City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Can we get rid of Statesman now?

Aliona

By Aliona,
Posted on: 2010-05-19 08:53 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo View Post
Statesman dies or is killed, disappears. Recluse of primal earth leads the fight against Tyrant the man who murdered recluse in the praetorian universe and Recluse becomes primal earths reluctant hero.
ooo... that sounds like an interesting plot twist.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Stiki View Post
Well, I am sort of indifferent about old Statesman, I missed the whole Jack thing entirely almost so have never seen him as Statesman, but all I have to go on concenring him is, he stands around in a light of awesome, he makes the occasional speech, he can punch space ships out the sky and errm he punches villains in one arc but dont seem all that interested in punching villains. I mean he seems to have a bit of a odd edge to him as well, he dont seem to mind that Longbow go about beating on people in the streets of Mercy, some of which might not even be escappes from the zig.

Yet when Arachnos sends its soldiers to Paragon to rough some heroes up, they are the scum of the universe! Even though Recluse don't do that much he is a more interesting character than Statesman, he does have a vision, he is working towards something, and it seems now despite his vendetta against statesman its more Liberty who is interested in trying to reason with Recluse. Where as States as a whole seems to stand around going LOL RECLUSE. Even the reason on the vendetta seems to be more because Statesman is now a figurehead for good not for anything hes done recently. Maybe the books expand on this, I am just going on what we see or what I have seen in game.

So just going on that Statesman dont seem to really do much of anything though I dont hate the character as I dont think of him as Jack so humm in game thus far removing him wouldnt really matter but the devs no do have a chance to make him show what hes really about and perhaps make him more likable or at least give him a personality of his own.
Yeah. But with that thought, why not get rid of all the Freedom Phalanx? None of them do anything in the game but exactly what you said.

And Liberty trying to reason with Recluse? She formed a military style SG to take him out. Not reason with him.

Statesman is part of cannon. Just because you don't find him to be anything interresting, doesn't stop the fact that he's a big part of CoH Lore.

And frankly, when I see these comments I see either...

1) I can't seperate Jack Emmert from Statesman...so I fail!

or

2) The same can be said for any other NPC hero in the game. All any of them do is stand around.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
Well, the Rikti mothership in White Plains (which then became the Rikti Crash Site, which later became the Rikti War Zone) was put there by Statesman single-handed...

Of course, that makes one wonder why he didn't destroy the other motherships.
He did. Only, after dropping that first one you mentioned right on top of the city, he decided it might be a better idea to push the others out over the water before trashing them...

However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Yeah. But with that thought, why not get rid of all the Freedom Phalanx? None of them do anything in the game but exactly what you said.
Throw in the Longbow and you've got a deal.

Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!

 

Posted

Well it was just my opinion of Statesman, I guess its true that msot of them don't do a lot though, I was thinking more its odd Statesman is hardly mentioned, and by reasoning with Recluse I ment, the man himself, Liberty is trying to get rid of Recluses army with Longbow,(Something she probably should be hated more than statesman for :P) But she intends to try to reason and bring Recluse, her uncle back. Or am I getting her confused with somone else Sister psyc possibly? Sorry been a while.

But Statesman has no such story, it would be nice to say see him heading a group of heroes on risky missions, attacking the Rikti, as to me they are probably a bigger threat than Recluse at the moment at least, though on the flip side I would like to see Recluse get more proactive as well, after all he is number one baddie well joint baddie with nemesis yet dont seem to do much.

in short I agree you could get rid of most main characters in this game and you probably wouldnt notice, but Statesman is the face of this game, so you would think he would be seen about a lot more often, though I actually wish they all could be more active, I mean I ahve never seen some of them at all ever.

The end is just a new beginning, Goodbye all my coh friends and even the enemies, its been a blast I will miss you all. Thank you Paragon team, you gave me a home from home I will always appriciate it.

 

Posted

I propose the opposite. I think they need to remind the people just how powerful Statesman really is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F6haXe-1XI

"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

Posted

Pertaining to the idea that the books make States out to be more of a hero: I was under the impression that neither the comic books nor the novels were cannon and therefore we have to only consider that lore which is available in game. Since not all of us care to pay any attention to things outside the game, and since we're talking about a game, I would think that for the purposes of this kind of discussion we should do so anyway.

Pertaining to the difference between "getting rid of" and "retiring" him: Come on. When has anyone ever used the phrase "getting rid of" to mean "completely rewrite the entire lore while ommitting a single character and everything that character ever touched"? It always means "find a way to remove him from future events and from the ongoing story". In this case, there have been some ideas offered which would work perfectly as conversation starters at least so I won't be going there.

Pertaining to the idea of "he's a hero/he's not heroic": For my money this is a non-issue. The purpose of a game-setting is to give the players a setting in which to play. Duh. Any non-player-character should have an impact on the environment warrented by their purpose in the environment. Flavor NPCs like pedestrains have no effect on the environment; they just give the enemies an excuse to be present in public. Contact/Info NPCs have little impact on the environment; they keep enemies at bay while PCs get information from them which advances the story-line. The problem with Stateman and Recluse, IMHO, lies in my next point...

Pertaining to why any well-known or signature NPC should be removed from the ongoing story-line: As suggested above, the purpose of the game-setting is to give players a setting in which to play. The PCs should have the greatest impact on the environment. When the NPCs are all-powerful, individually or in a common collective, it makes the PCs needless. If States can knock out motherships with a single puch and lure away whole armadas in order to destroy them in a safe fashion, why the hell don't we just go for donuts? He's just standing around on that stupid boat in IP acting like he's our boss.

This goes back to the whole idea about feeling Heroic/Villainous. The new villain arc in Sharkshead made me remember why I like to play this game. I haven't had time to do the Hero-side of those new arcs, but I'm hoping it is similarly tailored to making the PC feel like they're the boss and the contact is working for them. As long as Statesman, and the rest of the Phalanx, is in Paragon and pretending to be in charge, all the PCs are just lackeys. The whole idea of super-heroes having to register with some super-powered government agency is ludicrous. I know they needed some way to have a framework for identities and levels and such, but it's time for the top of the pyramid to be removed so we can get out from under their shadows (that statue of Atlas is more symbolic than some people realize). I think GR could be the perfect excuse to do so, or at least to start the story-line process. Until Stateman and the FP are gone, however, I don't believe it will be possible to really make us heroes. Recluse and his group of lts aren't quite as bad for obvious reasons, and maybe removing States would free that side up as well, but I expect Rec/et. al. would have to go as well.

None of this has been a joke. I've been feeling this way for a long time now, which is why I haven't been playing as much. My RL political views make it difficult for me to get into the idea of a vast number of "super-heroes/villains" which willingly subject themselves to tyranical leaders and obviously counter-ethical orders (heroes committing horrendous acts of assault or b/e without any evidence to speak of and villains performing obviously generous and altruistic acts for no better reason than their "handlers" say so).

I'm not remotely suggesting "I'm leaving". I've been here for over five years now and I doubt I'll be leaving any time soon. I'm just expressing that I think the story-line has a serious whole in it which was put in place from the beginning and is expressed in the form of Stateman. Without removing that expression, the whole cannot be repaired.

Robin

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
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Posted

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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman View Post
Pertaining to the idea that the books make States out to be more of a hero: I was under the impression that neither the comic books nor the novels were cannon and therefore we have to only consider that lore which is available in game. Since not all of us care to pay any attention to things outside the game, and since we're talking about a game, I would think that for the purposes of this kind of discussion we should do so anyway.
They are canon. Whether or not they count because they're not primary canon (if we're going to get into that nonsense like Star Wars) is a matter of opinion.

Also, is the official website's timeline and backgrounder info not canon simply because it's not in the game?

Quote:
Pertaining to why any well-known or signature NPC should be removed from the ongoing story-line: As suggested above, the purpose of the game-setting is to give players a setting in which to play. The PCs should have the greatest impact on the environment. When the NPCs are all-powerful, individually or in a common collective, it makes the PCs needless. If States can knock out motherships with a single puch and lure away whole armadas in order to destroy them in a safe fashion, why the hell don't we just go for donuts? He's just standing around on that stupid boat in IP acting like he's our boss.
Why aren't the player characters resting on their laurels? Because Statesman is one guy. See: Superman. He's very powerful, but he cannot be everywhere at once, at all times, watching over everyone.

And PCs do have the greatest impact on the game world, albeit in a necessarily limited way. Did Statesman save the world from a second Rikti invasion? No. My characters did. Did Statesman travel the multiverse, preventing it from collapsing in on itself in the process? Nope. Did he save Wincott's son from the Minions of Igneous? Nuh-uh.

Quote:
As long as Statesman, and the rest of the Phalanx, is in Paragon and pretending to be in charge, all the PCs are just lackeys. The whole idea of super-heroes having to register with some super-powered government agency is ludicrous. I know they needed some way to have a framework for identities and levels and such, but it's time for the top of the pyramid to be removed so we can get out from under their shadows (that statue of Atlas is more symbolic than some people realize). I think GR could be the perfect excuse to do so, or at least to start the story-line process. Until Stateman and the FP are gone, however, I don't believe it will be possible to really make us heroes. Recluse and his group of lts aren't quite as bad for obvious reasons, and maybe removing States would free that side up as well, but I expect Rec/et. al. would have to go as well.

None of this has been a joke. I've been feeling this way for a long time now, which is why I haven't been playing as much. My RL political views make it difficult for me to get into the idea of a vast number of "super-heroes/villains" which willingly subject themselves to tyranical leaders and obviously counter-ethical orders (heroes committing horrendous acts of assault or b/e without any evidence to speak of and villains performing obviously generous and altruistic acts for no better reason than their "handlers" say so).
This just baffles me. Quite honestly, it sounds like you're seeing things that aren't there. Statesman does not command authority by default. At best, he commands respect because he's damn well earned it. I'm also confused on how he can both invalidate PCs entirely, but also stand around and not actually do anything.

For some reason where I see veteran heroes guiding, training, and molding the new guard into their successors, you see authoritarianism, with PCs strongarmed into obeying the all-glorious Freedom Phalanx.

I won't say that the contact relationship isn't a bit problematic on both sides of the game, but there's a difference between "following orders" and "following advice". Batman certainly does not answer to Jim Gordon, but he definitely listens to what he has to say.

Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!

 

Posted

Bury him.
Bury him with a shovel.
Then bury the shovel.
Can u say..'retcon'?
Btw ty for the vid link, anti-pro.

 

Posted

Well, you could work it into canon.

Let's say that a massive Rikti invasion, the biggest ever, threatens Earth. Statesman leads an army of heroes into low earth orbit to fight them. The heroes are victorious, but in the battle their space shuttle is damaged.

In a heroic act of self-sacrifice, Statesman seals the other heroes in the shuttle's radiation-proofed hold and pilots the shuttle to Earth, taking a potentially-fatal dose of radiation in the process. Statesman does not die, however, but...


...oh, forget it. Nobody would ever buy a line of crap like that.

I used to fiddle with my back feet music for a black onyx. My entire room absorbed every echo. The music was . . . thud like. The music was . . . thud like. I usually played such things as rough-neck and thug. Opaque melodies that would bug most people. Music from the other side of the fence.

 

Posted

This is a bit off-topic, but what was wrong with Emmert? I didn't have the chance to see what he was like. Unbiased description I possible.

 

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Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
They are canon. Whether or not they count because they're not primary canon (if we're going to get into that nonsense like Star Wars) is a matter of opinion.

Also, is the official website's timeline and backgrounder info not canon simply because it's not in the game?
I said that was my impression. I wouldn't know. I don't follow all that stuff. Don't care enough to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
Why aren't the player characters resting on their laurels? Because Statesman is one guy. See: Superman. He's very powerful, but he cannot be everywhere at once, at all times, watching over everyone.
Superman doesn't do everything because the writers know it would suck as a storyline. Given the concepts of the character, including the idea of his ability to move well past the speed of light or whatever and change the past, he most certainly could. That's why they had to introduce some massive bad-guys and massive weaknesses, and even with those things there aren't a thousand other "super heroes" running around his city because they still aren't needed. Guess what: Superman is the perfect example of exactly why Statesman needs to go away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
And PCs do have the greatest impact on the game world, albeit in a necessarily limited way. Did Statesman save the world from a second Rikti invasion? No. My characters did. Did Statesman travel the multiverse, preventing it from collapsing in on itself in the process? Nope. Did he save Wincott's son from the Minions of Igneous? Nuh-uh.
Why didn't he do all those things? Because he couldn't have? No, because he was sitting on his laurels and bossing other people around. Because if he did then there would be litterally no game and instead be a long line of cut-scenes. The PCs aren't needed, they're tolerated.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
This just baffles me. Quite honestly, it sounds like you're seeing things that aren't there. Statesman does not command authority by default. At best, he commands respect because he's damn well earned it. I'm also confused on how he can both invalidate PCs entirely, but also stand around and not actually do anything.

For some reason where I see veteran heroes guiding, training, and molding the new guard into their successors, you see authoritarianism, with PCs strongarmed into obeying the all-glorious Freedom Phalanx.

I won't say that the contact relationship isn't a bit problematic on both sides of the game, but there's a difference between "following orders" and "following advice". Batman certainly does not answer to Jim Gordon, but he definitely listens to what he has to say.
Are you playing the same game I am? Threats, orders, demands. There certainly are some contacts that act like teachers but even those only go to prove my point: the PCs aren't needed given the current game concept. They're usually tolerated and occasional accepted, and eventually even appreciated, but they're not heroes. Heroes are the leaders, not the followers. No follower has ever been a hero.

And as to your Batman comment: Commissioner Gordon never acts like he's trying to be Batman's teacher or handler. He's begging for help and Batman does what needs to be done to save the city he loves.

I've voiced my opinion and they are only that. I'm done here.

--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman View Post
Superman doesn't do everything because the writers know it would suck as a storyline. Given the concepts of the character, including the idea of his ability to move well past the speed of light or whatever and change the past, he most certainly could. That's why they had to introduce some massive bad-guys and massive weaknesses, and even with those things there aren't a thousand other "super heroes" running around his city because they still aren't needed. Guess what: Superman is the perfect example of exactly why Statesman needs to go away.
I'm not exactly up to date with modern continuity, but the time travel thing was introduced in the second movie, which had its own problems. And I'd say either way the time travel idea was ill-conceived. Of course, I was describing Statesman with those very same limitations, and he definitely cannot time travel on the fly. (Ouroboros is an incredibly problematic gray area regardless.) He also suffers far less power creep than Supes.

And while there aren't a thousand other super heroes running around Metropolis, there are countless worldwide, because again, Superman can't be everywhere. We don't have the luxury of being able to detail each and every unique home city for every possible new character, so things are fudged a bit in CoH, and they at least justify it - 90% of the hero population was wiped out in the Rikti War; Paragon City is a hotbed for crime.

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Why didn't he do all those things? Because he couldn't have? No, because he was sitting on his laurels and bossing other people around. Because if he did then there would be litterally no game and instead be a long line of cut-scenes. The PCs aren't needed, they're tolerated.
It's called narrative convenience, and comic book stories are built out of it. You can ask "Why doesn't the bad guy shoot the good guy and get it over with already?" or "Why doesn't Superman just punch the bad guy?" but the answer is pretty obvious - do that and you've killed the plot. There's no more story. (Plus that whole "can't be everywhere" thing.)

The world of City of Heroes was written with the idea of a big-name supergroup in mind* with a leader named Statesman who was world-renowned hero. It was also built with the idea that your character can grow into just as much of a hero as he is.

Complaining that Statesman is overly superior is like complaining that a level 50 player character is stronger than your level 1. The game is explicitly designed so that at level 50, you are seen as Statesman's equal, and similarly on the other side of the game, a bad enough dude that Recluse doesn't necessarily want to mess with you anymore.

*Funnily enough, the original design for the game had you joining supergroups like the Freedom Phalanx, but that was eventually dropped.

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Are you playing the same game I am? Threats, orders, demands. There certainly are some contacts that act like teachers but even those only go to prove my point: the PCs aren't needed given the current game concept. They're usually tolerated and occasional accepted, and eventually even appreciated, but they're not heroes. Heroes are the leaders, not the followers. No follower has ever been a hero.
Wow. Just...wow. There's so much wrong in that final sentence alone...

Threats? Orders? Demands? Maybe villainside, yeah, which is one of the flaws of the game. But from Statesman? From any of the Freedom Phalanx? From any of the normal citizen contacts? No. Never.

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And as to your Batman comment: Commissioner Gordon never acts like he's trying to be Batman's teacher or handler. He's begging for help and Batman does what needs to be done to save the city he loves.
Never said Gordon tries to act like a teacher or a handler. I said he gives advice, and Batman listens. Not because he commands Batman, but because he and Batman work together and mutually trust each other and fight for the greater good. This is exactly the type of relationship that encompasses at least 90% of City of Heroes' contacts. They also tend to beg for help too, even the Freedom Phalanx.

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