Scrappers and Dominators are my favorites.
You can never* tell him what he thinks. As soon as you do that, you take his character away from him. It's no longer his.
|
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
But I'm not talking about the story. I'm talking about the telling of it.
Ghost widow wants to... Live again. Oh, no, the horror! It burns! Must... Stop... Wait, what? Why am I bothered that she'll live again? Doh, right. I'm not! So the only reason I actually go out and betray Ghost Widow is because Daos pulled his pants down and waved his willy in my general direction.
|
In the other cases, I want to betray my patrons. In two of the cases because they're out to kill me, and in Emo-boy's case because he's about to undo the game, which is bad because without a game... So in those cases it's more like self-preservation against... well, nothing. There's nothing to lose.
So why not? I don't even think twice about betraying Emo-boy, Sushi-man or Bullsh*t (endearing nicknames, isn't it? it shows how much I care about these characters). "You don't need to wave John Thomas in my direction, mr Daos - I'll gladly kill him for you for free. Where do you want me to deliver his head?"
Ghost Widow is the odd man (or woman as it were) out: in this case, it's self-preservation against the affection of a quite likable character. I don't want to kill her, but it's her or me, because Daos would rather want a dead bound Widow than a live free one. It is a choice that matters so much that people (not all of them, but at least me and some other voices I've read on the board before the EU/US merge) seriously considered to force it by not completing the arc.
And if people care about a character that much, the authors are doing something right. There is a hard choice right there. Hard choices are all about conflicts, conflicts are drama, and if the hard choice is yours, well, the drama is yours.
Yes, the story is about as paper thin as the other arcs, but it is well told.
I like the Dark Mirror stories. I just don't like the way they were told.
I'd rather be told what I think and what I want if what I think and what I want are what I ACTUALLY REALLY think and want, rather than the game sort of quietly assuming what that might be and forcing me to be carry the idiot ball in an idiot plot.
|
And this time I didn't even have the illusion that the story was about me.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
While checking up on the thread you skim over your original post and suddenly realize that you were completely wrong. You actually quite enjoy the mission author telling you what your character is thinking. "Must have been the lack of caffeine." You think to yourself as you mentally shrug your shoulders and continue on to the next thread.
|
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
It shocks me that this would be your complaint...
As opposed to the carefully cloned robots or users of magic items. How about the Ensorcelled villains of the Isles who's only power lies in magical effects placed on them? Or guys and gals wearing powersuits. "Cloning" just doesn't work for these characters.
Sometimes you just have to accept the limitations of the medium and move on. Gloss over the gold text, or the fact that Overkillbot9000 is being cloned in vats rather than produced on assembly lines.
-Rachel-
Current Published Arcs
#1 "Too Drunk to be Alcoholic" Arc #48942
#2 "To Slay Sleeping Dragons" Arc #111486
#3 "Stop Calling Me"
I find it odd that you pick this particular series of missions, the only missions that ever gave you any choice or sense of freedom at all, to aim your complaint about hostile character take over. Every mission up to this point, save a few missions where you can choose to do nothing and have some sense of moral superiority about it, has been an entirely scripted event where you were along for the ride and merely doing whatever your contact told you to do with your only other option being to just abandon the mission and pretend they didn't exist.
To point at the only arc in the game trying to break this trend and accuse it of stealing your character feels a bit asinine, especially when it offers a level of game play innovation that is usually saved for Task/Strike Forces on top of everything else. So, no, I will not be joining you in any rear-end diplomacy.
Sometimes people don't question How Things Are until they first see something that hints that maybe they don't have to be.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
I find it odd that you pick this particular series of missions, the only missions that ever gave you any choice or sense of freedom at all, to aim your complaint about hostile character take over. Every mission up to this point, save a few missions where you can choose to do nothing and have some sense of moral superiority about it, has been an entirely scripted event where you were along for the ride and merely doing whatever your contact told you to do with your only other option being to just abandon the mission and pretend they didn't exist.
|
My point is that by attributing me, the player, with the author's thoughts, the illusion is shattered. There is no longer anything hiding that the arc is a scripted linear series of events. I have exactly the amount of room to maneuver in the Mirrors arc as I had before in every other arc (that is, zilch! nada! nothing!), but now they have stolen the (non-functioning) steering wheel and don't even pretend to fool me that I'm not just a passenger for the ride.
I want my illusion back. It's as simple as that. Even if it is just an illusion.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
Ghost Widow is the odd man (or woman as it were) out: in this case, it's self-preservation against the affection of a quite likable character. I don't want to kill her, but it's her or me, because Daos would rather want a dead bound Widow than a live free one. It is a choice that matters so much that people (not all of them, but at least me and some other voices I've read on the board before the EU/US merge) seriously considered to force it by not completing the arc.
|
More specifically, the story point sucks because, yet again, IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS! There are dozens of legitimate reasons to convince a player to choose to do this, even if there is no practical choice in the matter. Or if you're going to go the crapsack world needlessly depressing approach, then at least give me a choice in the matter.
Yeah, Daos does what he's told. Yeah, Recluse needs her dead more than alive. Yeah, Arachnos threatens to beat me up. So? Let 'em. The game can use a bit more confrontation that's instigated by our characters, rather than instigated by the contacts where we're sent as their agents. Daos says "Jump!" I say "You and what army!" I'm roped into a needlessly difficult fight and I instantly feel better about the world around me. That is, as far as I'm concerned, what a good story should be ABOUT.
...here's the problem: author's are not mind-readers. I was thinking and wanting one thing, and suddenly I was told I thought and wanted something else, and had to carry the idiot ball in an idiot plot anyway. |
And this time I didn't even have the illusion that the story was about me. |
Later on, Leonard's is even more about you. He basically spends two missions telling you "We need this, we need that." and then basically says "We'll handle the rest. You kick your feet up." Pretty much the rest of the missions from there is YOU going out to find out a few secrets behind his back because YOU want to find out the secrets, not because someone told you you should find them. And my jaw actually dropped when I got Dean in my nav window, because I was just wondering how I would find that information. Well, obviously, call D-Mac and have him find it for me. Of course!
Sure, the arcs do go out of their way to tell me what I want and what I'm after, but I can easily deal with that as long as the story is about what my character wants and what my character is after. I'd sooner have a story be about me even if I don't get to pick how I'm depicted than have a story that I'm unimportant to that's generic. If I want generic stuff, I'll run paper missions or go streethunt.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I'm very aware that every arc's illusion of choice is just that: an illusion. They are all scripted linear events. That includes the Dark Mirror arcs.
My point is that by attributing me, the player, with the author's thoughts, the illusion is shattered. There is no longer anything hiding that the arc is a scripted linear series of events. I have exactly the amount of room to maneuver in the Mirrors arc as I had before in every other arc (that is, zilch! nada! nothing!), but now they have stolen the (non-functioning) steering wheel and don't even pretend to fool me that I'm not just a passenger for the ride. I want my illusion back. It's as simple as that. Even if it is just an illusion. |
I certainly didn't come away from the mission feeling as though I had been puppeted along, at any rate; I felt very much in control, much more than any other arc I've run ever. Perhaps I'll play through again, but that was the general feeling of the arc after two runs through it as I recall.
I understand the general complaint, but it hardly deserves to be aimed at this arc in particular.
It shocks me that this would be your complaint...
As opposed to the carefully cloned robots or users of magic items. How about the Ensorcelled villains of the Isles who's only power lies in magical effects placed on them? Or guys and gals wearing powersuits. "Cloning" just doesn't work for these characters. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Current Published Arcs
#1 "Too Drunk to be Alcoholic" Arc #48942
#2 "To Slay Sleeping Dragons" Arc #111486
#3 "Stop Calling Me"
please rewrite the mission texts of the Dark Mirrors arcs in such a way that they don't steal my character.
|
If they did rewrite this mission instead of saying, "You think that X is Y," it would say something along the lines of "It seems that X is Y," or the contact would say that he thinks X is Y instead of putting those thoughts in your character's mind.
It's probably a conscious decision in the writing guidelines for the new missions to use the second person when you have choices. The conceit is that it makes you feel more involved. The illusion of immersion is probably the goal. Unfortunately, different players react differently to certain wordings, and what immerses one player may alienate another...
I agree, it's all in the phrasing. "The room was tinged with the aura of fear." is less jarring than "You have a feeling of fear come over you."
Dec out.
I suggest that the author of the Dark Mirrors arcs gets a kick in his hiney.
I really like the Dark Mirror arcs, but there is one thing about them that I don't like. And the reason is the "you" part. "You realize you have a piece of paper", "you remember that thing" et cetera. The little yellow part at the bottom of each dialogue part that tell you what you do or think. And that is a great storytelling blunder.
If you ever play tabletop roleplaying games, you quickly learn the different lines that you can cross, can cross if you are allowed to, and can never cross. You can always tell a player what happens to him. You can sometimes tell things that he feels and how he reacts, for instance when the character is hurt. You can never* tell him what he thinks. As soon as you do that, you take his character away from him. It's no longer his.
In computer games, the identification between the player and the character is even more limited because the lack of tabletop roleplaying games' flexibility from a referee. That's why characters in RPGs often are mute, to provide you, the player, with a blank to fill in your character's response, or you are given a choice between certain reactions to emulate what you feel. You don't want to break the identification between the player and the character, because that kills immersion and thus kills the game.
Telling you, the player, what your character thinks means that the mission author just stole your character. If I recall correctly, the tips about Mission Architect even discourages from such behaviour. Still, that's what the author of the Dark Mirrors arcs just did. It looks to me as if the designers of the Dark Mirror arcs think like authors of books, not authors of computer games or even tabletop roleplaying games. There is a great story in the Dark Mirrors arcs, but it's told in a blatant and clumsy way.
I know that there are lots of people out there that don't read the mission text. It's a wall of text that you click away to get the red blammo on the map so you can rush there and smash things. I know that there are lots of people that read the mission text but does not care, because they just want a story.
But there are also lots of people that do care about having a good story told about their own characters, and on behalf of those I would like to revise the original suggestion: please rewrite the mission texts of the Dark Mirrors arcs in such a way that they don't steal my character.
Thank you.
* I know that there are quite a lot of co-op storytelling in the indie movement, but I'm a trad tabletop roleplayer and don't give a flying fsck about the conventions in co-op storytelling indie RPGs.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"