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I have no interest in educating those that are unable to educate themselves. How bout you name a build that you think is the best at something and I'll make you a controller build that will beat it. Feel free to also remember the specificness to which I said the claim about controllers.
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Originally Posted by Black_Strike
I ain't buying. You said that Trollers are better than every other AT out there. No sell.
[Edit] Back it up with the math for every AT in the Game, with every possible Powerset Combo, and all Possible IO builds. Then I will concede your point. |
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And with one statement, you're wrong - again. All anyone has to do is a direct comparison of shared powers. They don't even have to finish creating the character, as you can compare from level 1 to level 50. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Controllers can do everything better than everyone else.
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Buffs/debuffs? Controllers and MMs tend to share the same values - both of which will be lower than a Defender. (Not all sets are shared with Corruptors among these.)
Controls? Controllers will have the controls last longer at lower damage than a Dominator. Doms get higher base damage. And before you go into "And debuffing them/buffing yourself blah blah blah," that's an assumption you're making to try to support a blanket statement. Yes, a Controller gets containment damage, as well. A Dominator does have one thing you can be sure of that you can't say about a Controller - they will have MORE damage from their secondary, guaranteed. It's what their secondary DOES.
What gets me is you make this blanket pronouncement of "Controllers do everything better than everyone!" and then finally make the CYA statement: "Things like fire/rad, ill/rad, fire/kin, plant/kin, fire/storm, earth/storm, ill/cold and others are simply disturbingly powerful if built to the purpose."
Hmm. Looks like specific builds to me. I'm solidly unsurprised, however, that you can maintain that utter disconnect.
Now, if you'd said "Some controller builds can do incredible things," and left it at that, hey, no argument. Every pairing plays differently. The same is true of every AT. But that's a FAR cry from "Controllers can do everything better than everyone else."
Perhaps it's time for you to learn the difference between the paint sprayer used on your house and a 10/0 brush.
You're welcome to join Black Strike in my offer as well Memphis. I'm willing to take the burden of proof onto myself.
Certain things are implied when you make a statement and you expect a certain level of intelligence to be displayed by the audience. That hasn't been met in this discussion, but that's ok because I'm willing to show you if you take an interest in learning.
Obviously I'm going to be talking about certain builds, what an idiotic thing to try and counter. Can you roll an AT and play it? no you roll a specific powerset combination from within an AT construct. Jesus it really is true what they say about common sense.
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Then quit making blanket statements. They're rarely 100% true. That goes to "Controllers can do everything better" as well as "Defenders are healers," "Stalkers only do hit and run," and the like. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
You're welcome to join Black Strike in my offer as well Memphis. I'm willing to take the burden of proof onto myself.
Certain things are implied when you make a statement and you expect a certain level of intelligence to be displayed by the audience. That hasn't been met in this discussion, but that's ok because I'm willing to show you if you take an interest in learning. Obviously I'm going to be talking about certain builds, what an idiotic thing to try and counter. Can you roll an AT and play it? no you roll a specific powerset combination from within an AT construct. Jesus it really is true what they say about common sense. |
I've been on the forum long enough to see others play your little game, too. You're going to want to get more and more specific until yes, you do have something that can - oh - let's go with solo a pylon as an example. I know Ill/Storm can, depending on build... as do *multiple* scrapper builds, by comparison. (Just browse through that forum.)
You DID notice this, yes? Here, let me bold the relevant bit - which even you are trying to rewrite to say "That's what I said," ignoring what you're being called on:
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| Now, if you'd said "Some controller builds can do incredible things," and left it at that, hey, no argument. Every pairing plays differently. |
(This also goes, in a way, to "purpling out builds." I don't care what a purpled out build can do. I want to know what an SO build will do. That tells me about the powerset, not the IOs.)
Not every controller build is the most powerful build in the game, but the most powerful builds in the game are controller builds. This seems both clear and accurate to me.
By the way:
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Fulcrum Shift.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
A Dominator does have one thing you can be sure of that you can't say about a Controller - they will have MORE damage from their secondary, guaranteed. It's what their secondary DOES.
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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I didn't say those things though. I wouldn't say those things because those statements aren't true.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Then quit making blanket statements. They're rarely 100% true. "Defenders are healers," "Stalkers only do hit and run," and the like.
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I said trollers are a. The most powerful class in the game. b. Because they are the best at everything. I said that because it is true. Of course it takes specific builds specialized to do certain tasks, that is true of every AT in the game. No different for trollers they are amazing, but they don't transcend the confines of the game.
Now "best" is a nebulous term, there are probably a couple activities where a troller is only in the top 3. Probably, maybe. I can't think of what it would be, but it probably exists. That said, no other AT comes close to having a build(s) that can medal in every single conceivable game scenario, which pretty definitively classifies them as the best and most powerful AT in the game
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| let's go with solo a pylon as an example. I know Ill/Storm can, depending on build... as do *multiple* scrapper builds, by comparison. |
I do actually have a question, Frosticus. A while ago you posted a theoretical Fire/Fire Dom build that, as near as you could tell, had the highest possible indefinitely sustainable ST DPS of any character. At that time I think you said that the prior contender for this title was a Fire/Elec Blaster. For this particular challenge, is there a controller build that comes in third? My uneducated guess for a contender would be a Fire/Rad/Stone or Fire/Kin/Stone, but I'd like to know your opinion.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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My Necro/Dark was more reliably hard to kill than any controller I've played (including my Illusion/Storm). Vs tough EBs my Illusion/Storm would be fine for 60 seconds until PAs dropped and then was in bother. My Necro/Dark never came across an EB he couldn't take down.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I have no interest in educating those that are unable to educate themselves. How bout you name a build that you think is the best at something and I'll make you a controller build that will beat it. Feel free to also remember the specificness to which I said the claim about controllers.
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This is talking about mainly SO only builds mind, not IOed up to the gills (where something like a perma-PA Illusion/Rad is a monster vs EBs or other hard targets). In terms of SO only builds while levelling I'd rank MMs and Brutes ahead of controllers generally. MMs are probably the "best" in terms of giving excellent performance with little investment needed.
If you're talking about "potentially the best given infinite resources" then a IO'd up Controller build will probably beat any other comparable IO'd up build. However I wouldn't consider such an edge case to be the norm (nor would the game developers I think), and therefore wouldn't consider Controllers the "best" AT. I'd give that accolade to Masterminds, and even then it's a nebulous term.
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Ya that dom was frickin' sick. You should see the ill/fire dom I have planned if we ever get it and it would actually be able to leverage the damage in situations that matter to have that kind of damage potential.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I do actually have a question, Frosticus. A while ago you posted a theoretical Fire/Fire Dom build that, as near as you could tell, had the highest possible indefinitely sustainable ST DPS of any character. At that time I think you said that the prior contender for this title was a Fire/Elec Blaster. For this particular challenge, is there a controller build that comes in third? My uneducated guess for a contender would be a Fire/Rad/Stone or Fire/Kin/Stone, but I'd like to know your opinion.
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There is a reason I noted this caveat earlier:
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Top end controller builds have considerably more aoe damage than dominators and are ahead of every dominator secondary except /fire for single target damage too.
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I know it was theorized that fire/elec blasters should be above 300 and they do, but not once you factor in all the powersink spamming that needs to occur to actually run it.
I think the two top damage single target damage builds go to fire/fire/mace dom and a bane/w mace epic perma pet build (even with all the redraw factored in). I'm confident that both could break 400, or at least come within kissing distance of it.
The problem of course is that neither of those toons really has anywhere they can flex that ability in game. It is more of just a figure to brag about vs dummy targets
The problem lies in the definition of damage. Everything that extreme dps is of value against tends to also have a high regeneration rate, so -regen starts to become analogous with damage. Not to dodge the question, but what kind of target do you set to be the standard because -regen is of high value vs AV's and extremely high value vs GM's.
The other issue is that everything that such high damage is useful against usually requires fairly high survivability. Which pretty much junks that fire/fire dom build I constructed.
That said, there are a number of builds (fire/rad, fire/therm, ill/cold, fire/cold and probably a few more) that at least on paper can break into he low 300's of effective dps vs AV's and actually have the survivability to showcase it.
On paper I know of a few builds that can edge trollers out for single target damage, some by a fair amount. In game and actually using the build against things that allow high st damage to be utilized it is a lot less clear. I managed to kill Chimera in 1:58 on my fire/storm just prior to the LS nerf (that is 333 raw dps cause no -regen). I was building it to hit 350 and would have too and the only reason I was doing that was because it would be faster than a fire/rad/fire by about 20 dps in the same situation and I wanted to prove that storm could provide enough damage to defeat the claim that regen is king vs AV's.
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MM's are insane too. I finally got around to leveling one and tbh my bots/storm is almost unparalleled in power.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
My Necro/Dark was more reliably hard to kill than any controller I've played (including my Illusion/Storm). Vs tough EBs my Illusion/Storm would be fine for 60 seconds until PAs dropped and then was in bother. My Necro/Dark never came across an EB he couldn't take down.
This is talking about mainly SO only builds mind, not IOed up to the gills (where something like a perma-PA Illusion/Rad is a monster vs EBs or other hard targets). In terms of SO only builds while levelling I'd rank MMs and Brutes ahead of controllers generally. MMs are probably the "best" in terms of giving excellent performance with little investment needed. If you're talking about "potentially the best given infinite resources" then a IO'd up Controller build will probably beat any other comparable IO'd up build. However I wouldn't consider such an edge case to be the norm (nor would the game developers I think), and therefore wouldn't consider Controllers the "best" AT. I'd give that accolade to Masterminds, and even then it's a nebulous term. |
That said, yes I'm specifically talking about peak potential. The best means no limitations. Far from norm of course, nowhere near what the average user will experience with the toons and very much tweaked to be extreme corner cases. Heck, just slotting a controllers controls for damage is straying far from the norm
The best "cheap" toons, if that is a category able to be distinguished are probably MM's and brutes, like you say.
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I did not ask for you to Educate me or anyone else. You made a loose claim, based on specific builds built to specific ends, and from that Stated that Controllers are the best AT in the game. Better than any other AT in the game. I continue to disagree with you.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
I have no interest in educating those that are unable to educate themselves. How bout you name a build that you think is the best at something and I'll make you a controller build that will beat it. Feel free to also remember the specificness to which I said the claim about controllers.
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Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Controllers can do everything better than everyone else. They aren't hugely popular because they take a long time to mature and even while outperforming everyone else they do it subtlety with a very high flow of dot damage rather than huge orange numbers (exception being controller seismic smash). That and very few people spec their controllers to maximize damage output.
Things like fire/rad, ill/rad, fire/kin, plant/kin, fire/storm, earth/storm, ill/cold and others are simply disturbingly powerful if built to the purpose. And no I don't mean something as niche as a fire/kin farming s/l mobs only. People that think that combo is limited to doing that have either never played it or don't know how to play it. Trollers do have some deep lows as well, but you'd no more pick something like an ice/ff troller for the purpose of dealing damage than you'd pick a /nrg dom for the purpose of dealing aoe damage. That is implied and really shouldn't need to be stated, but I'm doing it because it probably does need to be stated or someone will come along and pick that nit. edit: see what I mean? Why can they be more powerful than dominators? because buff/debuff sets are > assault sets at determining peak power and because trollers have exceptionally potent epic powersets available to them. It results in a very different playstyle, which I already pointed out though. |
I think this is bad advice to give a newb.
Sure very specific IO'd troller builds can attain almost cosmic lvl power in this game, but by-and-by, NO I dont agree they're the best.
Those specific builds would be fire/kins, fire/storms, fire/rads, ill/rad,
And the specifics I gave are largely based on /secondaries that either do damage or increase damage via -resistance or +damage.
Something like an earth/FF or an ice/emp would suck to play if you wanted solo speed.
Remember Frost, this is a new player asking for beginning advice on playstyle differences between doms and trollers.
Blanket statements like the 1 I quoted wont help that newb lvl from 1-50.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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If the thread progression is followed:|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
I think this is bad advice to give a newb.
Sure very specific IO'd troller builds can attain almost cosmic lvl power in this game, but by-and-by, NO I dont agree they're the best. Those specific builds would be fire/kins, fire/storms, fire/rads, ill/rad, And the specifics I gave are largely based on /secondaries that either do damage or increase damage via -resistance or +damage. Something like an earth/FF or an ice/emp would suck to play if you wanted solo speed. Remember Frost, this is a new player asking for beginning advice on playstyle differences between doms and trollers. Blanket statements like the 1 I quoted wont help that newb lvl from 1-50. |
He asked for advice on doms, which he received from a number of people (mine was plant or earth/fire)
He asked how doms compare to trollers, I answered they are different. Controllers built to purpose do a lot more aoe damage than doms (which isn't hard as doms kinda don't do much aoe do they?) and can also produce more st damage than everyone but /fire. If he is asking about /fiery doms (or high damage in particular) I highly doubt he is going to turn around and roll some bottom of the barrel earth/ff troller with the expectation it is going to fly through mobs.
I also explained they go about their business in very different ways. Doms are direct, trollers are lithe.
If controllers built with the intention of dealing damage deal said damage as well or better than most doms and they also have powerful buff/debuff abilities this means they are ultimately going to be more powerful than doms.
Now sure, IO's are going to make both AT's much better that goes without saying, but something like a fire/rad is still devastating on SO's, arguably more powerful than any SO'd dom combo.
The sad thing is that a lot of the fun aspects of playing a dom such as applying direct damage trollers also get to do. And very well. They just don't get to do it until the late game. But if you enjoy smashing things with seismic smash and fissure on an /earth dom, well trollers are better with those powers and do more damage with them. If you like throwing fire, well trollers get fireball, which is the epitome of fire casters imo and doms don't.
Also he speaks to the positive experiences he's had with FotM's in the past. Most FotM's either mature very quickly or reach much higher than average potential. Almost no doms mature quickly because of poorly ordered secondaries (/nrg being a major exception, but then it only deals st damage) and control sets themselves usually don't hit their stride until SO's. The other aspect is chasing them for their peak potential (ie high inf and time investment) and some doms certainly pay off very highly in that department. Perma dom is astounding as is the high recharge boosted attack chains in the assault sets. Not quite as astounding as what similar investment will get you in the troller department though. For the most part anyway.
All that said, if you read what I told him about the doms I have recommended I have said nothing but praise. Despite the revamp though, they are still an AT that takes more effort to get good bang out of them. That isn't for everyone. And I hate to say it, but if someone has previously gravitated toward FOTM builds a dom may well not be to his liking. I say try it out though and I recommended two powerful doms both of which mature about as quick as possible for the AT and both of which have some of the highest peak damage potential within the AT as well.
But he should know that a dom that can "lock down large groups and then lay waste to them" (or something of that effect that he said). Is also the same dom that pulls aggro like Me in a thread where Castle posts inaccurate information lol.
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Actually you did ask for education. You asked me to compare every single build in the game. I'm assuming you did that so you could draw relevant conclusions. I have compared a heck of a lot of them, but I'm not going to post the 50 page thread necessary to reach the answer that I already know.|
Originally Posted by Black_Strike
I did not ask for you to Educate me or anyone else. You made a loose claim, based on specific builds built to specific ends, and from that Stated that Controllers are the best AT in the game. Better than any other AT in the game. I continue to disagree with you.
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So I asked you to narrow it down in order for you to show that you have some initiative and actually want to learn rather than just being spoon fed.
It would appear that you'd rather just happily go on in ignorance. That's fine, I don't really care how you go about your life, just don't try to call me out on something unless you actually want to hear the answer.
Look at what ive commented on in both this and that thread.
I think we're in agreement for the most part.
With the only cavaet that trollers will have to wait till 32 (pets) 38 (FS if its /kin) and then epics to REALLY do the damage your talkin about.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Definitely. Most doms have to wait until 35-38 to unlock key attack powers too.|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Look at what ive commented on in both this and that thread.
I think we're in agreement for the most part. With the only cavaet that trollers will have to wait till 32 (pets) 38 (FS if its /kin) and then epics to REALLY do the damage your talkin about. |
/fire without blaze isn't that great
/psi without PSW
/thorny without ripper and barrage
/ice without slash and bib
/earth without fissure
/elec without thunderstrike
The only secondary that doesn't really care is /nrg (not that powerburst isn't a good attack, but nrg already has 3 solid ranged attacks and 2 melee attacks by 28).
Both AT's tend to mature kind of slow, but the main difference is that controllers have stronger base values on their controls and buff/debuff to assist those powers. So while doms tend to be mediocre at both control and damage until later game, trollers at least control well and do mediocre damage.
Domination sure is great though. The problem I've been having since the revamp with the two that I've tried leveling is that with the higher end burn I need domination for the endurance refill. If I could just pop it every 90 of 200 seconds the weaker controls would no longer be an issue. But I have to choose between doing more solid control or playing with minimal downtime. As the toon progresses though and gets endurance under control the use of domination shifts to more intended purposes, but ime that isn't until the late 20's at the earliest, often later. Control powers aren't very friendly on the blue bar and neither are the increased dpa assault powers.
If you are in to doms though they are really fun and they certainly don't feel weak.
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Specific statement vs blanket statement. See prior commentary. I have no argument with "Specific builds can outperform when built to it." But when a blanket statement is made as a rule, such as "X is better than Y," what that comes across as is "I can take any one of X as a direct replacement for Y and have it do a better job." |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Not every controller build is the most powerful build in the game, but the most powerful builds in the game are controller builds. This seems both clear and accurate to me.
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That, in and of itself, is not true. I don't want someone glancing through this, seeing this, and going "I dont' want to tank, I'll roll up a controller," play casually and wonder why they're going squish all the time, because it's "the wrong powersets minus a few billion INF market-value in IOs."
I'm also, quite honestly, not impressed with "With work and level 50/epics, I can replace XYZ." (For this discussion, that is. People that come up with the builds? Yeah, I appreciate what they've done, but I don't think it's realistic to use them to back a blanket statement or compare ATs. Most people arent' going to *have* those builds.) Do it at random levels within the game, and I'll give it more weight in the argument.
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By the way: Fulcrum Shift. |
And you're not guaranteed to have a /kin controller. Plus with the direct rebuttal - FS isn't a damage power, it's a buff/debuff - but I'll take the blame for that as, like I said, I could have worded that statement in a way to better reflect what I was saying.
Edit to add:
What this boils down to -
Frosty, there, is talking about end-game investment builds. When *I* am talking about it, I'm talking about the game others will be seeing - the 1-50 run. When I talk about doms, I'm going to talk about my Mind/Fire being able to decimate groups starting in the single digits. I'm going to talk about my 25-26 Plant/Thorn (leveled while doing this) who decided to take on Scrapyard's followers solo, kept them bottled up and ended up with something along the lines of a 100:1 kill ratio (having killed - well, hundreds of them.) Same group that'll chew up and spit out masterminds without flinching.
I don't *care* what an IO'd out build will do at 50, after all the content is gone. Show me what you can do with, for instance, that "godlike" Ill/whatever before he is, before PA can be perma, etc. and I'll be more impressed.
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I revert your Challenge back to you. Give me one of your "SUPER CONTROLLER" Builds. I will Beat it with other AT's. It don't have to happen out here in the open, PM me. And don't think that I want your Builds, I Play Villains Exclusively. I could really care less what Controllers can do.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Actually you did ask for education. You asked me to compare every single build in the game. I'm assuming you did that so you could draw relevant conclusions. I have compared a heck of a lot of them, but I'm not going to post the 50 page thread necessary to reach the answer that I already know.
So I asked you to narrow it down in order for you to show that you have some initiative and actually want to learn rather than just being spoon fed. It would appear that you'd rather just happily go on in ignorance. That's fine, I don't really care how you go about your life, just don't try to call me out on something unless you actually want to hear the answer. |
[Edit] And as to your statement about my Ignorance;
1 I have 12 level 50 Villains,
2 I have researched and IO'd all of them to max proficiency for their intended purpose.
3 I have nothing to prove to you, you however have still failed to prove your statement.
4 I was Spoon-Fed as a Baby. I deffininately don't need it from you. I'm most likely old enough to be your Dad.
5 The Forum Join Date can be misleading. I played this game 2 years before I became active on the Forums.
You seem to be an Elitist Clown, like what I used to put up with when I played WOW. You think you know it all, and everyone who disagrees with you is IGNORANT, or a NOOB.
Get over it.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
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I have no qualms about sharing builds as I'm sure most will attest to. Being adept in Mid's is not something I feel is worth lording over people. I also strongly believe in personal growth (in all aspects of life). If someone wants me to share my knowledge with them I am more than happy to, but I can tell the difference between genuine interest and when someone is simply being patronizing.|
Originally Posted by Black_Strike
I revert your Challenge back to you. Give me one of your "SUPER CONTROLLER" Builds. I will Beat it with other AT's. It don't have to happen out here in the open, PM me. And don't think that I want your Builds, I Play Villains Exclusively. I could really care less what Controllers can do.
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Is there any particular reason I should take time out my life to prove something to you that I already know when you have no intention of using that knowledge for personal improvement? It really sounds like a waste of time to me because your opinion is meaningless to me and you have just revealed that you will never use the knowledge as you are exclusively Villain AT's and have zero interest in the controller AT.
At this point I'm curious as to why you would even enter into a discussion that you admittedly know nothing about 50% of. This means that any information I send you will need a full written explanation of why it is superior which means even more of my time spent on something you will not take any useful information away from. How is that any different than me just repeatedly hitting my head against the wall? It would be about as beneficial from what I can tell.
This really should have stopped with me stating that I have no interest in educating people that don't want to learn. You just publicly stated you have no interest in expanding your knowledge base. Seriously why is this conversation even happening?
Note: controller controls are not that much different than dominators, from a broader perspective.
Start:
Dominator dominate: 3 mag, 17.88 held, 36.15 damage
Controller dominate: 3 mag, 22.35 held, 30.59 damage
controllers have the edge.
'critical' control controller dominate: 3+1 mag, 22.35+16.75 held.
'Domination' control using 'dominate:' 3+3 mag, 17.88+26.82 held
dominators have the edge.
The trick, though, is player skill. A good dominator can count on domination, timing stuff well. A controller doesn't know when the next critical hold is coming, the dominator can CHOOSE when it wll arrive.
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I don't believe this involves skill in the manner that you mean it. If domination was short duration with short recharge that you could tap into for brief periods (think control version of MoG) it would be skill based.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
The trick, though, is player skill. A good dominator can count on domination, timing stuff well. A controller doesn't know when the next critical hold is coming, the dominator can CHOOSE when it wll arrive.
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As it stands now you can do what you suggest, but it means sitting on domination until that crucial point. That is probably fine, it just means you are operating at less efficiency than you could be the rest of the time. And no amount of player skill is going to make domination be up for the next crucial moment if it occurs after the 90 seconds but before the 200 second recharge.
Like a lot of dom players it makes more sense to just remove that entire aspect from the equation and build for perma dom. I don't think anyone will ever say that perma dom isn't extremely powerful. Whether it is more powerful than a similar controller with hasten+75% global rech is debatable; depends on specific pairings.
*It looks like you are referencing the old numbers for doms. New numbers are 52.8 base damage for powers like dominate.
I'm fairly new to the end content of this game. Still haven't done half as much as you all.
But I read the forums regularly. And I think what matters are things like Farming and AV/GM solo'ing to most people, as the rarest things in the game are best attainble in these events (badge hunting excluded). As I've read the best at doing either of these are Troller builds Fire/Kin and Ill/Rad respectively for various reasons in their builds. (FS, or perma PA and Rad Inf). Though I've heard /poison MM's might take the AV/GM soloing crown?
For Dom vs Troller arguments, containment is key here. It pretty much doubles troller damage constantly on targets afflicted by mezs, and closes the gap at the base damage modifier (According to Paragon Wiki, Trollers have a base damage mod at lvl.50 of .55/.55, and Dominators have 1.05/.95, melee/range respectively), on top of doing your 'critical mag' for mezs. Domination will do your constant double mag and heal your endurance but you're stuck with you 1.05/.95 damage mod (vs 1.1/1.1 if you double .55 of trollers) and the same damage cap as Troller. (+300% damage, or 400%cap)
As for Dom curiosity, I'm very skeptical of making a Dom until I see Electric Control released for them. If it boasts either of the better AoE damage and/or AoE Holds for Dom/Troller Primaries, I think it will end up pairing the best with /Fire and be a beast for Dom's, and be a beast for /Kin Trollers.
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If you're looking for an 'endgame' character, dominators have a niche they can fill: AV control. My Mind/ dom can hold through the annoying triangles, something that is quite useful for later sf's and unique to doms. (Perhaps unique to Mind/ doms?) Mind you, this is a very different niche than the GM soloing/farming, but it's darned handy if you do those things much.|
Originally Posted by Kenshinhan
I'm fairly new to the end content of this game. Still haven't done half as much as you all.
But I read the forums regularly. And I think what matters are things like Farming and AV/GM solo'ing to most people, as the rarest things in the game are best attainble in these events (badge hunting excluded). As I've read the best at doing either of these are Troller builds Fire/Kin and Ill/Rad respectively for various reasons in their builds. (FS, or perma PA and Rad Inf). Though I've heard /poison MM's might take the AV/GM soloing crown? For Dom vs Troller arguments, containment is key here. It pretty much doubles troller damage constantly on targets afflicted by mezs, and closes the gap at the base damage modifier (According to Paragon Wiki, Trollers have a base damage mod at lvl.50 of .55/.55, and Dominators have 1.05/.95, melee/range respectively), on top of doing your 'critical mag' for mezs. Domination will do your constant double mag and heal your endurance but you're stuck with you 1.05/.95 damage mod (vs 1.1/1.1 if you double .55 of trollers) and the same damage cap as Troller. (+300% damage, or 400%cap) As for Dom curiosity, I'm very skeptical of making a Dom until I see Electric Control released for them. If it boasts either of the better AoE damage and/or AoE Holds for Dom/Troller Primaries, I think it will end up pairing the best with /Fire and be a beast for Dom's, and be a beast for /Kin Trollers. |
Strangely enough while controllers, who lack a damage powerset, do better damage than doms at high end, dominators beat controllers at control at high end. Irony.
So Ive been rolling a Plant/Earth and a Mind/Fire. I love them both. Earth Assault plays well as a Point Blank set and Mud pots help. Plant is a good combo for it.
Im in love with a Mind/Fire for a more Single damage play style. FE really makes the set.
My concern is this...all I hear is permadom permadom permadom. Im ready to invest in both these builds pretty heavily to achieve perma. My concern is a future domination nerf. Any talk or rumors about this? I havent seen much chatter about a nerf but after playing doms more often, they are obviously overpowered in team play. Domination is always there for my lvl 30 and 44. Permadom or close to it seems unfair compared to other builds bonuses. Sure, containment boosts certain builds..but not all controller sets take advantage of this. Domination and near perma completely overpowers all doms, regardless of the powersets you choose. Id like some good educated input on possible nerfing before I spend my hard earned infamy to set a dom in an already ridiculous redside market.
On another topic (stupid question catagory) Do you have to create a toon in Preatoria in order to convert a toon to one side or another? Or can my uber set 50s transfer just as easily? ANd what about accolades? If my accoladed uber50 vil turns sides, can he obtain blueside accolades. Im talking about completely converting. ANd if this can be done...what if hes got uber infamy and 10 IOs on his person...will that make it over?
I know random questions are popping in my head as I type...but these are good questions that need answers
Things like fire/rad, ill/rad, fire/kin, plant/kin, fire/storm, earth/storm, ill/cold and others are simply disturbingly powerful if built to the purpose.
And no I don't mean something as niche as a fire/kin farming s/l mobs only. People that think that combo is limited to doing that have either never played it or don't know how to play it.
Trollers do have some deep lows as well, but you'd no more pick something like an ice/ff troller for the purpose of dealing damage than you'd pick a /nrg dom for the purpose of dealing aoe damage. That is implied and really shouldn't need to be stated, but I'm doing it because it probably does need to be stated or someone will come along and pick that nit.
edit: see what I mean?
Why can they be more powerful than dominators? because buff/debuff sets are > assault sets at determining peak power and because trollers have exceptionally potent epic powersets available to them. It results in a very different playstyle, which I already pointed out though.
[Edit] Back it up with the math for every AT in the Game, with every possible Powerset Combo, and all Possible IO builds. Then I will concede your point.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow