actually they do, they have no DDR so any -def will kill their defenses
the widows suffer from this a little more than the soldiers, but they both are weak to defense debuffs
They also have lower hp and do better in teams. So they do stack really well, but they do still have weak points. Also, depending on the combination, they may do better with large amounts of weak targets, rather than a hard target (like and EB or boss).
Khelds don't really have Kryptonite anymore, either. Even back in the day, a Kheld could handle their special enemies just fine if they approached them right (and arguably, there among the better ATs to handle cysts up close, too).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
did some one negative rep me for this topic?
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Be pretty silly if they did.|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
did some one negative rep me for this topic?
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Anyway, tankmage = massive damage output in complete safety.
Honestly, that describes any AT with mez protection and IOs playing at base difficulty.
SoAs are ok solo. Cranked to the gills they're great solo. Get a team of them together and they'll slaughter everything in front of them.
But that's true for some others as well.
As mentioned, lack of DDR keeps them in check.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I highly doubt defender, corr, or blaster would fit this description. Doms MMs and Trollers might though
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Be pretty silly if they did.
Anyway, tankmage = massive damage output in complete safety. Honestly, that describes any AT with mez protection and IOs playing at base difficulty. SoAs are ok solo. Cranked to the gills they're great solo. Get a team of them together and they'll slaughter everything in front of them. But that's true for some others as well. As mentioned, lack of DDR keeps them in check. |
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Ever heard of the Repeat Offenders?|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I highly doubt defender, corr, or blaster would fit this description. Doms MMs and Trollers might though
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I'll put it this way: 8 defenders will waltz through a +4/x8 mission faster than 8 scrappers.
Of course the scrapper will win while solo. EDIT: Moot point, as I did state ATs with mez protection. Most buff/debuffers don't get that.
The reason that someone probably neg-repped you, which I countered just for the halibut, is that usually when someone pops out the "tankmage" statement they're looking to get something nerfed.
There's nothing that a SoA can do solo that a scrapper or brute with a comparably expensive build won't do faster and/or with less faceplants.
SoAs are well balanced for what they do. I found that all of mine weren't a whole lotta fun until 24 and the branches. So, tankmages? No. Just fun and now in that "I Win" button kind of way.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Actually, widows get a decent bit of enhanceable DDR: foresight gives 17% base and (if you 6-slot it with lvl 50 def IOs) you can squeeze out 41% from it. On top of that, NW's elude grands another 34% I believe and adds in a good bit of additional defense to boot.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
actually they do, they have no DDR so any -def will kill their defenses
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So, for a 3 minute window anyway, a NW can have @ 75% DDR and have enough stacked defense to be largely untouchable.
Outside of that though, yeah gotta make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew solo. Even IOed to the gills an overlap on a +8/+2 map when facing malta or carnies can put me at serious risk. But without risk where's the fun? =D
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That's hardly kryptonite considering everyone but a select few powersets suffers from that. Plus soldiers have decent resists to back up their defenses. Add good mez protection and I'd say you have a pretty good case for the mythic "tankmage".
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
actually they do, they have no DDR so any -def will kill their defenses
the widows suffer from this a little more than the soldiers, but they both are weak to defense debuffs |
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Acting as backup for this. Did a +4 ITF last night with RO. 2 scrappers (one DCed before the last mish), 1 troller (mind/something, didn't catch the secondary), a 'Shade (me) and the rest were defenders. Think we had Rad, Dark, FF, and Sonic. It wasn't super fast, but I had capped resists the whole time and was able to tank everything with no problems. That was crazy fun, better than if we had tried it with just scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Ever heard of the Repeat Offenders?
I'll put it this way: 8 defenders will waltz through a +4/x8 mission faster than 8 scrappers. |
I love RO!
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Not really. "Tankmage" implies being able to do obscene damage on top of being hard as hell to kill. Crabs are sturdy, but their damage (aside from Omega Maneuver) isn't anything to write home about - ithey're good for AoEing, but it's nothing you can't really get elsewhere. Banes have good damage but no DDR and poor resists. The devs did a reasonably good job balancing them out, although Banes could use a small buff, honestly.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
Plus soldiers have decent resists to back up their defenses. Add good mez protection and I'd say you have a pretty good case for the mythic "tankmage".
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Heck - you want a tank mage, I offer my fire/shield scrapper. She is at the softcap to all positions, has a decent amount of DDR (as much or more than any VEAT) and dishes out HUGE amounts of damage. She soloes at x4 without even breaking a sweat and only runs that low because I am lazy and like to goof off. My shield/ss tank is pretty nice as well, not quite as much ddamage but can take even more. |
Originally Posted by dave_p
That's hardly kryptonite considering everyone but a select few powersets suffers from that. Plus soldiers have decent resists to back up their defenses. Add good mez protection and I'd say you have a pretty good case for the mythic "tankmage".
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The fact is that a scrapper or brute with decent AE will be about as much or more a tank mage as a VEAT - the primary difference is the VEAT buffs the team as well and have a little more range - but range is NOT garunteed protection in this game like it is in the classic MMORG, so the usual 'tank mage' doesn't really exist here.
I find it amusing how everyone is so worried about gimping the ranged classes so they can't be a 'tank mage' but totally ignore the amount of damage a scrapper or brute can dish out/take. I have found myself unable to play ranged classes lately because I find them SOO squishy and they don't kill any faster than my melee chars - much slower in many cases. VEATs are the only ranged class I don't find to squishy, although dominators are ok after the last set of changes.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Is SoA an acronym for Shields? 
Cause that is the answer to the question.
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I think it is the devs over valuing range, or under valuing how easy using melee actually is, or a combination.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
I find it amusing how everyone is so worried about gimping the ranged classes so they can't be a 'tank mage' but totally ignore the amount of damage a scrapper or brute can dish out/take. I have found myself unable to play ranged classes lately because I find them SOO squishy and they don't kill any faster than my melee chars - much slower in many cases. VEATs are the only ranged class I don't find to squishy, although dominators are ok after the last set of changes.
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Something is amiss because you have brutes and scrappers that are second only to blasters in dealing damage in actual play (sometimes more because they don't have to restrain themselves) and they are second only to tanks in surviving.
The devs must think ranged damage is just amazing and being melee is a huge disadvantage because the damage to survivability ratio found in the "damage" classes is out to lunch.
I have to agree that playing squishies is stressing at times because they are so blatantly squishy compared to the armored AT's while often dealing less damage. I still prefer to play squishes because for me they are more fun and because all my melee toons ultimately play the same way. But the difference in relative power is astoundingly in favor of scraps/brutes.
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Range actually is amazing. The game mostly follows an aimed fire model, if you are facing 8 enemies and you can can eliminate one before they are in range its nearly a 1/4 reduction in their effectiveness, if you can take out 2 it takes down their effectiveness by 7/16|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I think it is the devs over valuing range, or under valuing how easy using melee actually is, or a combination.
Something is amiss because you have brutes and scrappers that are second only to blasters in dealing damage in actual play (sometimes more because they don't have to restrain themselves) and they are second only to tanks in surviving. The devs must think ranged damage is just amazing and being melee is a huge disadvantage because the damage to survivability ratio found in the "damage" classes is out to lunch. I have to agree that playing squishies is stressing at times because they are so blatantly squishy compared to the armored AT's while often dealing less damage. I still prefer to play squishes because for me they are more fun and because all my melee toons ultimately play the same way. But the difference in relative power is astoundingly in favor of scraps/brutes. |
The problem is that the devs have gone overboard in making melee classes viable
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I agree range is intended to be amazing. But melee has almost no disadvantage in this game.
One major issue with CO is that range has no disadvantage and melee actually does, here it is pretty much opposite.
edit: I disagree with your math, but it is not really important for the purpose of this point.
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8 Blasters: Seen when DP went live and on test. So much damage output the mobs just cant cope. Mass death|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I highly doubt defender, corr, or blaster would fit this description. Doms MMs and Trollers might though
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8 Corrs: Similar, but with buffs and debuffs for added insanity. Mobs are hamstrung and then shot to pieces. Mass death
8 Defenders: See above, only in reverse. Arguably nastier/tougher, because the buffs/debuffs are more powerful, and either make the team nigh indestructable, or make the Mobs next to useless. Or, in the case of 8 Sonic/Sonic Defenders, both. (Floored -res and massive team res) Mass death
8 of anything tends to be very powerful. 8 Kheldians is a sight I want to see sometime, especially if there are a fair few tri-formers. Nova squadron anyone?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The quote you replied to was talking about solo characters, though.
I don't know Corruptors that much, but Blasters can solo quite well. I solo them at almost the same levels as my Tanks and Scrappers, and they do so at quite speedy levels... I would hazard to guess they level faster soloing, but it might be more equal than I think.
People are ignoring the benefits of range in some of this discussion. Scrappers are great soloers (and I like them), but if you're going for absolute speed and min-maxing, ranged damage is the best option. You can engage mobs more quickly and hit more targets, as well as avoiding many nasty up close powers.
Luckily, the game doesn't call for that. Most ATs and powerset combinations can team together successfully, as well as soloing (though a change in strategy or slightly lower difficulty setting might be needed).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Meh. Misinterpreted from part of Bill Z's post.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
The quote you replied to was talking about solo characters, though.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I thought the commonly accepted definition of a "tankmage" was a ranged damage class w/tank-like defenses (or a tank w/uber-ranged damage)? I mean, if all you want is a tough damage dealer, yeah, by definition most scrappers & brutes will fit. A def-capped blaster is absolutely a tankmage. So's a IO'ed out Fire/Kin. The difference w/a soldier is that you don't need to IO the hell out of it (at least not as much) to get high defenses (combination of actual defense, resistance & mez protection) and good AoE damage. And again, mez protection, which most of the other ranged classes lack. Granted, I'm looking more at the defensive side of things--your definition of "obscene" damage may vary a bit.
Seriously, capped ranged & AoE def (high 20s melee & most typed too), mez protection, 30-45% resistances nearly across the board and a gapless AoE attack chain. Yeah, that's IO'ed out, but still a bit (lots) better defensively than a comparably IO'ed out blaster, controller, dom, corr, whatever. How's that not a tank-mage? Oh, and I say this very lovingly, not as some rant for balance. I like my Crabs, just fine.
As for the range vs melee, Pilgrim touches on it, but I think a big disparity it's the effective AoE radii. Most melee cones & even PBAoEs aren't very big in effect (obvious exceptions exist like FS, SC, & LR). Ranged has Fireball, rains, various cones that can be extended, and did I mention Fireball? At the end of the day they will deal out a lot more total damage. Plus, even for ST damage, ranged doesn't waste time chasing crap down. 
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
IOs aren't, and never should truly be, the balance point of any AT or set. SO level achievment is.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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this, since the game currently is based around SOs and if you IO anything out then it will basically turn into a god (like blasters with super high rech who have like a 20-30 sec timer on nukes, ect)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
IOs aren't, and never should truly be, the balance point of any AT or set. SO level achievment is.
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Who's talking about balance? Did the OP specify SO builds only while I wasn't looking? I'm just saying certain things can be built up to tankmage status, and Crabs are perhaps the easiest to do so. In fact, if you want to remove IOs entirely, Crabs are maybe the only AT that can be termed a tankmage on SO strength only (again, mitigation, mez protection & AoE damage, straight out of the box).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Tankmage usually implies you don't have any weak points and nothing can touch you, though. While a Blaster at the def cap is fairly strong, hard targets are still a trouble for them, especially if they're a boss or EB with a Tier 9. Even worse if they have def debuff (I'm looking at you, Silver Mantis! I hates you!).
SoAs are in the same boat, and might be worse off, depending on their power setup (as I mentioned before, they'll have a harder time if they're AOE focused).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
They can take damage and dish it out very well, and unlike kields they have no kryptonite...