Quote:
The penalties may still be there, but the point of a penalty is that you should suffer it, not that you could ignore it with certain power selections. A teletank does not care about the movement penalties.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
That doesn't mean they're not still penalties. And the slots required to work around them aren't required by any other set out there.
|
Quote:
| Again, simply because you see them as "trivial" doesn't mean they are. especially in a tight build. |
Quote:
| And with a stacking armor schema like the one I proposed, it would get tighter still. |
Quote:
| One problem. You're also forgetting the 30% damage debuff that Granite imposes. |
Quote:
| You're also forgetting that a non-stone player who devotes NO slots to recharge has room for End Redux. |
In the IO world the granite can easily frankenslot 95% recharge and Damage without sacrificing acc or end slotting, to boot.
Quote:
That is no longer true. Not since Dual Pistols came out. Change Ammo does exactly that, it targets only the powers in the set, and not just does it target the powers in the set, it actually target specific attributes within that power.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
It can't be. If you're intending to make it apply in a manner proportionate to the current endurance cost of the power rather than the base endurance cost pre-modification, it's not possible. The devs have told us before that it's impossible for a power to apply an attribute modification to a specific power exclusively. It's possible to add or subtract base values, but, if that occurred, the difference between having no end redux, standard end redux, and heavy end redux would generate highly different end values (because it would need to be linear and end redux operates in a proportionate manner).
|
So far they only been doing changes to chance percentages with it, but I'm sure the system would allow them to change about any attribute in the list.
Umbral, just to make sure I'm reading things correctly with the changes you're suggesting; if you're running Stone, Rock, Brimstone, Crystals and Minerals the un-enhanced totals would be:
Quote:
Is this correct?
Def:
|
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Quote:
A teletank is also utilizing an unwieldy, End-chugging means of transportation. All just to get a few feet down the road.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
The penalties may still be there, but the point of a penalty is that you should suffer it, not that you could ignore it with certain power selections. A teletank does not care about the movement penalties.
|
Quote:
| There is nothing tight about a granite build. |
Quote:
| Thats not a penalty for activating the power though, and that would be the point, find a penalty that is more suitable to make sure the set pays for it's survivability. |
Quote:
| 15% after enhancements are accounted for. Thats nothing in this game. |
So you ARE paying for that survivability by prolonging fights.
Quote:
| Good thing it only needs to run one toggle that wont drain much endurance!!! |
Quote:
| In the IO world the granite can easily frankenslot 95% recharge and Damage without sacrificing acc or end slotting, to boot. |
As for the "ease". Do a cost analysis for both inf on the market and merits as to how much it takes to fully frankenslot out a stoner this way.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Yes. Keep in mind that Toxic isn't a defense type, so that 0% doesn't really mean anything.
|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Is this correct?
|
Quote:
It seems like a very interesting idea, especially since I've always liked the idea of players summoning the DE emanators (I actually pitched an idea, way back when, for Hami merits or a Hami accolade to summon a DE emanator to buff your team).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Let me know if you think we can work out some numbers for a setup lik this.
|
The only problems I can see with this is that the area might be a bit too big (I would err on the side of caution because the idea is to prevent players from never leaving it) and that, as some have already stated, they like the visual effect that Granite Armor provides (though I doubt it would be impossible for the visual effect of the effect granted by the emanator to turn you into the giant rock thing). If I were to do something like this, I would likely have the area of the effect be roughly 10-15' around the emanator, but have the duration of the effect itself last between 5-8 seconds so that you can manage short forays out of it before the benefit drops off.
Another problem would be determining how to adjudicate downtime: if it's a click power, it would be pretty easy to simply stay in that area until the power recharges if the emanator itself lasts an exceptionally long time (which I think you're suggesting). That issue right there presents me with some problems because I think it would probably be better to simply force the power to start recharging after the emanator dies rather than after the emanator is created, though the only way I can imagine doing this would be to make the power a toggle that somehow keeps the emanator it summons alive (something that I'm not even sure is possible; though, if it's possible for a toggle to summon the pet upon initial activation, I can imagine putting together some kind of mechanism where the pet attempts to deal enough damage to kill itself every few seconds and the toggle simply gives it 100% resistance to this suicide damage type in order to generate that functionality).
Also, bringing up this concept has reminded me of an idea for and "Earth/Rock/Crystal Support" set I came up with long ago wherein a majority of the functionality of the power was built around summoning emanators to buff your party and debuff your enemies (like using both CoT crystals and DE emanators as 4-5 of the powers in the set). I might start trying to put that together again...
Quote:
Eh, I would be reluctant to say that the Dual Pistols changes (which I was under the impression only allow them to modify chances for certain effects to occur rather than outright attribute changes) would be certainly able to change such base attributes as endurance cost, recharge time, and root time. I'm not entirely sure that those values are part of the same entries and there might not be the same permissions and accessibility with that additional functionality.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
That is no longer true. Not since Dual Pistols came out. Change Ammo does exactly that, it targets only the powers in the set, and not just does it target the powers in the set, it actually target specific attributes within that power.
So far they only been doing changes to chance percentages with it, but I'm sure the system would allow them to change about any attribute in the list. |
It might be possible, but I would be reluctant to say that it is likely without a redname weighing in on the matter.
Quote:
Plugging those values into Arcanaville's spreadsheet seem to indicate that it would be just a bit too strong. Using 5 targets in melee as the point of comparison, it's going to survive roughly 10% stronger than Invuln. Considering the loss of the primary mitigating factors concerning its use, I would wager that those changes might need to be reigned in a bit.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Just a thought here...you can tell me if it seems balanced or not, Umbral.
|
Personally, I prefer the changes that I made because they make Stone Skin a power that actually contributes noticeably towards your survivability, even at level 1, something that the power doesn't really do now. I doubt anyone really thinks it's a great power pick as it is. Right now, it provides the same amount of resistance as Resist Physical Damage (which actually has a place in Invuln because it's already packing huge amounts of s/l resist so that paltry sum is actually providing a lot more mitigation comparatively) while not providing any DDR. I don't really think that "it can be used with mutually exclusive Granite" is a particularly good reason for not buffing an otherwise uninteresting and otherwise useless power, especially since I believe that it's doubtful that, after the comprehensive changes to the set that this thread has been espousing, Granite Armor would remain mutually exclusive with the rest of the set. I expect that Granite Armor will probably have its base values reduced and the mutual exclusivity to be removed, at the very least.
Also, my changes attempt to diversify the individual mechanisms to allow Stone Armor to be less allergic to specific situations than other armor sets, which, as I see it, would be a major advantage: unlike some other tanks, a Stone Armor tank with my changes would be able to comfortably tank virtually all enemy groups thanks to a diversified suite of mitigation tools.
Quote:
Hmmm...I thought my suggestion covered all the bases as well.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Plugging those values into Arcanaville's spreadsheet seem to indicate that it would be just a bit too strong. Using 5 targets in melee as the point of comparison, it's going to survive roughly 10% stronger than Invuln. Considering the loss of the primary mitigating factors concerning its use, I would wager that those changes might need to be reigned in a bit.
Personally, I prefer the changes that I made because they make Stone Skin a power that actually contributes noticeably towards your survivability, even at level 1, something that the power doesn't really do now. I doubt anyone really thinks it's a great power pick as it is. Right now, it provides the same amount of resistance as Resist Physical Damage (which actually has a place in Invuln because it's already packing huge amounts of s/l resist so that paltry sum is actually providing a lot more mitigation comparatively) while not providing any DDR. I don't really think that "it can be used with mutually exclusive Granite" is a particularly good reason for not buffing an otherwise uninteresting and otherwise useless power, especially since I believe that it's doubtful that, after the comprehensive changes to the set that this thread has been espousing, Granite Armor would remain mutually exclusive with the rest of the set. I expect that Granite Armor will probably have its base values reduced and the mutual exclusivity to be removed, at the very least. Also, my changes attempt to diversify the individual mechanisms to allow Stone Armor to be less allergic to specific situations than other armor sets, which, as I see it, would be a major advantage: unlike some other tanks, a Stone Armor tank with my changes would be able to comfortably tank virtually all enemy groups thanks to a diversified suite of mitigation tools. |
But like you said, the numbers would have to go down.
Any changes done to Stone Armor, I'd just want the -jump/-spd from Rooted gotten rid of. And I don't want to see Stone Armor lose it's toggle tier9. It's different. I like that it's different.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
In that you do are right, only effect lines are affected meaning base power attributes like endurance cost are not. I am certain it can be used for any attribute in the effect though, not just chance. Keep in mind, thats not something they designed for Dual Pistols, is something they discovered the game was able to do all along while lookings for way to implement the design they had in mind for dual pistols (shows how far they will go to implement what they want.)|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Eh, I would be reluctant to say that the Dual Pistols changes (which I was under the impression only allow them to modify chances for certain effects to occur rather than outright attribute changes) would be certainly able to change such base attributes as endurance cost, recharge time, and root time. I'm not entirely sure that those values are part of the same entries and there might not be the same permissions and accessibility with that additional functionality.
It might be possible, but I would be reluctant to say that it is likely without a redname weighing in on the matter. |
I am lost on what you want though, you can make granite have an end cost increase debuff (negative conserve energy) if you wanted that forces all powers to cost double endurance. Also fail to see why such debuff, if desired, should be limited to certain powers and not just applied to any power the granite tanker uses.
Quote:
Simple frankenslotting is HORRIBLY cheap. It's when you want to actually build for set bonuses and recharge that you start spending money.
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
If you want to start talking IO sets, then this is over. Basically any talk about optional sets is going to introduce the "you weren't originally intended to do that". Yeah, you weren't originally intended to defense cap so many different types of toons either.
As for the "ease". Do a cost analysis for both inf on the market and merits as to how much it takes to fully frankenslot out a stoner this way. |
Quote:
I'm not certain that's possible. I think the recovery minimum is 0.00% and the "Endurance Modification" minimum is also 0.00%. It -could- theoretically be modified, but wouldn't it be simpler to implement a Max Attribute penalty, which we know Endurance is capable of? I'll, again, suggest the Maximum End Penalty be -35 Maximum end. Able to be offset by slotting and accolades, but not easily.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
In that you do are right, only effect lines are affected meaning base power attributes like endurance cost are not. I am certain it can be used for any attribute in the effect though, not just chance. Keep in mind, thats not something they designed for Dual Pistols, is something they discovered the game was able to do all along while lookings for way to implement the design they had in mind for dual pistols (shows how far they will go to implement what they want.)
I am lost on what you want though, you can make granite have an end cost increase debuff (negative conserve energy) if you wanted that forces all powers to cost double endurance. Also fail to see why such debuff, if desired, should be limited to certain powers and not just applied to any power the granite tanker uses. |
-Rachel-
A Granite penalty that worsens the player's endurance situation has the minor advantage of making thematic sense. Everything does take more energy when you're carrying your own weight in slabs of granite!
It's also a penalty that we can observe in the wild right now, and it does appear to be onerous enough to engender a desire to avoid it when possible. Ask anyone who's been hit by it how they feel about the Curse of Weariness. If you have delicate sensibilities, make sure the profanity filter is active first.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
I don't know. Never really seen THING tire out easier, just because he's stuck in Granite mode 24/7.
|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
A Granite penalty that worsens the player's endurance situation has the minor advantage of making thematic sense. Everything does take more energy when you're carrying your own weight in slabs of granite!
It's also a penalty that we can observe in the wild right now, and it does appear to be onerous enough to engender a desire to avoid it when possible. Ask anyone who's been hit by it how they feel about the Curse of Weariness. If you have delicate sensibilities, make sure the profanity filter is active first. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Don't those two issues cancel each other out, though? If you drop the are of effect sufficiently (and I wouldn't go below 30 feet radius - that's less than medium-sized room) but keep the recharge high, you have no issue with keeping the effect on yourself permanently. You COULD just stay in range of the eminator until your summon recharged, but by the same token, you could just stay out of combat until Unstoppable recharged, yet that's viewed as incredibly poor judgement. And for good reason.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The only problems I can see with this is that the area might be a bit too big (I would err on the side of caution because the idea is to prevent players from never leaving it) and that, as some have already stated, they like the visual effect that Granite Armor provides (though I doubt it would be impossible for the visual effect of the effect granted by the emanator to turn you into the giant rock thing). If I were to do something like this, I would likely have the area of the effect be roughly 10-15' around the emanator, but have the duration of the effect itself last between 5-8 seconds so that you can manage short forays out of it before the benefit drops off.
Another problem would be determining how to adjudicate downtime: if it's a click power, it would be pretty easy to simply stay in that area until the power recharges if the emanator itself lasts an exceptionally long time (which I think you're suggesting). That issue right there presents me with some problems because I think it would probably be better to simply force the power to start recharging after the emanator dies rather than after the emanator is created, though the only way I can imagine doing this would be to make the power a toggle that somehow keeps the emanator it summons alive (something that I'm not even sure is possible; though, if it's possible for a toggle to summon the pet upon initial activation, I can imagine putting together some kind of mechanism where the pet attempts to deal enough damage to kill itself every few seconds and the toggle simply gives it 100% resistance to this suicide damage type in order to generate that functionality). |
The only way I can see this as being problematic is if you you often face situations where enemies come to you for long periods of time, say for stretches of ten minutes or so. Again, outside of the Respec trial, I'm not aware of many such situations. For the most part, the impetus is on you to move, not on enemies to come to you. You CAN pull enemies into the effective area, that much is true, but again, that has its limits. With the current aggro caps, pulling enemies long-distance (which I define as 100 feet plus away) is not only inefficient, it's pretty poor play.
Theoretically, you CAN achieve uninterrupted uptime, but the cost of this uptime is the inability to make any use out of your survivability outside of a select few "siege" situations. Granted, this still allows Granite Armour to shine in siege conditions, but those are both rare enough and crappy enough for most builds to where I have no problem with letting Granite Armour shine.
Again, the point of this change is to give Granite Armour the ability to hold ground better than any other set out there, but to have absolutely no utility in offensive action. You CAN run in and summon the eminator. Once. After that, you're bound by recharge, and unless you plan to fight the same spawn for the next 10 minutes, you will be unable to use Granite Armour permanently.
If most T9 powers are limited by uptime, then let Granite Armour be limited by proximinty. That alone feels like it should be balance enough.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
The emanator power suggestion would meet most of the design goals on a mechanical level. It does have two drawbacks on a conceptual/aesthetic level.
The first, obviously, is that it flagrantly violates the cottage rule, almost to the extent that the example that gives the cottage rule its name does. Whereas Granite is a toggle that applies a buff and costume change, Emanator is a click power that summons a static entity that buffs the caster. That's a pretty radical departure, and if there's one thing that gets people up in arms it's a change to a power that invalidates their character concept.
The second is a conceptual puzzle. So you've summoned this entity and it's buffing you as long as you stay close to it. Why isn't it buffing anyone else that is similarly nearby? This isn't a tech issue - the Veteran combat pets already have an aura that only buffs the summoner. It is a perceptual issue though. I suppose you could set up some graphics where it's clear that the protective effect is streaming from the emanator directly to the caster, rather than being dispersed in the general area, but then you wouldn't have a visual cue for the boundary of your protection zone. I wouldn't want to be the guy tasked with animating this in a way that makes sense.
Again, it's a good idea for a power. It's even a good idea for a power that would have the advantages and limitations that we want Granite to have. It just isn't very much like Granite conceptually. And when the developers are considering dramatically reducing the effectiveness of an iconic power, they probably want to avoid making people mad for a bunch of other unnecessary reasons in the process.
On a different topic, I've downloaded Arcanaville's spreadsheet and I'm toying with various combinations of power numbers and circumstances. Umbral, you may want to check out what happens to current Stone, current Granite, and your versions of Stone and Granite when you start to increase the Defense Debuff number. Yes, I'm aware that defense usually protects against defense-debuffing attacks, but there are a number of situations where this is not the case and it'd be a nasty surprise to pull on current Stone players to find out that they are now quite weak in situations where they used to be able to fall back on other protections.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
That's debatable. The cottage rule says that a power will not change the basic functionality of a power. The basic functionality of Granite Armor is to provide a high level of resistance and defense. The enamantor concept would still do this, so there's no real breaking of the cottage rule. The Cottage Rule was given that name specifically because it referred to making Build Up create a cottage rather than increase your damage and accuracy. If the cottage still increased your damage and accuracy, or increased it in a different way, then it wouldn't be breaking the cottage rule because that same functionality is still present within the new version of the power. Just look at the change from Conserve Power to Energize: the end redux got pushed almost completely to the side, but it's still there so the Cottage Rule isn't broken.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The first, obviously, is that it flagrantly violates the cottage rule, almost to the extent that the example that gives the cottage rule its name does.
|
Quote:
| So you've summoned this entity and it's buffing you as long as you stay close to it. Why isn't it buffing anyone else that is similarly nearby? |
Quote:
| On a different topic, I've downloaded Arcanaville's spreadsheet and I'm toying with various combinations of power numbers and circumstances. Umbral, you may want to check out what happens to current Stone, current Granite, and your versions of Stone and Granite when you start to increase the Defense Debuff number. Yes, I'm aware that defense usually protects against defense-debuffing attacks, but there are a number of situations where this is not the case and it'd be a nasty surprise to pull on current Stone players to find out that they are now quite weak in situations where they used to be able to fall back on other protections. |
Remember that Granite Armor has some massive DDR so you're going to get some friggin' insane resistance to those effects while it's on, considering you still have all of your other effects to fall back on.
Regarding the emanator, I did say that my objections are more on conceptual grounds. But they're still worth considering. Remember that, while trying to make Stone more popular with the folks who don't like it now is a chancy proposition, making it less popular with the folks who do like it now is a near-certainty. When taking Granite performance away, it might not be that great an idea to also take Granite mechanics and Granite visuals away. Not that I'm particularly in love with the rock monster myself - if I had my druthers, Granite and Stone Armor in general would be considerably sleeker - but since you're already going to provoke /ragequits among the performance freaks, do you really have to annoy the concept-uber-alles players while you're at it?
Regarding defense debuff, the situations that concern me are actually ones where very strong tohit buffs are present, which can be roughly simulated by setting defense debuff to some absurdly high number but is probably best simulated by setting the defense values to -4.5. You may scoff, but I can think of a number of important encounters (and some more common ones) where defense is pretty much negated as a form of mitigation. Ask any SR or Shield or Ice player about crystal emanators, or Overseers, or the Mire Nictus, or tower-buffed Recluse.
Of course, weakening Stone + Granite overall is probably a point in favor of any change, but substantially reducing its prior versatility and creating specific weak points that didn't previously exist might not go down so well.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
This is one of those areas upon which a lot of balance discussions drive over the edge, and it tends to get glossed over. But I think its important to resolve, so here goes.|
Originally Posted by Computer
I don't see why a set absolutely positively cannot make up for their weaknesses
|
The phrase "make up for" is a bit fuzzy. There's absolutely no problem in a set that is lacking in X to try to acquire more X to compensate for the lack of X. However, there is a serious game design problem when someone that lacks X can do something that essentially negates the lack of X.
Lets put this into context. Suppose that powerset A has 30% defense, powerset B has zero defense, and powerset C has some advantage that comes with a -10% defensive penalty. And suppose further that combat jumping offered 60% defense. In such a game, two things are true:
1. Powerset A's defense is not very meaningful, because Powerset B can buy a level of defense that softcaps B in one cheap power. While its technically true that there are corner cases where Powerset A's 90% defense with CJ would be better than Powerset B's 60% defense with just CJ, its obvious that the benefit of Powerset A's defense is severely minimized. It would have a significant defensive value that B didn't, but with CJ that value is trivialized. Its just not worth very much.
2. Similarly, Powerset C's "disadvantage" is almost totally negated as well. It can buy CJ and get to 50% defense, which is also above the softcap. And while its true that 90% > 60% > 50%, clearly the defensive penalty that Powerset C received is being swamped by CJ: its just not that meaningful most of the time.
That's an example where a penalty can be basically erased by circumstances. But with Granite Armor, there is a more subtle effect at work. Consider this:
Powerset A has zero damage buff.
Powerset B has -30% damage debuff.
At level one, without enhancements, Powerset B (assuming its paired with an identical offensive set as Powerset A) deals only 70% of the damage of Powerset A. However, at level 40 with +95% damage enhancements slotted into attacks, the situation changes: Powerset A now deals 195% damage and Powerset B now deals 165% damage, which means Powerset B is dealing 165/195 = 84.6% of the damage of PowersetA. Its 30% penalty has been "diluted" to only a 15.4% penalty. And as you stack team damage buffs or invention buffs, that penalty continues to decrease. Couple that with a -65% recharge penalty that can *also* be diluted with slotting, and the total damage penalty can be very high on unslotted attacks and very low on slotted ones, and even lower in the average team with the average level of buffs.
Because the penalty can be diluted it weakens as the buffing situation improves. But since the devs have to target the penalty for a variety of situations, they have to account for things like unslotted attacks (otherwise, they could neutralize the damage of attacks a tanker added to their build before they could aggressive slot them). The issue here is *not* that -30% damage and -65% recharge can be "neutralized" by buying +30% damage and +65% recharge, but rather that those penalties weaken proportionately from their initial strength.
This is no different than the converse problem where Brutes tend to be so highly damage buffed that their own Fury tends to dilute other damage buffs like Assault or even Build Up. Proportionately, those powers numerical strength is weakened due to being in the presence of other strong buffs.
If the devs could apply a proportional debuff, something where, say, the Stone tanker would *always* deal 30% less damage and be 65% slower under *all* buffing conditions with Granite up vs Granite down, then those penalties would be more "inescapable" because they couldn't be diluted away or saturated away.
Ultimately, that is the problem with the Granite debuffs today. They simply don't do what they were intended to do, because the linear additive nature of buffs and debuffs make it impossible** to do what is intended with the current game mechanics. And this has nothing to do with "plugging holes" or "making up for weaknesses" but rather taking a penalty applied to a power and diluting that penalty until its too weak to do its intended job.
** Well, technically difficult, not impossible. I can think of a way to address the damage debuff issue that does not require new tech, and I can think of a couple of tech changes that would address the recharge issue. But I'm not sure its worth it just to tackle a single power.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Dual Pistols leverages two effects, one new and one old but unknown until recently.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Eh, I would be reluctant to say that the Dual Pistols changes (which I was under the impression only allow them to modify chances for certain effects to occur rather than outright attribute changes) would be certainly able to change such base attributes as endurance cost, recharge time, and root time. I'm not entirely sure that those values are part of the same entries and there might not be the same permissions and accessibility with that additional functionality.
It might be possible, but I would be reluctant to say that it is likely without a redname weighing in on the matter. |
The old but unknown till Dual Pistols came around is that its possible to create a power effect that only affects certain other power effects by type. "Type" is something the devs can set up independently of any other part of the power, so in the Dual Pistols case they made the different damage types all different power effect "types."
The new thing is that the devs added a new kind of power modifier that can change the percentage chance for a power effect to occur. The combination of the two effects allow one power (i.e. the ammunition toggles) to affect the chance that certain damage effects will occur. Most of the time, this works by making the desired damage effects occur 100% of the time and the undesired ones occur 0% of the time, but it is also used to suppress the knockdown chances of some powers when lethal ammunition is not used.
To the best of my knowledge, it is still not possible to change the base properties of a power in any way: cast time, recharge, endurance cost, etc. Only individual power effects. And in fact Dual Pistols doesn't "change" any of the power effects per se: it "buffs and debuffs" the percentage chances, no differently than it might buff or debuff other aspects of the power.
Also: as far as I know these are relatively speaking computationally expensive effects for the game engine to perform. Its not something the devs necessarily want to do in a wide-spread manner.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I'm just going to think out loud here, so if I make a fool of myself, feel free to point and laugh. Samuel Tow's emanator idea got me thinking.
Looking at this with the idea of not breaking the cottage rule. Source of info, RedTomax.
A Tanker running Rock Armor, Brimstone Armor, Minerals, and Crystal Armor has (in PvE):
End Cost .39
+16% Defense (Smashing/Lethal)
+34.6 % Defense (Defense Debuffs)
+25% Resistance (Fire/Cold)
+16% Defense (Negative/Energy)
+25% Defense (Psi)
+60% Resistance (Perception Debuffs)
+0.6 Perception Radius
-30 Confusion
+85.6% Resistance (Confusion)
Obviously, this is all before slotting and whatnot.
So by toggling on Granite Armor instead of the others, you give up the following:
+16% Defense (Lethal)
+16% Defense (Negative/Energy)
+25% Defense (Psi)
+60% Resistance (Perception Debuffs)
+0.6 Perception Radius
-30 Confusion
+85.6% Resistance (Confusion)
-Runspeed (0.7)
-65% Recharge (ignores enhancements/buffs)
-30% Damage (self debuff, ignores enhancements/buffs)
+ 0.5 Jump Speed (ignores enhancements/buffs)
-10 Fly (ignores enhancements/buffs)
+43.25% Resistance (Defense Debuffs)
Set Costume to Rocksuit
-500 Jump Height (ignores enhancements/buffs)
And in return, you get:
-.26 End Cost
+4% Defense (Smashing)
+34.6 % Defense (Defense Debuffs)
+25% Resistance (Fire/Cold)
+50% Resistance (Smashing/Lethal/Negative/Energy)
-21.625 Resistance (Stun/Held/Sleep/Immobilize)
-10 Knockback/Knockup/Repel (ignores enhancements/buffs)
I am of the opinion that what you give up in Defense is swamped by the increased Resistance. So that means that you are giving up a LOT of offensive capacity in return for a LOT of damage mitigation, a large endurance cost decrease, and excellent mez resistance.
My thoughts are these...
- Granite Armor, by itself, should have slightly better overall mitigation than any other set when considering only the toggles of each set (because it is giving up offense and movement).
- Granite Armor, by itself, should give better mitigation than the rest of the toggles exclusive to it in Stone Armor for the same reason.
- Since it can be run constantly, Granite Armor iis effectively an ongoing mitigation 'stance' rather than a Tier 9 'Godmode' or 'Panic Button' power. Therefore Stone Armor must either do without a Panic Button, or such a button should be built into some power in the set.
- In addition, the other toggles in Stone Armor may need to be brought closer to other sets to make Granite more of an alternative, rather than the 'be all, end all' power of the set for constant mitigation.
Looking at an Invulnerability Tanker running Temp Invuln, Unyielding, and Invincibility (with 3 targets in range), you see the following.
End Cost .468
+35% Resistance (Smashing/Lethal)
+10,000% Resistance (Knockback, Knockup, Repel)
+10% Resistance (Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Toxic)
-12.975 Stun/Held/Sleep/Immobilize
+2% To Hit
+8% Defense (All but Psionics)
Mag 4 Taunt
If these numbers are correct, it looks like Stone Armor has arguably better mitigation than Invulnerability (considering only the toggles) even outside Granite (and without saturated Invincibility). Invulnerability's only clear advantage is mez protection. So that means it's not the other armors that are the issue, it's just Granite that (perhaps) needs a nerf.
All of the above leads me to the following idea: ablative armor.
* When you activate Granite Armor, you create a psuedopet that follows you around. This pet is effectively, the Granite Armor 'suit' itself.
* This pet, like a Henchman in Bodyguard Mode, takes some of the damage that you would otherwise take from each attack. In addion it grants you buffs and debuffs such that overall, it provides the mitigation inherent to Granite Armor today. This is the 'panic mode' version of the power. It is intended to be powerful but temporary.
* This pseudopet can be killed (it cannot be seperately targeted but attacks that damage you damage it also). It should have high hp, but no hp regeneration. Upon death, its' power will persist for a few seconds. Upon death, it also summons a new pseudopet that does a few things:
The new pet looks like a 'battle damaged' version of Granite.
It plays an animation that warns you that your armor is about to drop (such as your armor cracking)
It play a one-time explosion power: global damage, a little knockdown) when your Granite drops.
After your Granite drops, it suppresses your ability to activate Granite Armor for some time (an amount of time to be determined as appropriate via testing, I'd start off with a 10 minute downtime and work from there).
Finally, it grants you some defensive buffs; the 'nerfed' version of Granite that we want people to spend most of the time in. About equal to to the other toggles in the set combined, and without the speed and damage self-debuffs.
I don't think this breaks the cottage rule: in fact you get current Granite Armor effectively ported right over.
You can keep Granite up indefinitely as today, but if you run into too much damage, it will fall.
The set's constant mitigation in Granite is still superior, but not over the top on average (unless you avoid powerful enemies that can break it, in which case you are 'slumming' anyway).
You'd probably need to tweak the recharge on Granite to prevent abuse of 'refreshing' the armor by dropping it and retoggling.
...so, what do you guys think? Similar to the Emanator idea, but mobile and designed to give somewhat 'spikier' performance similar to to other sets while retaining the unique feel of a Tier 9 Toggle.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
Data point to consider: one of the examples I discussed on the forums (that predates the cottage rule post) was changing Evasion from a toggle to a click (and adding some additional features). At the time, Castle suggested to me (and I repeated on the forums) that the change from toggle to click itself was a potential violation of the power consistency rule aka the cottage rule. It didn't *disqualify* the change from being made, but it was a very strong point against such a change.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The cottage rule says that a power will not change the basic functionality of a power. The basic functionality of Granite Armor is to provide a high level of resistance and defense. The enamantor concept would still do this, so there's no real breaking of the cottage rule. The Cottage Rule was given that name specifically because it referred to making Build Up create a cottage rather than increase your damage and accuracy. If the cottage still increased your damage and accuracy, or increased it in a different way, then it wouldn't be breaking the cottage rule because that same functionality is still present within the new version of the power. Just look at the change from Conserve Power to Energize: the end redux got pushed almost completely to the side, but it's still there so the Cottage Rule isn't broken.
|
The cottage rule encompasses three things: Availability (when the power becomes available to the players aka the power's "tier"), Purpose (what the power does for the player), and Mechanics (how the power is used mechanically by the player: i.e. clicks vs toggles, AoEs vs Location AoEs, foe targeted vs self-targeted). It explicitly does not cover Strength (how large the magnitude of the power's effects are, which are always subject to balancing and tweaking), Synergy (the degree to which the power can be combined with other powers to enhance its effects), or Specific Builds (what effect that power has in a build specifically engineered to require the power to function in precisely the way it functions in any or all respects).
One more thing about the cottage rule: its not absolute. To break it, you have to demonstrate two things:
1. The change is necessary.
2. Alternatives that don't violate the rule won't work well enough.
Of course, whether a change passes both requirements is a judgment call on the part of the devs. And its not easy to pass both: out of all the times I've tried to convince Castle to break the cottage rule to implement a specific suggestion of mine, I've succeeded exactly never**.
** I've got a couple changes to happen in closed beta that would have been breaking the cottage rule, except the cottage rule doesn't kick in until the powers go live. Until then, no one has any expectation of consistency during a beta.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I'm 100% sure any buff can go into negatives. The only question would be what the min cap for end mods is, if it is zero it can trivially be set for less.
|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I'm not certain that's possible. I think the recovery minimum is 0.00% and the "Endurance Modification" minimum is also 0.00%. It -could- theoretically be modified, but wouldn't it be simpler to implement a Max Attribute penalty, which we know Endurance is capable of? I'll, again, suggest the Maximum End Penalty be -35 Maximum end. Able to be offset by slotting and accolades, but not easily.
-Rachel- |
Quote:
And yet, even though those situations have existed for as long as the game has been around (Nem lts stacking veng), it hasn't caused the devs to weep blood for any of the purely defense oriented sets that are affected in a much more negative manner.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Regarding defense debuff, the situations that concern me are actually ones where very strong tohit buffs are present, which can be roughly simulated by setting defense debuff to some absurdly high number but is probably best simulated by setting the defense values to -4.5. You may scoff, but I can think of a number of important encounters (and some more common ones) where defense is pretty much negated as a form of mitigation. Ask any SR or Shield or Ice player about crystal emanators, or Overseers, or the Mire Nictus, or tower-buffed Recluse.
|
Your argument here might actually bear some weight if it weren't for the fact that they're not exactly common and that Stone Armor isn't solely reliant, much less reliant in the majority (EE is probably the single strongest mitigation tool available aside from Granite Armor), on defense in order to survive. Arguing that just because one of the entire suites of mitigatory tools that Stone Armor has, the set needs to be given even more power doesn't really add up. If that line of logic actually worked, the other sets that rely on defense in their entirety would have gotten large scale increases to performance to make up for it. As it stands, those situations are probably considered to be situations that are meant to be overcome with buffs.
Sam's got a NEAT Suggestion!
I'd still like to work with the last one I came up with, however...
The biggest downside to capping maximum endurance is finding the middle ground. 50 points of end might be a bit low, all things considered... But I think anything higher than 65 could be too high, to be blunt. Why? End increasing Accolades and set mods.
You can get 10 extra endurance just from the accolades without an incredible fuss. In point of fact a hero can get both badges at level 1, if he caps his XP and has a friend help him farm/mish/TP to the various explorers and plaques.
So having a slightly elevated baseline of 65 turn into 75 with the potential to get higher with heavy IO slotting... I think that could work fairly well? Even with IOs in play the Stone Armor user still has endurance issues. If you ask me End issues are a far better countermeasure to overpowered armor than a speed penalty is. Especially since, even with end reduction, buffs, and +MAX End you're going to have end issues. Though it suddenly shines a bright light on Transference, though, doesn't it?
-Rachel-