I had a FA/DB tank once. Deleted him because me and tanks... not a very good combo.
With that out of the way, DB/FA is a very good combo I'd say, the sets have excellent synergy. DB can provide plenty of knockdown which is very beneficial for FA, and double-stacked Blinding Feint + Blazing Aura = pure win. The only problem is that HF, consume and FE will cause redraw, so if you hate redraw you won't like the combo. But IIRC, those powers don't break your DB combos if you use them in the middle of one, so that's one problem out of the way.
As for the build... I'd go for recharge, recharge and more reacharge. Well, recharge so that you get to near permahaste and then 20% to 30% defense, depending on your budget and preferences.
There's one caveat though... Purely performance-wise, I'd always go with a DB/ElA brute instead of DB/FA. ElA does everything that FA does, but better IMO (except for FE... but I don't think FE is a significant factor with a non-FM primary). But I don't want to sway you from your concept, so I won't go into details.
In short: DB/FA = good combo.
I have a DB/Inv that is pretty solid, but the major gripe I have with her is the lack of a dmg aura. FA has one of the best dmg auras around and burn makes things even better if you plan on taking and using sweep. DB is fun, and I am happy you are enjoying it with one of my favorite brute secondaries.
As always, with FA, build for recharge and defense. Having healing flames up often is priceless, and defense stacked on decent resists goes a long way too.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Can you please elaborate on that? I'd love to hear it. I'm not an RPer so I don't really have much concept behind my characters. So if ElA can serve me better on my runs Might as well switch before it's too late. Especially since I'm planning to use that brute for some farming as well.
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Originally Posted by Exxar
There's one caveat though... Purely performance-wise, I'd always go with a DB/ElA brute instead of DB/FA. ElA does everything that FA does, but better IMO (except for FE... but I don't think FE is a significant factor with a non-FM primary). But I don't want to sway you from your concept, so I won't go into details.
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@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
Well, lets start with all the stuff both sets do but ElA does better, or worse but negligently so:
- Both ElA and FA are pure resist sets; they offer resistance but no defense. ElA has bigger base numbers though - 26.3% as opposed to 22.5% of FA.
- Both sets have stronger resists against one type of damage but weaker against another, and they can both cap resists vs their stronger resisted type. Those types are energy damage for ElA and fire for FA. Energy is the third most often encountered damage type in the game, after only smashing and lethal, while fire is encountered comparatively rarely. Both sets can cap their "stronger" type with a power that is easily skippable, but ElA is closer to the cap without that power than FA (80% vs 70%). Ela also has stronger resistance vs its "weaker" type (20% vs negative opposing 10% vs cold of FA, or 30% vs 20% in the case of taking the skippable power mentioned before).
- Both sets have endurance management tools but ElA's are much, much better. For starters, Power Sink recharges in 1 minute instead of Consume's 3, and automatically hits its targets. ElA also has Energize that grants a 60% endurance reduction (almost as 2 SOs) while active, and you can have it close to perma in high-end builds.
- Both sets have a self-heal clicky, and while Healing Flames is flat out better in terms of front-loaded healing because it recharges in 40 seconds instead of in 2 minutes, ElA's has more benefits. Besides healing the same amount of hit points, Energize gives you a +100% regeneration bonus while active, and also gives you the aforementioned endurance discount. From my experience, you can fire Energize often enough for the recharge difference not to be a significant factor when coupled with the regeneration bonus.
- Both sets have slow resistance. FA's comes in a very skippable power (Temperature Protection) and is only 20% compared to 40% of ElA, which also comes in one of the absolutely unskippable powers (Lightning Reflexes). FA's also resists jumping speed and height debuffs which ElA's doesn't, but that's not of any importance.
- Both sets have a damage aura with the same radius, same cycling times an same endurance cost. FA's does insignificantly more damage: 9.18 base as opposed to 8.34 base of ElA.
And here's where the differences in ElA's favor start:
- FA has a psi hole, ElA doesn't. ElA resists it as much as S/L. ElA has a toxic hole though, but FA only gets 15% resistance against it, and psi is much more prevalent than toxic.
- FA must use Combat Jumping, Burn or some other power to be protected from immobilization, ElA mustn't.
- ElA resists endurance drains and recovery debuffs by 100%, or by 170% if you pick the skippable power (Grounded).
- ElA has knockback protection in Grounded, although I consider that power to be highly skippable because of -KB IOs.
- ElA has Lightning Reflexes which give you a +20% bonus to global recharge, as well as a bonus to running and flying speed. That's like four recharge increasing melee sets, and makes achieving permahaste much more easy as well as being a huge boon during leveling.
- ElA has a 90% resists and +endurance godmode, while FA has a self-rez. While I don't pick any of them in my final builds, a proper godmode is much more useful than a self rez since you may as well use wakies.
How can FA contend with ElA then? It can't, IMO, but it does have some stuff that ElA doesn't:
- Fiery Embrace. For non-fire damage, it works exactly as Build Up but has a 3 minute recharge. It's better for fire damage, to which it gives a +100% bonus and lasts for 30 seconds. In a high end build, it will be on for about half the time (for fire damage only). That's a nice bonus to your Blazing Aura, but because it's up only half the time and because the way damage bonuses work (only enhance the base damage which is quite low for brutes - they get most of their oomph from fury), I don't consider it a significant factor in most circumstances. In a few specific ones, it has much greater effect, however; see below.
- Burn. This power does theoretically massive DoT and can be gotten perma. The catch is that it makes the mobs to run away from it, so in order to leverage its full potential you must keep them in it for its whole duration of 10 seconds. You can do that by immobilization AoEs such as Electrifying Fences. The Sweep combo could also be used, but I think there would be a few seconds left after the mobs get up from the final attack during which they would still manage to run away. There's another, quite big catch. The Burn patch inherits your fury for calculating damage, but it starts falling off as soon as the power is activated, so in the end it does a lot less damage than it should.
So, the only things FA has going for it are FE and Burn but is massively overshadowed by ElA in all other aspects. FE and Burn could give you a great bonus to damage in specific circumstances with a lot of hassle, but that's another layer of micromanagement to an already micromanagement intensive set, especially together with DB. Playing DB/ElA or DB/FA without trying to leverage Burn and FE requires enough attention already and can get tiresome after a while, with those two it would be even more so. Because of that (and of ElA's perks), I don't think that extra damage is worth it.
The conclusion is thus: if you want higher peak damage in specific circumstances and are willing to go through with the additional hassle to attain it, go with FA. If you want a much smoother all-around playing experience with a lot of side benefits at the cost of a mediocre at worst and negligent at best hit to your damage output, go with /ElA.
Wow. Very cool. Thanks a lot for taking the trouble into typing all this. My main problem between picking between FA and ElA was the difference in recharge between the self heals (matters a lot while farming I guess).. but from what you told me it should be cool though. Once again thanks.
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
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For farming and other end-game activities, you won't notice any difference at all. Energize will be up every time you need it. /FA has a smoother start since it both gets Healing Flames earlier and it recharges more often, but in the 30+ game /ElA is much more formidable.
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Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
Wow. Very cool. Thanks a lot for taking the trouble into typing all this. My main problem between picking between FA and ElA was the difference in recharge between the self heals (matters a lot while farming I guess).. but from what you told me it should be cool though. Once again thanks.
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Exxar- you just convinced me to make an elecArmor user. Great information. Very persuasive.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
The one exception is that in the late game when you fight toxic heavy foes...it cuts through ELA like butter. I have a number of ELA brutes that are 40+ and I really...REALLY hate toxic heavy foes.
The Porcelain God - DarkKinetics Corruptor
Meat Juice - DarkDarkSoul Brute
Pretty and Strong - Do you really have to ask?
Glad to be of help. While I'm at it, I just made several /ElA builds in Mids and remembered a nice thing about slotting. It is generally true for any combination, but for /ElA I have some hard numbers on it at the moment and it's easy to overlook.
If you have not yet decided upon a specific primary for your /ElA toon, those with multiple PBAoEs lend themselves much better to slotting. Specifically, the more PBAoEs a set has, the more defense you can juice out of the build besides +recharge. For example, the builds I just did for DB/ElA and WM/ElA had 30% to 35% defense vs melee and 20% to 25% defense vs ranged and AoE, while builds for sets with only 1 PBAoE such as SS have about 20% vs melee and 15% vs ranged and AoE. The key is in Obliterations - they give you both a melee defense bonus and a recharge bonus, otherwise you have to take two sets to get both of those bonuses. Not a great and almighty piece of wisdom, but as I said, easy to overlook.
