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The Curse Breaker uses the RevokePower effect. It allows you to remove a power that was granted with the GrantPower effect. GrantPower has been around since the beginning of time, but I'm not sure about RevokePower: it could have been added post-launch. But that effect can remove a temporary power you were previously granted (I'm not sure what happens if you target a power that *wasn't* granted with GrantPower: that would be an interesting experiment).|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, I've known about that one since before Dual Pistols. Nectanedbo's Curse Breaker demonstrated that to me a while ago.
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The mechanism used by the ammunition toggles for Dual Pistols is completely different. It can be used to modify a specific type of power effect in every power you possess. That's how ammunition change works in Dual Pistols.
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Just as an aside, ablative armor is on my list of top ten game mechanical additions I'd like to see added to the game.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I like the idea of Ablative Armour, believe me. I just don't think it's a good idea for a T9 power as its sole limitation.
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Arcanaville, when you get a moment, would you please let me know whether the implementation of a psuedo ablative armor effect that I outlined is outside what is currently possible in the game engine as far as you know?
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The biggest problem with using pseudo pets to do this sort of thing is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no game mechanical way to "lock" the location of the pseudo pet to be the same as your location consistently. The pet would have to be programmed to follow you. It would be amusing, but perhaps not ideal, if players occasionally got their Granite Armor caught on a tree and left it behind.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Arcanaville, when you get a moment, would you please let me know whether the implementation of a psuedo ablative armor effect that I outlined is outside what is currently possible in the game engine as far as you know?
Run-on sentences ftw! |
Fast motion of any kind would also make it difficult for the pet to keep perfectly in sync with you: you could dance out of the armor as well. Ironically, this works best if Granite continues to have massive movement penalties.
I thought of a potentially interesting way to do this, but its the sort of thing that Castle would kill me for saying out loud, so I'm going to ask him first before repeating it. It falls under the category of "incredibly crazy idea that might work, but the devs would almost certainly rather not do."
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Ahh, my bad. I misread your post originally. I read that as "power" rather than "power effect". Even so, since the RevokePower in Nectanebo's Curse Breaker operates by acting on an arbitrary classification of power types, I'm not entirely surprised that it's possible to do the same to specific power effects.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The mechanism used by the ammunition toggles for Dual Pistols is completely different. It can be used to modify a specific type of power effect in every power you possess. That's how ammunition change works in Dual Pistols.
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I think most people want to see ablative armor, including the devs, however, I recall a dev (can't remember which, but I think it might have been Castle or pohsyb) saying that it wasn't possible within the limits of the current engine thanks to something on the back end.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Just as an aside, ablative armor is on my list of top ten game mechanical additions I'd like to see added to the game.
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I must say that in the end I'm just not sold on your suggestion. I think being able to run in Granite armor constantly isn't a bad thing. I do think Stone Armor under performs pre-Granite Armor and over performs in Granite.
Personally I'd approach Stone Armor in a different manner then you've chosen. The ideas aren't perfect, but they work better in my mind. So here's my thoughts on the matter.
- Rock Armor: Leave it as 16% s/l, add in 10% s/l resist-with the resist not enhanceable
- Stone Skin: 10% resist all but psi
- Brimstone Armor: Make it 16% f/c defense: keep 10% f/c resist, again leaving the resist un-enhanceable.
- Crystal Armor: Keep it 16% e/n defense, add in 10% e/n resist: ditto on the not enhanceable resist.
- Minerals: no psi defense, make it 25% psi resist, enhanceable.
- Granite Armor: 4% defense all but psi, 20% resist all but psi, enhanceable. Does not toggle off other armors. Keep in the -def, -rech, -spd. Change the recharge to ~30 sec, not enhanceable.
I've debated whether or not the resists in Granite should be higher or lower than 20%, but I think keeping it there is reasonable. Now you're only going to manage ~57% resist to all but psi (not including EE), instead of capped S/L and 78.7% resist to all but Psi. In the end, it is lowering the performance of being in Granite 24/7.
I'd also reduce the endurance cost of Rock, Brimstone and Crystal Armors to .21 end/sec but keep the other toggles the same cost. So running all 5 armors and Mud pots will put you in Dark Armor's end cost range.
- Rooted: Outside of Granite Armor, rooted would now have a -20% run speed and be changed to act like grounded while still costing the same endurance. However, I would create a flag so that, when Granite is toggled on, Rooted would still have it's original -90% run speed.
Here's the one part that I'm not completely sure is feasible within the game:
- Flag Speed boost in such a manner that any +rech and +speed will be 50% reduced while in Granite, but not reduced outside of Granite.
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Except that it doesn't matter whether you're using the old values or the new values: the end effect of the power (your survivability) is still roughly the same. My numbers were simply given to allow for the removal of mutual exclusivity. Whether you're using my values or the old values, the survivability increase is well beyond the increase that would be provided by the powers you're comparing them to because, either way, you're going from standard survivability to god mode survivability. The strength of the power itself doesn't matter so much as the end point of the power when the power is active.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I am not talking about retaining Granite Armor's current values and I haven't been for some time now. Should I go back and quote the three or four times I've already stated that? In fact, let me just start using a new name for the power that I am working toward as a replacement for the current Granite Armor.
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| You can leave their area of effect whenever you feel like it, at which point you have between 0 and 90 seconds (depending on your recharge time and the time you chose to leave the area) before you can resummon them. This is comparable to a toggle with an unenhanceable 2 to 3 minute recharge time - in fact, it's better, both in terms of time until available and in terms of endurance consumption to keep the power active. The toggle wins on cast time over a sufficiently long fight. |
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| You seem to feel that there is some fundamental property of tier 9 defensive powers that requires them to turn off after a specific period of time. I would like you to explain what that fundamental property is. As near as I can tell, you feel that it's not possible to balance a survivability bonus that can persist indefinitely within a single fight. Not only is it possible, however, but it's been done - that's precisely what Triage Beacon and Tree of Life do. Yet you are telling me that a power with equivalent benefits and restrictions cannot be balanced. Why? |
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What I'm saying is that if the armour is tough enough, it may well just survive long enough for its "summon" to recharge, thereby making it permanent. You'd need a good analysis of outgoing damage between your average AV and, say, your average 5-man spawn or some such, but I highly suspect they're on different levels entirely. That's the problem. Strong enough for an AV is too strong for everything else. Strong enough for everything else is too weak for an AV. Or so it seems, upon cursory examination.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I think you can, via the mechanism you may have overlooked in my post: the ablative armor 'pet' has hp, but NO hp regeneration. You can give the armor a HUGE amount of hp, enough to tank a fight with an AV, yet it is guaranteed to drop at some point when it runs out of hp, leaving you without it for a while.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If the pseudopet is untargetable and invisible, and all it's doing is sending a buff and costume change and being sent damage until it's dead, does it really matter where in a given zone the pet is? The range of those sorts of things could be set functionally infinite, as far as I can tell. Couldn't it just chill wherever you hit Granite and do everything from there? Or would this cause problems with the game having to keep that area in memory, or something?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The biggest problem with using pseudo pets to do this sort of thing is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no game mechanical way to "lock" the location of the pseudo pet to be the same as your location consistently. The pet would have to be programmed to follow you. It would be amusing, but perhaps not ideal, if players occasionally got their Granite Armor caught on a tree and left it behind.
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That's actually the crazy way I was going to ask Castle about. You could just make the pseudo pets grant a zone-wide buff to the player. But then every single Granite Tanker in a zone would be sending out zone-wide buffs. I'm not sure if that's computationally expensive or not in the general case, especially when something like a zone event happens (it depends on how the targeting system works to locate valid targets for a power effect).|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
If the pseudopet is untargetable and invisible, and all it's doing is sending a buff and costume change and being sent damage until it's dead, does it really matter where in a given zone the pet is? The range of those sorts of things could be set functionally infinite, as far as I can tell. Couldn't it just chill wherever you hit Granite and do everything from there? Or would this cause problems with the game having to keep that area in memory, or something?
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I'm also not sure if something can truly be completely undetectable and untargetable in all special circumstances, like say Hamidon raids. It might make for an interesting corner case exploit if Granite tankers could drop "distractions" in certain unusual circumstances.
There's a lot of potential catches to this kind of thing, and Granite tankers littering the landscape with invisible pets seems to be the sort of thing that would make them queasy.
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Sorry to break up my post like this, but I was looking for someone to quote on this, and I couldn't find one before I got gated by a reply to the thread 
So here it is: On movement penalty. I fully believe that, if Granite Armour's movement Penalty were ENFORCED, not just suggested, that a lot of people would start turning it off (or dump it entirely, or rage-quit), because a speed debuff you cannot get around KILLS your ability to play the game across more than one spawn. Trust me, I went 16-50 with unmitigated Rooted. I KNOW what it's like. Killing the speed cap down to whatever speed is necessary, banning travel powers and, above all else BANNING TELEPORT from being used with Granite Armour would be reason enough for people to turn it off. I'm not sure there's any question about that. When your run speed can't be buffed past what you're capped at and you can't sidestep it by teleporting, you WILL turn the armour off.
The question that this spawns, as I've noticed, is whether this is still penalty enough. Other T9 powers provide comparable protection, but they come at the cost of limited uptime and crashes at the end. So is it balanced for Granite Armour to not have one? Personally, I would say yes, but that's subjective opinion. Being what it is, Stone Armour's entire concept is ultimate defence. I honestly don't know why they decided to give it Mud Pots, but that's besides the point. As such, I don't mind seeing Stone Armour either outperform or at least match up other sets with fewer drawbacks (relatively speaking), so I don't see Granite Armour ending without a crash as a problem.
After all, other sets have to suffer crashes, but Granite Armour would suffer serious movement penalties while it's on, which I consider to be a fair tradeoff. Again, I'm biassed because I HATE self-debuff effects in powers, but if the judgement call were up to me, I wouldn't turn down a Granite Armour design balanced by unmitigatable movement penalties alone.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Then adjust the strength down until the end point is satisfactory.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The strength of the power itself doesn't matter so much as the end point of the power when the power is active.
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| First off, it's not actually between 0 and 90 seconds. It could be anywhere in a larger range because the power has a duration of 90 seconds (which you can choose to leave early) and a base recharge of 200 seconds (which can be reduced up to 40 seconds at cap recharge). |
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| And I would tell you that Tree of Life and Triage Beacon are not valid precedent to be using because they're not the equivalent of god mode powers, which are both intended to have limited uptime and a substantial drawback. The powers you are attempting to draw likeness to are intended to be buffs (which are actually weaker over time than Regen Aura), which are not intended to have any drawbacks, whereas god modes are intended to have drawbacks, as evidenced by every single one having a drawback. |
(By the way, you should try plugging in the SO'd numbers for a Traps user running Tough, Weave, a patron armor, the shield drone, and Triage Beacon in the mitigation calculator. Then consider that a Traps character also benefits from Seeker Drones' -damage effect and Acid Mortar's -res effect, and that -res boosts -dam. Then consider that many of these effects benefit not only the Trapper but also all allies. It may prove enlightening in terms of what is allowable for damage mitigation in a standing fight, even when you account for the fact that the Trapper has at most half of a Tanker's HP...)
I find this discussion more tiring and arduous than necessary, because you're being extremely ungenerous in your interpretation of my statements. All of the clarifications above are things you could have allowed for and didn't. If your goal here is to "win" rather than to have a productive discussion, then I will bow out; I've made my case as best I can, and winning ultimately inconsequential arguments on the internet is not a good use of my time.
@SPTrashcan
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I forgot to mention this the first time around, but there is a problem with this design. You can't change the buff component to stack over time like that: Granite has to more or less reach full strength immediately (the debuff can apply over time).|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Here's my preferred realistic scenario:
- Granite continues to be a toggle that can be maintained indefinitely. This is my dealbreaker. As previously noted, there is no rule that a tier 9 power cannot run continuously, and there does not need to be any such rule. - The benefits of Granite are significantly reduced, because Granite as it exists now breaks encounters, per Starsman's reasoning. - The drawbacks to running Granite continually are made significantly stronger and less circumventable, but not to the point where there is never a circumstance where you would want to do it - otherwise, what's the point of even having the capability? - The remainder of the set is improved so that Granite is not required for survivability in most ordinary circumstances. I rather like the increasing recovery penalty, and it got me thinking. Suppose Granite is a non-exclusive toggle. Every activation period, Granite applies a small buff to resistance and defense, and a small debuff to recharge, damage, movement speed, and recovery. These buffs and debuffs last for somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 seconds, and they stack. So, when you activate Granite, you gradually become more and more tough until you reach a survivability peak, but you also become less and less capable of moving and attacking. (Incidentally, if you can think of a way to circumvent this, I'd be happy to replace it with something less circumventable. I am not trying to dodge a significant downside to the power.) At Granite's peak, you are a sluggish, nigh-immobile, nigh-indestructable mountain. Turn off the toggle, and you gradually (well, over the course of 15 or so seconds) decalcify back to your normal offensive and defensive capabilities. It's a fairly out-there idea, but it appeals to me. |
The reason has to do with a lesson regarding Instant Healing. When the devs were monkeying around with IH, one of the things they did to try to enforce a cooldown on IH was to increase its recharge to a very high value: 60 seconds if I remember correctly. By doing so, the devs felt that IH would no longer be used all the time because there would be a definite period of time where it was unusable, after it was detoggled.
The problem was that very long cooldown only encouraged players to never detoggle IH. The cost for detoggling IH was that if you found you needed it again you couldn't have it. That encouraged people to say, the heck with that, I'll run it all the time and learn to live with its penalties.
A related problem occurs if Granite/Calcify requires significant ramp up time. Especially for tankers, and generally for anything likely to need the strength of this power, you're likely to need it most at the start of a fight and not the end, near where you first toggle it on. The movement penalty eliminates the option of toggling it on *in advance* of the fight because if you do you'll never actually make it to the fight. And if the movement penalties are strong enough that its basically impractical to run Granite all the time, the players will have a quandry, because the designed way for Granite to be used doesn't provide the actual protection the player requires in the right way.
I don't think ramp-up tier 9 defensive powers don't make sense in this case. They would only make sense as inverse crashes that were out of the control of the player. For example, if I was making a Blaster epic protection power, I might make something like Foce of Nature but as a toggle which ramped up. Here, the compensating control is that blasters don't have mez protection, so they could be mezzed out of the toggle. If they are, they can retoggle but the protection would slowly build up and not be "instant on." That's a form of mechanical trade off that makes sense in that situation.
In the case of Granite or Granite substitutes for a melee defensive set, I think it makes less sense.
I was thinking about alternatives to endurance-based compensators for Granite, and one of the options I've been toying with is that of movement debuffs tied to attacks. In other words, suppose that when you are in Granite every attack that hits you debuffs your movement. In the heat of the fight, you'd basically be practically locked down. But as the fight tailed off, that movement debuff would weaken, and when the fight was over the debuff would expire and you could move between spawns.
If you think about it, defense when there's nothing attacking you is never overpowered. Mitigation only matters in an actual fight. So if the debuff only exists during the fight, that serves most of the requirements of game balance.
Mechanically, I don't know if that is actually possible: it might require new tech.
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umbral talk lot.
granite good so why umbral want make granite bad like other bad tanks?
only wish make rocky and crystaly armor resistance not defenstance then all make better.
anyone touch good and special places on stone tanks in bad way make many angry. not good making stone tanks angry.
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
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Yeah, I realized that pretty soon after I proposed it. It's fun conceptually, but somewhat impractical mechanically. Maybe slightly less impractical than you might think, though; through practice, I've gotten good enough at gauging Rooted's (non-rooting) activation time that I can start running toward a spawn, activate it along the way, and have the effects of the power kick in just as I hit the group. The same thing could be done with a power that has a spin-up time, but it'd be a delicate balancing act and probably more trouble than it's worth.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I forgot to mention this the first time around, but there is a problem with this design...
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As for your suggestion, I think the difference between a constant movement debuff and one that accumulates as you attack is that the former encourages you to turn the toggle off as soon as the fight is over, and once it's off it has to stay off until it recharges. Of course, if the accumulating movement debuff were persistent enough that it dramatically increased the time it takes to get to the next fight, it'd likewise encourage leaving the toggle off unless you absolutely needed it, because you know that once you turn it on you're going to have to waste some time at the end of the fight getting unstuck. It'd have the effect of a full crash in terms of retarding progress, but not in terms of wrecking survivability.
In fact, you could combine the effects. While the power is on, you have lowered movement speed, so you can't move on until you turn it off - but when you turn it off, you lose all endurance, so you get another speed penalty while you rest and reactivate toggles and so on.
@SPTrashcan
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Aren't you basically talking about travel power suppression? As I understand it, "movement buff" effects in travel powers suppress when you attack, so it's not inconceivable to think that the power could apply a large speed debuff all the time, but also provide a suppressable speed buff that activates when you attack or are attacked, essentially cancelling out the effect. Provided both the buff and debuff are immune to outside modifiers (like enhancements and resistances), then it should be mechanically possible to work. Not sure how it would interact with other movement speed buffs, but I don't assum there'd be anything too out of the ordinary.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was thinking about alternatives to endurance-based compensators for Granite, and one of the options I've been toying with is that of movement debuffs tied to attacks. In other words, suppose that when you are in Granite every attack that hits you debuffs your movement. In the heat of the fight, you'd basically be practically locked down. But as the fight tailed off, that movement debuff would weaken, and when the fight was over the debuff would expire and you could move between spawns.
If you think about it, defense when there's nothing attacking you is never overpowered. Mitigation only matters in an actual fight. So if the debuff only exists during the fight, that serves most of the requirements of game balance. Mechanically, I don't know if that is actually possible: it might require new tech. |
That said... I'm not a fan of this solution, for the simple fact that it does nothing to mitigate Granite Armour's perpetual availability, not anything to solve the problem of Granite Tanks getting T9 protection permanently. The absolute movement debuff discussed before does this by forcing people to detoggle if they want to travel and my eminator idea forces it by anchoring the buff to a specific location. Umbral's approach forces this via direct intervention - they system toggles your armour off and forces you to wait for it to recharge. All of those revolve around giving Granite Armour full functionality but limiting in on uptime. Movement speed suppression doesn't do that. It hurts the armour in combat, exactly when it needs its speed the most, yet benefits the armour in out-of combat mobility, exactly where it should suck.
To be honest, it's a mechanically beautiful fix, but conceptually and practically, it sounds like the complete opposite of what we should be shooting for.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Understood. Perhaps the Devs (or you) know whether a speed-capped/teleporting pet would work well enough, especially if that were combined with a large radius buff effect dedicated to the caster (thanks, MagicFlyingHippy).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The biggest problem with using pseudo pets to do this sort of thing is that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no game mechanical way to "lock" the location of the pseudo pet to be the same as your location consistently.
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I don't consider that to be a problem in and of itself. Some things basically have their full strength all of the time, with caveats other than uptime. Dark Armor is an example. It does not have a conventional tier 9 defensive power. So whatever its full strength is, it has it all the time. And given Dark Armor's design, I don't think that is problematic, because it has other design considerations that make that reasonable.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That said... I'm not a fan of this solution, for the simple fact that it does nothing to mitigate Granite Armour's perpetual availability, not anything to solve the problem of Granite Tanks getting T9 protection permanently.
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I don't think the solution is to force people out of Granite. Rather, I think the solution is to balance the strengths and weaknesses of Granite to make running it or not running it viable alternatives. And to be honest, if Granite suppressed Rooted's regeneration, you'd probably be most of the way there. But I don't find that to be a conceptually palatable fix.
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One component of the power would be a suppression effect preventing it from being recast right after it 'broke'. You could use the same effect when it was detoggled to force a specific time gap between activations, perhaps instead of a recharge time.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What I'm saying is that if the armour is tough enough, it may well just survive long enough for its "summon" to recharge, thereby making it permanent.
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I wonder if it would be palatable if toggling Granite armor made all of your attacks animate 25% slower.
BaB would have a fit, but I don't think that is intrinsicly impossible to pull off.
(Basically, have Granite set a mode bit which passed to the sequencers, then mass copy *every* possible attack animation sequencer and adjust the timing in each plus add the required bit. I could probably write a script to do that in theory, but it would add several hundred animation sequence files to the animation system which the animators would then have to maintain, rather like the Flying versions of attacks. Not pretty.)
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What would making your attacks animate slower accomplish that increasing the recharge on your attacks doesn't?
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You can't slot for faster animation time.
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Originally Posted by reiella
Until I see something that states to the contrary, going to assume VK is right
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D'oh! Okay that makes sense.
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Either the movement penalties are a balancing point and should apply to all movement modes, or they should be removed.
I think the best thing to do while we are waving our wands and fixing the power would be to (as a previous poster suggested) have Granite apply movement caps rather than penalties, apply those caps to all movement powers, and balance the other aspects of the power accordingly.
It is no harder to conceptualize it being harder to teleport an object based on its mass than it is to conceptualize it being harder to move around while carrying it (despite some undefined level of superhuman strength or psionic/technlogical/magical ability to move earth).
EDIT: To clarify, I think that in Granite you should be able to jump a little, fly/hover very slowly, run somewhat, and teleport not-as-far-as-before.
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