Quote:
Did you gain a level? Your SOs get weaker each time you level until they expire.
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Originally Posted by Hube02
Has anyone noticed anything different since the release of 17.
Here's a for instance. I have a Claws/SR scrapper with Practiced Brawler currently at level 31. I have it slotted with 2 recharge reduction enhancements. I've been keeping pretty close watch on the recharge speed is on this power. Before 17, with 2 SO enhancements I had the recharge speed on this down to almost 1:30. Now, after the new issue the recharge is back up to 1:57. Is this a bug? Has something been nerfed? |
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Quote:
This is the way I understand it after reading the ED rules:|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Did you gain a level? Your SOs get weaker each time you level until they expire.
|
The base recharge on Practiced Brawler is 3min 20sec. That is 200 seconds.
Each SO enhancement gives a 35% bonus to recharge. Since 2 = 70% this
may be effected by ED, the formula from the wiki is
70 + (0.9 × (E - 70)) , plugging in my 70% here means there is no penalty: 70+(0.9x(70-70)) = 70+(0.9x(0)) = 70+(0) = 70
I also have quickness. Quickness is supposed to provide a 20% reduction in recharge speed. This gives me a total of 90% reduction. The way I calculate it this means that this power should only take 20 seconds to recharge and yet it is at almost 2 minutes.
Even if you applied the 20% for quickness after the effect of the enhancements the recharge would be 48 seconds and not 1min 57 seconds.
SO enhancements decreasing in effectiveness as your level increases has nothing to do with ED. ED only affects having multiples of the same type of enhancement in the same power, kicking in at about 3 SO's worth. Individual non-IO enhancements have always lost effectiveness as you outgrow them for as long as the game has existed.
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um. Wrong. Really, Really, Wrong. |
Originally Posted by Hube02
This is the way I understand it after reading the ED rules:
The base recharge on Practiced Brawler is 3min 20sec. That is 200 seconds. Each SO enhancement gives a 35% bonus to recharge. Since 2 = 70% this may be effected by ED, the formula from the wiki is 70 + (0.9 × (E - 70)) , plugging in my 70% here means there is no penalty: 70+(0.9x(70-70)) = 70+(0.9x(0)) = 70+(0) = 70 I also have quickness. Quickness is supposed to provide a 20% reduction in recharge speed. This gives me a total of 90% reduction. The way I calculate it this means that this power should only take 20 seconds to recharge and yet it is at almost 2 minutes. Even if you applied the 20% for quickness after the effect of the enhancements the recharge would be 48 seconds and not 1min 57 seconds. |
The numbers for what you can enhance change depending on what type of enhancement you are using, and what type of power you are enhancing.
In the case of Recharge enhancements you can enhance about 50% of the power. So, if you have a power that lasts for 1 minute, and you push the recharge rate into ED (90% to 95%), you will have a recharge time of about 32-35 seconds.
So, for a three minute and twenty second power, capping the Power Into ED will give you a recharge rate on the far side of 1 minute 40 seconds (3 minutes 20 seconds divided by two).
The 20% base recharge rate also suffers from a perception issue.
a 100% recharge rate will basically half the amount of time that it takes each of your powers to do something. So, if you have a power that takes 1 minute to recharge, and you have a 100% recharge rate, your power will come up in 30 seconds exactly, no other modifiers present. Each % of power would be worth about .3 seconds. (30 seconds / 100%).
A 50% recharge rate modifier would bring the power back up in 45 seconds, no other modifiers present. (50% * .3 = 15 seconds)
A 25% recharge rate modifier would bring the power back up in 53.5 seconds, no other modifiers present. (25% * .3 = 7.5 seconds)
So, a 20% recharge modifier would be worth (20% * .3), or around 6 seconds. So a 20% recharge rate modifier would only bring the power back up in 54 seconds.
***
On your practiced brawler, this means that you would need to take 50% of 3minutes 20 seconds, which is 1 minute 40 seconds.
That's 100 seconds. 100 seconds / 100% is 1. So each percentage is worth 1 second.
So a 20% recharge bonus is only going to drop your recharge rate by 20 seconds.
So, with practiced brawler fully slotted into ED, and Quickness, you'll still only be pushing 1minute 30seconds on average recharge time.
Quote:
Recharge Formula|
Originally Posted by Hube02
I also have quickness. Quickness is supposed to provide a 20% reduction in recharge speed. This gives me a total of 90% reduction. The way I calculate it this means that this power should only take 20 seconds to recharge and yet it is at almost 2 minutes.
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RechargeTime = BaseRechargeTime / ( 100% + Buffs - Debuffs )]
RechargeTime= 200/(1+.7 (enhancements) + .2 (quickness)) = 105 sec or 1 min, 45 sec
That's assuming your SOs are actually both level 32 atm (+1 to your level 31). According to my math, your SOs look more like they're -2 or -3 to your level
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Quote:
Other people have already posted where you went wrong here.|
Originally Posted by Hube02
This gives me a total of 90% reduction. The way I calculate it this means that this power should only take 20 seconds to recharge and yet it is at almost 2 minutes.
|
However, shouldn't common sense have told you that something was amiss in your calculations? 100% reduction would = zero recharge time. What if you had Hasten for 160% reduction?
FYI, endurance reduction works the same way. 100% reduction means your endurance cost is reduced by HALF, not 100%.
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Quote:
Any enhancement which works be REDUCING works on the New Value=Original Value/(1.00+%), to the given cap. This basically is Recharge, Interrupt, and Endurance Reduction. Mez resists also work this way, as I recall.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Other people have already posted where you went wrong here.
However, shouldn't common sense have told you that something was amiss in your calculations? 100% reduction would = zero recharge time. What if you had Hasten for 160% reduction? FYI, endurance reduction works the same way. 100% reduction means your endurance cost is reduced by HALF, not 100%. |
For recharge, it's 400% cap, resulting in a minimum recharge time of 1/5 (1+4.00) the original value.
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Yup, I came jsut now to post that my math was wrong, but I still think there is a bug.
To my surprise, you divide reductions and not multiply.
So if you have a 70% reduction to a recharge rate that has a base of 200 seconds
200 / 1.7 = ~117 = 1 minute 57 seconds.
This is what I am seeing so the enhancements are being applied correctly.
However, I should also be getting a 20% reduction for "Quickness". I'm not sure where this is supposed to be applied, but it seems that it is not. Since I was seeing ~90 seconds pre 17 then it would appear that the 20% was applied before the 70% (or after, doesn't matter) resulting in:
200 / 1.2 / 1.7 = ~98 = 1 minute 38 seconds. (This is very close to what I was seeing pre 17) So rather than a nerf it appears like another bug.
Also, as far as out leveling the enhancements, the character is level 31 and both SO's are 30++. The value of reduction actually shown for the enhancements is 35%. So this is not an issue of... duh. I forgot to get new enhancements.
My math seems to agree with je_saist's now.
Quote:
Again, indicating that the bonus for Quickness is not being applied.
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
So, with practiced brawler fully slotted into ED, and Quickness, you'll still only be pushing 1minute 30seconds on average recharge time.
|
Quote:
This is right.|
Originally Posted by Hube02
So if you have a 70% reduction to a recharge rate that has a base of 200 seconds
200 / 1.7 = ~117 = 1 minute 57 seconds. This is what I am seeing so the enhancements are being applied correctly. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hube02
However, I should also be getting a 20% reduction for "Quickness". I'm not sure where this is supposed to be applied, but it seems that it is not. Since I was seeing ~90 seconds pre 17 then it would appear that the 20% was applied before the 70% (or after, doesn't matter) resulting in:
200 / 1.2 / 1.7 = ~98 = 1 minute 38 seconds. (This is very close to what I was seeing pre 17) So rather than a nerf it appears like another bug. ... Again, indicating that the bonus for Quickness is not being applied. |
200/(1+0.2+0.7) = 200/1.9 = ~105 = 1 minute 45 seconds.
Remember that the enhancement screen numbers only taken enhancements into account; set bonuses and powers are not included.
Quote:
this is the main thing to remember, not everything is taken into account when looking at powers on the enhancement screen. for some things, I find I have to test it the old fashioned way - with a stop watch or clock with a second hand |
Originally Posted by Edana
Remember that the enhancement screen numbers only taken enhancements into account; set bonuses and powers are not included. |
Quote:
Either way, quickness is not being applied.|
Originally Posted by Edana
This is right.
This is not. 200/(1+0.2+0.7) = 200/1.9 = ~105 = 1 minute 45 seconds. Remember that the enhancement screen numbers only taken enhancements into account; set bonuses and powers are not included. |
And the actual recharge time is 1min 57sec as measured with a stopwatch. So the reduction is actually not being applied (even if it the actual time should not be displayed anywhere). Even without a stopwatch at 1:45 there would be 15 seconds where the power was doubled (appearing stacked in my buffs area) and not the 3 seconds that I am currently seeing. (I have practiced brawler set on auto)
Quote:
Keep in mind as mentioned above, though, the exact bonus granted by SOs varies depending on relative level. The .7 used in these formulas assumes that you are utilizing SOs at least one level higher than you currently are. Assuming you're using purchased ones, though, you probably have level 30s, and as you out-level your SOs, you'll find they drop in effectiveness rather quickly. That is likely the result of your perception that Quickness isn't working. Also, as Kendo mentioned, you won't see the bonus from Quickness (or IOs, or buffs, or anything other than Enhancements) on your power's real numbers screen.
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Originally Posted by Hube02
Either way, quickness is not being applied.
And the actual recharge time is 1min 57sec as measured with a stopwatch. So the reduction is actually not being applied (even if it the actual time should not be displayed anywhere). Even without a stopwatch at 1:45 there would be 15 seconds where the power was doubled (appearing stacked in my buffs area) and not the 3 seconds that I am currently seeing. (I have practiced brawler set on auto) |
Hube: can you get in the game and open the Combat Attributes window? Please *confirm* that the Quickness recharge bonus is appearing there. If it's not, there's indeed a problem.
My math supports your idea that enhancements are being applied, but the Quickness bonus is not. If you are not currently using the second build for your character, can you switch to it and create a build with both Quickness and Hasten? If the Quickness bonus is not applied but Hasten is, you'd have a problem with Quickness. If neither is, there's something more fundamentally broken with recharge buffs in your character. You could also ask for someone to give you Speed Boost or another recharge buff and see if that applies.
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Hube, based on your numbers, you are using 2 -2 SOs (26.66% * 2 + 20% = 73.3%) for (200/(1+.733) = 115.4) 1 minute 55 second recharge.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancem...n_Enhancements : look at schedule A
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Quote:
And considering the 2 second activation time before the power actually starts recharging, we're spot on!
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Originally Posted by Draggynn
Hube, based on your numbers, you are using 2 -2 SOs (26.66% * 2 + 20% = 73.3%) for (200/(1+.733) = 115.4) 1 minute 55 second recharge.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancem...n_Enhancements : look at schedule A |
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A little unclear on what's being said here. Is it not recharging in actual game time at the rate it should with Quickness, or is the recharge listed in the power information just not showing the Quickness bonus? As far as I know, if I put 70% recharge into a power, the detailed power description will show a projected recharge time for that 70% but that display does not include outside buffs such as Hasten, Quickness, and global recharge bonuses. When such bonuses are present, the power recharges even faster than that display indicates (which is as it should be).
When you say something like "this is what I am seeing," it doesn't tell me whether you're seeing it on a stopwatch you're holding while in-game, or on the detailed power info tab, or in the Combat Monitor window, or in Mids, or what.
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Might be a shadow nerf in Bloody Bay, it seems to me that the cycle time for the regeneration of turrets on the bases where you turn in salvage for shards has decreased. I thought before it was around 10 minutes but now it seems to be around 6 minutes.
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Just to make sure - you know the ten minute timer is constantly going - it does not start upon destruction of the turret?
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Originally Posted by WoefulKnight
Might be a shadow nerf in Bloody Bay, it seems to me that the cycle time for the regeneration of turrets on the bases where you turn in salvage for shards has decreased. I thought before it was around 10 minutes but now it seems to be around 6 minutes.
|
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Quote:
No, you're wrong. Pay attention: "the character is level 31 and both SO's are 30++." That's +1 SOs, not -2. 70% enhancement, plus 20% from Quickness.|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
Hube, based on your numbers, you are using 2 -2 SOs (26.66% * 2 + 20% = 73.3%) for (200/(1+.733) = 115.4) 1 minute 55 second recharge.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancem...n_Enhancements : look at schedule A |
Now, it COULD be that the ++ portion of enhancements is being ignored, but that's still a bug.
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Quote:
Recanted, found what you were quoting Leandro, burried at the end of one of his posts.|
Originally Posted by Leandro
No, you're wrong. Pay attention: "the character is level 31 and both SO's are 30++." That's +1 SOs, not -2. 70% enhancement, plus 20% from Quickness.
|
However, I'm skeptical of there being a bug that large, since his numbers agree so well with -2 SOs, but I look forward to the problem being solved if that's the issue.
Edit: Just tested with two 50++ SOs in ice slick at lvl 50 and ice slick recharged in just under 55 seconds after clicking (90/(1+.367*2)+3.1) = 54.9 seconds as opposed to the 57 seconds (90/(1+.33*2)+3.1) = 57.1 seconds it would have taken if the ++s were being ignored. So if the game is misreading the ++ on enhancements it isn't a universal problem.
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Has anyone noticed anything different since the release of 17.
Here's a for instance. I have a Claws/SR scrapper with Practiced Brawler currently at level 31. I have it slotted with 2 recharge reduction enhancements. I've been keeping pretty close watch on the recharge speed is on this power. Before 17, with 2 SO enhancements I had the recharge speed on this down to almost 1:30. Now, after the new issue the recharge is back up to 1:57. Is this a bug? Has something been nerfed?