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Yeah, toxic heavy foes are a pain, I have to be extra careful with my Energize and be sure not to aggro two spawns at once (I play at +0/x8). But if I pay attention, the good old smash them to bits RIGHT NAO tactic always works, especially if they're constantly on their backs due to FS or Tremor. Permahaste FTW! 20% defense also helps greatly too, as well as their zeroed endurance in case of my SM/ElA/Mu.|
Originally Posted by _Krom_
The one exception is that in the late game when you fight toxic heavy foes...it cuts through ELA like butter. I have a number of ELA brutes that are 40+ and I really...REALLY hate toxic heavy foes.
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Anyway, that little bit of toxic resistance from Healing Flames doesn't make a huge difference, especially since you cannot usually afford to slot it for resistance. And even then, toxic-heavy foes are much rarer than psi-heavy ones.
What foes are "toxic heavy"? Most seem to only have one toxic attack or it's like the spines longbow wardens and paragon protectors who are both lethal and toxic mixed. who really focuses on it?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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High level arachnos are pretty heavy on the toxic side especially with the 40+ Toxic Tarantulas and Bane spiders.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
What foes are "toxic heavy"? Most seem to only have one toxic attack or it's like the spines longbow wardens and paragon protectors who are both lethal and toxic mixed. who really focuses on it?
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Nah, that's not very toxic-heavy. TTs have a significant toxic component to their attacks IIRC, yes, but Banes mostly do S/L with just a smattering of toxic so that it's not really a problem. And TTs you can blow up at the start of the fight rather quickly, so no fuss there.|
Originally Posted by Dealtimus
High level arachnos are pretty heavy on the toxic side especially with the 40+ Toxic Tarantulas and Bane spiders.
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Arachnoids and snakes are the only really toxic-heavy mobs in the game. Most of their damage is toxic, and while they do have a few S/L-only attacks, those are in the minority. Thankfully, they are not encountered regularly.
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I could swear there was a mission (I thought part of a patron arc) where it was in a cave filled with crab like guys (humanoids) who always sliced through my ELA brutes with ease...I was pretty sure they did toxic. That and the archnoids have always been somewhat problematic with my ELA brutes (snakes were never really a problem).
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Originally Posted by Exxar
Nah, that's not very toxic-heavy. TTs have a significant toxic component to their attacks IIRC, yes, but Banes mostly do S/L with just a smattering of toxic so that it's not really a problem. And TTs you can blow up at the start of the fight rather quickly, so no fuss there.
Arachnoids and snakes are the only really toxic-heavy mobs in the game. Most of their damage is toxic, and while they do have a few S/L-only attacks, those are in the minority. Thankfully, they are not encountered regularly. |
The Porcelain God - DarkKinetics Corruptor
Meat Juice - DarkDarkSoul Brute
Pretty and Strong - Do you really have to ask?
Very very nice descriptions of both armor types EXXAR. I have long been a big fan of ela....even before its i16 buff. Your descriptions just makes everyone realize that fire armor and even dark and energy armors need some buffs. Those 3 just don't measure up with the other armors.
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Originally Posted by _Krom_
I could swear there was a mission (I thought part of a patron arc) where it was in a cave filled with crab like guys (humanoids) who always sliced through my ELA brutes with ease...I was pretty sure they did toxic. That and the archnoids have always been somewhat problematic with my ELA brutes (snakes were never really a problem).
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There's the Exterminators arc, can't remember his name (Dobbs?). Most of his missions are vs Arachnoids and set in webbed caves.*
I'd lean towards Elec as well, at least until Burn plays better with Fury (if that ever happens).
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Exxar did fail to mention one other thing - Healing Flames isn't just a heal, but also offers (stackable) +15% resistance to Toxic.|
Originally Posted by Exxar
How can FA contend with ElA then? It can't, IMO, but it does have some stuff that ElA doesn't:
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http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Healing_Flames
Also, Consume is available MUCH earlier than Power Sink and even though it requires Acc slotting, it also has a 20 foot radius, rather than the mere 10 feet of Power Sink and does damage (granted, not much).
I do agree, comparing FA's performance to ElA points out the need for some tweaks to FA, but the set isn't completely useless!
Be Well!
Fireheart
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Interesting, I didn't know that it's stackable. Nice!|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Healing Flames isn't just a heal, but also offers (stackable) +15% resistance to Toxic.
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Well then, /elec doesn't have a psi hole and /fire doesn't have a toxic hole. Evens it up a little for /fire, but only a little bit IMO since psi attacks are much more prevalent than toxic, and some of those psi attacks also don't have a positional component, which can be nasty.
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But by the same token with healing flames, you can heal back any damage you take much faster with /FA then /ELA. I think, in the end, healing flames is really what makes FA desirable...the rest is meh.
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Originally Posted by Exxar
Interesting, I didn't know that it's stackable. Nice!
Well then, /elec doesn't have a psi hole and /fire doesn't have a toxic hole. Evens it up a little for /fire, but only a little bit IMO since psi attacks are much more prevalent than toxic, and some of those psi attacks also don't have a positional component, which can be nasty. |
The Porcelain God - DarkKinetics Corruptor
Meat Juice - DarkDarkSoul Brute
Pretty and Strong - Do you really have to ask?
Don't forget the massive end drain from lightning field and power sink if you slot for it, extra mitigation that FA doesn't have an equivalent for.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Hrrm, for LF and PS to be effective for sapping you'd have to fire PS twice in a fight. The only way it's effective upfront is paired with Ball Lightning and Electrifying Fences from Mu Mastery, although I'm not sure if the EF are required. PS+BL+EF, however, is definitively enough to zero the mobs' end, and LF keeps it that way until you can recast BL and/or ES.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Don't forget the massive end drain from lightning field and power sink if you slot for it, extra mitigation that FA doesn't have an equivalent for.
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Depends on slotting, one PS will drain minions to almost nothing while LF whittles it down the rest of the way. Bosses and Lts, yeah, but seeing how I make those my first target, it usually isn't an issue.
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Originally Posted by Exxar
Hrrm, for LF and PS to be effective for sapping you'd have to fire PS twice in a fight. The only way it's effective upfront is paired with Ball Lightning and Electrifying Fences from Mu Mastery, although I'm not sure if the EF are required. PS+BL+EF, however, is definitively enough to zero the mobs' end, and LF keeps it that way until you can recast BL and/or ES.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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PS slotted with 3 lvl 50 EndMod IOs drains 80% of a mob's (even-con minion) endurance with a single application. LF drains 3% per tick without EndMod slotting (and slots are much better spent elsewhere than to enhance that number) so the mobs would be sapped to 0 after 14 seconds of fighting. Ain't cutting it. Or to 10 after 7 seconds which is also good, and that's borderline cutting it.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Depends on slotting, one PS will drain minions to almost nothing while LF whittles it down the rest of the way. Bosses and Lts, yeah, but seeing how I make those my first target, it usually isn't an issue.
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Or, you can slot endmod in LF, which isnt unheard of. As to whether or not slots are better spent elsewhere, I think that is up to the individual to decide. |
Originally Posted by Exxar
PS slotted with 3 lvl 50 EndMod IOs drains 80% of a mob's (even-con minion) endurance with a single application. LF drains 3% per tick without EndMod slotting (and slots are much better spent elsewhere than to enhance that number) so the mobs would be sapped to 0 after 14 seconds of fighting. Ain't cutting it. Or to 10 after 7 seconds which is also good, and that's borderline cutting it.
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There is a lot of space in how you build any toon, and more than one way to run them effectively. This is even more true now than before they switched conserve power for energize. Most people swore you needed medicine and that CP was a waste. I ran mine with no problems doing the exact opposite.
Just because you don't think something is useful doesn't mean someone else may find it so.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Basically..I made a Dual Blades/Fiery Armor brute. I can easily testify that for the entire time that I've been playing that game, I have *never* seen that combo on a brute...or any kind of toon for that matter. So..I'm kinda of curious as to what is you guys' initial reaction to such a "weird" combo. Basically I chose that combo because 1) DB has a lot of AoE damage, even though it's not burst damage. And I enjoy playing DB quite a lot to begin with. 2) I've been wanting to try a Fiery Armor brute for a while now.
My initial thought for that build would be to build for as much recharge (and accuracy) as possible...but yeah. I'm wanting to hear what you guys think of this.
Thanks.
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor