Both have loads of survivability once you're in the mid-20s (while you're a Blood Widow you're very squishy), but the Night Widow brings vastly superior damage, and the Fort brings soft and hard controls to support a team. Both bring team buffs, naturally.
Personally, I'd go Night Widow since I make good damage dealing a priority and I prefer to solo most of the time. If you're very team focused, go Fort.
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I agree with Daemodand, the night widow is a beast. I have dual builds on my widow and I don't even touch the fort 95% of the time. Single target damage is great and it's a very survivable combination.
Forts are ok, and are probably more survivable due to their controls. Forts also have a superior AE attack in psy wail, but it' on a long recharge (6 minutes I think). But when I play mine I feel like I'm running barefoot on a sandy beach, where with the night widow I'm wearing track shoes and rocketing down the 100 meter stretch. My only real gripe with NWs is they can go through end pretty fast if not careful.
Both are very effective, they just have different methods of doing business.
NWs are pumped-up Stalkers who also have the mild side effect of being able to give everyone on their team 30% positional Defense. Fortunatas are Dominators with claws or psychic blasts (or both).
In all honesty it is impossible to use other peoples opinions on helping you decide which path to go. The Night Widow and Fortunata characters are so much fun and so awesome that it really doesn't matter which route you go, you will be equally effective.
I made a Fortunata and a Night Widow and I love them both the same. A lot of people use the dual build function since you can have one of each, but I did not want to do that, I wanted to experience each character the entire game as either a Night Widow or a Fortunata. I ended up getting my Fortunata to 50 before my Night Widow, but only because I stopped playing my Night Widow once she made 34 in anticipation of Going Rogue.
Night Widow's are more like Scrappers in my opinion than Stalkers and Fortunata's are more like Blaster's damage-wise mixed with the controls of a Controller rather than Dominator.
I do not think one is more survivable than the other because there are highs and lows to each character. You can make Mind Link perma a lot easier on a Night Widow than a Fortunata, but you have controls on a Fortunata that you do not have on a Night Widow. My advice to you would be to go with one and play it until you think you have the hang of it, then use your 2nd build and play the other and then make a choice on which one you like more.
Or you could do like me and just make one of each and play them both.
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Just to clarify, to get (close) to 30% you need Mind Link up, the VEAT-specific maneuvers, and the power pool maneuvers.|
Originally Posted by Vermain
NWs are pumped-up Stalkers who also have the mild side effect of being able to give everyone on their team 30% positional Defense. Fortunatas are Dominators with claws or psychic blasts (or both).
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I would just do dual builds with SOs until you decide which you like better, honestly.
I think the most unique thing you could do, however, is build a Fort like a scrapper/stalker. Grab enough claw attacks for a full attack chain and the defensive powers. Then grab confuse or dominate or psychic wail for flavor. You give up a couple melee attacks, Elude, and Mental Training... but you get a setup no other AT can do.
If you did pure Fort, it plays a TON like a Mind/Psy dom...
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Quote:
I don't think NWs are pumped-up stalkers, with accolades and a few IO enhancements you can max a stalker's hit points and the best I've been able to get on my widow (with all of the hit point accolades) is 1622. So they are about even there. On top of that stalkers will outdamage a widow, with less resisted damage types offered, assasin's strikes and the ability to crit up to 30% of the time while in teams and while not hidden. Heck, just with the 3 spiderling pets they can achieve a 19% out-of-hide crit rate. And they have placate for controlled crits as well.|
Originally Posted by Vermain
NWs are pumped-up Stalkers who also have the mild side effect of being able to give everyone on their team 30% positional Defense. Fortunatas are Dominators with claws or psychic blasts (or both).
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Also mask presence is nowhere near as good as a stalker's hide.
"NWs are pumped-up wannabe claws Stalkers" might be more accurate =).
Quote:
I'd contest this, because I very clearly remember DPS tests done which put NWs nearly at the top for single target damage, with some things like saturated Fire/SD Scrappers beating them out. Stalkers win the burst damage battle without contention, but NWs will win for long-term DPS.|
Originally Posted by Person34
So they are about even there. On top of that stalkers will outdamage a widow,
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As for HP, the Widow max is 2.4k, while the Stalker max is 1.6k, so... 1622 is actually better than what a Stalker could get. I never really focus on HP for either Stalker or NW builds, because you should have a solid team supporting you, which removes the need for squeezing every last drop of survivability you can get out of IOs. Soloing doesn't present a problem, in this case, since soft-cap Defense is more than enough for most situations.
Stalkers do have better hide, I guess, but they also don't give their entire party 30% Defense. All you need is Hasten, Maneuvers, TT: Maneuvers, Mind Link and Mental Training (all powers you should be taking anyways, with the possible exception of vanilla Maneuvers), three Defense/Recharge IOs to slot in, and you're good to go. This also puts you at the soft cap, which means you can spend your slots on more important bonuses like damage, accuracy or recharge.
Not to disparage Stalkers, since they're cool dudes, but Night Widows have it comparatively better in a whole slew of categories.
Quote:
Yes, stalkers cap at about 1.6k. And VEATS cap at 2.4, but you aren't going to find any widows pushing much more than the stalker's cap which was my point. You'll never, ever see a 2400 hp widow running around, and most of the builds posted are 1450-1500 hitpoints w/ accolades. So yes, again stalkers and widows realistically have similiar hit points.|
Originally Posted by Vermain
I'd contest this, because I very clearly remember DPS tests done which put NWs nearly at the top for single target damage, with some things like saturated Fire/SD Scrappers beating them out. Stalkers win the burst damage battle without contention, but NWs will win for long-term DPS.
As for HP, the Widow max is 2.4k, while the Stalker max is 1.6k, so... 1622 is actually better than what a Stalker could get. I never really focus on HP for either Stalker or NW builds, because you should have a solid team supporting you, which removes the need for squeezing every last drop of survivability you can get out of IOs. Soloing doesn't present a problem, in this case, since soft-cap Defense is more than enough for most situations. Stalkers do have better hide, I guess, but they also don't give their entire party 30% Defense. All you need is Hasten, Maneuvers, TT: Maneuvers, Mind Link and Mental Training (all powers you should be taking anyways, with the possible exception of vanilla Maneuvers), three Defense/Recharge IOs to slot in, and you're good to go. This also puts you at the soft cap, which means you can spend your slots on more important bonuses like damage, accuracy or recharge. Not to disparage Stalkers, since they're cool dudes, but Night Widows have it comparatively better in a whole slew of categories. |
I think you are more on track with NWs being more team friendly, which is perfectly acceptable. And while I will agree with the idea of a NW blowing an elec or spines stalker out of the water in the single target dps department I would be interested in seeing how a DM/SR stalker stacks up. They have similiar damage single target attacks and positional defenses with a recharge buff and scaling resists, just like widows. The main difference is the stalker can have 100% DDR and a self heal (which to me blows your "but Night Widows have it comparatively better in a whole slew of categories" idea clear out of the water.. but we are after all comparing one specific AT to another that has multiple options for attacks and defenses).
Anyway I just thought the "NWs are pumped-up Stalkers" was a generalization which is why I responded in the first place. Thematically they are in opposition: one's the team-friendly killer, the other the lone assassin. Both are damage dealers. But don't assume that a NW > stalker in the damage dept, either burst or sustained, as I don't see how it's possible. But without hard numbers it's tough to really know.
Ah well. Widows and stalkers both rule, regards of who can do what.
Quote:
Every DPS number I've seen for single target NW damage posted on these forums or otherwise puts them in the 200+ category, which is better than a lot of Brute and Scrapper sets. The mega DPS results thread in the Scrapper forums puts them at 220 DPS, which is just under some of the top performers. Certain Scrapper and Brute builds can get higher than what's displayed, although it requires near-perfect conditions to accomplish. The dude who posts is right in that it swallows endurance like a vacuum, although it's sustainable with a mildly altered chain.
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Originally Posted by Person34
But don't assume that a NW > stalker in the damage dept, either burst or sustained, as I don't see how it's possible. But without hard numbers it's tough to really know.
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Both are awesome, but NW is better for soloing, Forts better for teaming.
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Quote:
I'd say they're close to even on both accounts. NWs bring that 30% group Defense and great damage, while Fortunatas bring great damage and excellent single-target controls. (Scramble Thoughts can one-shot daze bosses, and Dominate is one of your best attacks in addition to being great control.) NWs have an advantage solo when they're soft capped, which is admittedly easier to do than on a Fortunata.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Both are awesome, but NW is better for soloing, Forts better for teaming.
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Quote:
So go down a Rikti Pylon and post your time. Generate hard numbers. Then see if any NW can beat your time. That will cause stalkers to get pissed and they'll show up to beat the NW time. Give it a week or two and we'll know.
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Originally Posted by Person34
Anyway I just thought the "NWs are pumped-up Stalkers" was a generalization which is why I responded in the first place. Thematically they are in opposition: one's the team-friendly killer, the other the lone assassin. Both are damage dealers. But don't assume that a NW > stalker in the damage dept, either burst or sustained, as I don't see how it's possible. But without hard numbers it's tough to really know.
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I wouldn't say it is easier to soft cap a Night Widow than it is a Fortunata. They are both equally easy to soft cap. If you are referring to using Mind Link only as the way of soft capping then you would be correct due to the +rech they get. Otherwise they are on equal ground when it comes to soft capping their defense.|
Originally Posted by Vermain
I'd say they're close to even on both accounts. NWs bring that 30% group Defense and great damage, while Fortunatas bring great damage and excellent single-target controls. (Scramble Thoughts can one-shot daze bosses, and Dominate is one of your best attacks in addition to being great control.) NWs have an advantage solo when they're soft capped, which is admittedly easier to do than on a Fortunata.
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I also don't think one is better than the other in solo or team play. I can't speak much on solo play because I refuse to solo, but as far as teaming is concerned, both my NW and F bring the same benefits to the table with I team so there is no difference.
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Quote:
It would have to be a Claws/Super Reflexes Stalker, of course, that being the closest equivalent for power sets to the Night Widow. No sense comparing other Stalker combos since they would be too different.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
So go down a Rikti Pylon and post your time. Generate hard numbers. Then see if any NW can beat your time. That will cause stalkers to get pissed and they'll show up to beat the NW time. Give it a week or two and we'll know.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novella
I wouldn't say it is easier to soft cap a Night Widow than it is a Fortunata. They are both equally easy to soft cap. If you are referring to using Mind Link only as the way of soft capping then you would be correct due to the +rech they get. Otherwise they are on equal ground when it comes to soft capping their defense.
Yeah, NWs are easier to softcap given the recharge on their Mind Link. Quote:
Originally Posted by Novella
I also don't think one is better than the other in solo or team play. I can't speak much on solo play because I refuse to solo, but as far as teaming is concerned, both my NW and F bring the same benefits to the table with I team so there is no difference.
While it is a very close call and for the most part they both bring the same stuff to the table, I give Forts the nod for teaming for several reasons:
Psy damage is rarely resisted. This makes Forts better for teams on all kinds of content, but most notably against any hard target with Unstoppable, (Cimeroran EBs, Statesman, BaBs, the Honoree).
Being able to nuke spawns.
The control that a Fortunata brings, even when just doing ST DPS.
The advantage of ranged damage.
NWs are better for solo because that stuff matters less, it's easier to softcap and you basically play more like a Scrapper because you just go wild and cut face. Solo you can play on your terms.
Edit: goddamnit, it's breaking the quote and refuses to fix for some reason. Ugh, whatever.
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Quote:
If that were the case then the NW would have the victory by a landslide as their attacks do about 2x's the base damage of a claw stalkers.|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
It would have to be a Claws/Super Reflexes Stalker, of course, that being the closest equivalent for power sets to the Night Widow. No sense comparing other Stalker combos since they would be too different.
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For example, base slash damage on a claw stalkers at lvl 50 is 73.4, where is it 152.6 on a NW. Heck, NWs get an attack at lvl -2- (strike) that outdamages everything a claw stalker has access to except eviscerate and their assassins strike. Again, that's a lvl 2 attack...
That's why I suggested DM on the stalker as the attacks are more comparable damage-wise. But in that example the stalker has a clear advantage as its "lunge" equivlent attack is also a self heal.
Would be nice if stalkers did more parses. In fact, trying to recall a stalker ever even attempting the pylon challenge...
If you have the cash, go with NW, you will not regret it one bit. I have dual build IO'ed NW & Fort' and the NW is literally insane. The attack chain from a ST point of view is really nasty, I have a similar NW build to someone who made an example one in a "NW Guide". I can pretty much contend with the majority of the hardest AV/Hero foes in the game.
Of course on teaming, fighting average mobs the ST isn't really an enthusiastic choice but you will actually destroy most AV's/Heroes. You can't really judge them on team-effective powers since they both generate the same +Team buffs, but the bottom line is AoE - Fort/ ST - NW.
EDIT: I should point out you do have the ability to go for both.
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Quote:
True if you factor in Mind Link they are easier to cap, but I have my Night Widow and Fortunata's capped to melee and ranged without the use of Mind Link. Mind Link is overlapping on my Night Widow and only down for 5 seconds on my Fortunata, but that is only in cases when I want to actually use Mind Link, e.g. teaming.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Yeah, NWs are easier to softcap given the recharge on their Mind Link.
While it is a very close call and for the most part they both bring the same stuff to the table, I give Forts the nod for teaming for several reasons: Psy damage is rarely resisted. This makes Forts better for teams on all kinds of content, but most notably against any hard target with Unstoppable, (Cimeroran EBs, Statesman, BaBs, the Honoree). Being able to nuke spawns. The control that a Fortunata brings, even when just doing ST DPS. The advantage of ranged damage. NWs are better for solo because that stuff matters less, it's easier to softcap and you basically play more like a Scrapper because you just go wild and cut face. Solo you can play on your terms. Edit: goddamnit, it's breaking the quote and refuses to fix for some reason. Ugh, whatever. |
Being able to nuke spawns is a good thing, but not something I would put the Fortunata's ahead based on. A Night Widow can dish out just as much area of effect damage using Dart Burst, Psychic Scream, and opening with Spin while hidden for numerous criticals.
Psy damage is less resisted, but utterly useless against some enemy groups. While it is handy against enemies like Statesman, Honoree, Back Alley Brawler, etc, there are just as many cases when psionic damage is less effect, e.g. Rikti Drones, Freakshow, all robots, etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novella
True if you factor in Mind Link they are easier to cap, but I have my Night Widow and Fortunata's capped to melee and ranged without the use of Mind Link. Mind Link is overlapping on my Night Widow and only down for 5 seconds on my Fortunata, but that is only in cases when I want to actually use Mind Link, e.g. teaming.
Being able to nuke spawns is a good thing, but not something I would put the Fortunata's ahead based on. A Night Widow can dish out just as much area of effect damage using Dart Burst, Psychic Scream, and opening with Spin while hidden for numerous criticals.
Psy damage is less resisted, but utterly useless against some enemy groups. While it is handy against enemies like Statesman, Honoree, Back Alley Brawler, etc, there are just as many cases when psionic damage is less effect, e.g. Rikti Drones, Freakshow, all robots, etc.
*shrug* for nuking spawns, I'd much rather use one fast animating PBAoE that also has a mez component than Spin which has a much smaller radius, Dart Burst and Psy Scream which both require you to back out of melee to maximise their AoE, (where a NW does their best damage), and Psy Scream is slow as molasses.
The speed, radius and mez component allows you to quickly and effectively take out a spawn. While a NW does have decent AoE damage, they can't nuke a spawn. Nuking spawns, (especially without an end crash or any kind of fiddling at all, really), is fantastic for teams. The faster moving the team, the better.
Yes, it is true that psy damage sucks against the stuff that resists it, especially since stuff that resists psy often resists it in bucketloads. Or has psy defense as well, (bloody Carnies).
But that's why I give Forts the edge on teams. NWs do primarily lethal damage, Forts do primarily psy damage. It is far easier to find someone else to pump out lethal damage than it is to pump out psy damage. If you're fighting a mission full of robots, sure, your damage will suck but it's a team.
Look at it this way. If your team is fighting bots, the Fort does almost no damage, everyone else is fine. If your team is fighting something that goes Unstoppable, everyone elses damage goes to pot, the Fort is fine. The whole point of a team is that the total is more than the sum of its parts.
People who can bring smashing/lethal damage to a team:
DP Blasters/Corrs/Defenders
Achery Blaster/Corrs/Defenders
AR Blasters/Corrs/Defenders
Axe Tankers/Brutes
Mace Tankers/Brutes
Claws Scrappers/Brutes
SS Tankers/Brutes
SM Tankers/Brutes
Broadsword Scrappers/Stalkers
Katana Stalkers/Scrappers
Night Widows
and more I've probably forgotten
People who can bring psy damage to a team:
Fortunatas
Psy Blasters/Defenders
/Psy Dominators
Mind Dominators/Controllers sortof
My point is, a team can easily make up for a Fort doing crap damage against stuff that resists them. A Fort makes up for the team doing crap damage against stuff that resists them.
Therefore, I feel a Fort brings more to a team.
Plus, Gloom is for robots :3
Edit: figured out what was breaking the quotes. How irritating.
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Again I said I agree that Fortunata's have the edge when nuking, but I still disagree that they bring more to a team than a Night Widow. My Night Widow brings every buff to the team that a Fortunata does. I take Assault on both my NW and F so the team damage buff is static. The other Leadership toggles are the same for each character so the only benefit that Forts have over Widow is the psi damage which really isn't that big a deal.
I personally don't mind hopping out of melee range to use Psychic Scream and Dark Burst. I also don't think Psi Scream is slow, but then again I am not one of those people that complain about activation times or care about DPS. In my book dead is dead regardless of how long the power takes to activate. A person that uses the NW cones properly can pump out just as much area of effect damage as a Fort can and in some case more depending on what you are fighting. In most cases a Fort does win, but its only a handful of times.
You can EASILY avoid fighting things that use Unstoppable and even if you do encounter them, it will be an Archvillain or Hero and they will be so debuffed that it won't really matter anyway. A Fort really isn't making up for a team doing crap damage except against a handful of enemies on the game and even then the team isn't really doing crap damage because powers like Tar Patch, Melt Armor, etc pretty much negate powers like Unstoppable.
If you feel that Forts bring more to teams than Night Widows that is fine, to each their own, but I can't agree with you. I think they are equal.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
I guess we can just agree to disagree then 
To respond to your points though:
I'm not a big DPS cruncher, but I do feel that one of the main strengths of a Fort/NW is how quick their animations are. I think being able to move fast and react fast is one of the best things about a Fort. It's why I skipped Psy Tornado, the stun whose name currently escapes me and Psy Scream, because none of them had benefits that outweighed me being rooted in place for their (imo sluggish) animations.
While you can avoid stuff that goes Unstoppable and it really is a fringe benefit, I should note that even with a very -res debuffing team, it's not strictly accurate to say it won't matter. Resistance resists resistance debuffs. So if a given AV has capped all their resistances, they're resisting all the debuffs significantly. Heh, actually, in that case the Fort benefits even more because the debuffs will be undiluted on the AV so they're hitting even harder
I should probably qualify my "NWs for solo, Forts for teams statement". I don't think that say, (making up numbers for illustrations sake) NWs are 50% as good as Forts on teams and Forts are 50% as good as NWs solo. It's more like NWs and Forts are both friggin' fantastic solo or teamed, but I think that NWs are have a slight edge solo and that Forts have a slight edge teaming.
The difference is so small as to be basically negligible for the majority of the time. But for those fringe cases, (huge spawn double aggro, Unstoppable AVs), are fairly common on big teams.
As you said though, to each their own. This has been a fun discussion and it's given me some good stuff to think about for my Fort guide, thank you 
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With maximum investment Fortunata > Night Widow. In a solo setting, say trying to solo an AV Forts have access to attack chains that do similar DPA to the widow chains. However, Forts can take both follow-up and aim, which puts them slightly ahead of Night Widows. Not having the extra damage from slash is made up by the damage boost provided by aim.
DPA comparison
Highest damage widow chain I could find
FU > Lunge > Slash > Strike > FU > Lunge > Strike > Slash > FU > Lunge > Strike > Swipe
.86/2.1/1.98/1.3/.86/2.1/1.3/1.98/.86/2.1/1.3/.985 in 14.52s = 1.22 DPA
Standard fortunata chain
Followup > Lunge > Strike > Swipe
.86/2.1/1.3/.985 in 4.488s = 1.17 DPA
But looking at DPS
Widow Attack Chain
W/ Assault + Procs
FU > Lunge > Slash > Strike > FU > Lunge > Strike > Slash > FU > Lunge > Strike > Swipe
.86/2.1/1.98/1.3/.86/2.1/1.3/1.98/.86/2.1/1.3/.985 in 14.52s = 1.22
Follow up = (50.72)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 138.21*3 = 414.63
Lunge = (123.67)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 336.99*3 = 1010.97
Strike = (95.49)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 260.2*3 = 780.6
Swipe = (57.84)*(1+.9364+2*.3+.15) + 14.36 = 169.74
Slash = (174.86)*(1+.967+2*.3+.15) + 35.35 = 510.44*2 = 1020.88
((233.94*85)-905.14)/85
DPS = 233.94 – no ML, 223.29 w/ ML
Fortunata attack chain
Followup > Lunge > Strike > Swipe
.86/2.1/1.3/.985 in 4.488s = 1.17
Follow up = (50.72)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 138.21
Lunge = (123.67)*(1+.9749+3*.3+.15) = 374.09
Strike = (95.49)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 260.2
Swipe = (57.84)*(1+.9665+2*.3+.15) + 10.77 = 167.89
((209.53*85)-566.3)/85
((202.87*26.5)-260.2)/26.5
(193.05*.19) + 193.05
((229.73*20)-802.18+419.09)/20
(210.58*.2) + 210.58
DPS = 209.53- no ML, 202.87 w/ ML, 229.73 w/ aim+ML, 252.7 w/ shatter armor
** Copy pasted from some notes that I keep but the important parts are bolded. The actual DPS calculation is off a little as I didn't take into account the constant 5% chance to miss. That applies to both builds however so for the purposes of this post it's irrelevant.
tl;dr
Widow dps - 223.29 w/ ML
Fort dps - 229.73 w/ aim+ML
At the very high end DPS is nearly equal between the two builds. As stated earlier the fort has better team options, and range attack options. Aura of Confusion is also one of the better powers available to VEATs(clone of mind control's tier 9 only difference is pbae as opposed to targeted ae). If you can make the investment you get more out of a Fortunata.
See that is where we differ because I absolutely LOVE Psychic Scream and Psychic Tornado. Those two powers combined pretty much wipe out spawns and even if they root you for a brief moment, the end result is worth it.
I don't really care much about Scramble Thoughts, but that power can one-shot stun bosses, but it still isn't a power I care to take for a permanent build.
As for AVs I have yet to come across one that caps their resistance and is difficult to kill. Perfect example is Miss Liberty in the Recluse SF. We consistently kill her without even using the temp power and Stateman drops extremely quick even with Unstoppable running. No matter if their resistances are capped, most AVs do not have capped debuff resistance so again I do not feel that Forts have any advantage when it comes to mobs that use powers like Unstoppable. I do agree with you that being able to do psi damage to enemies that use Unstoppable is a plus, but not something I would give a Fort the benefit over NWs.
I would say it comes down to style of play more than anything else because from the sound of it I would say you and I have had vastly different play experiences with our Night Widows and Fortunatas.
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I have 2 builds, so I run both.
The Night Widow is by far the more efficient solo killer. Nothing can touch it, and the added Toxic damage burns through enemies like acid. The only hard part is knowing when to stop grabbing awesome melee attacks and when to focus on your defense and team buffs. It's able to solo AVs, and can bring a team along for the ride, if it feels like it.
A Fort isn't quite as effective solo, but that doesn't make it any less fun. The control powers and ranged damage give you completely different tactics, especially with your stealth. Mine focuses more on ST damage, with Psychic Wail to clear annoying groups and Confuse to mess with stuff. All of my other powers go towards softcapping defense or support.
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With I-17 I finally get to roll a VEAT. I decided to go the Widow route but am not sure which branch, Night Widow or Fortunata, is more fun to play. I want to be somewhat AoE centered and I like running ITFs in the late game. But other than that, which one do you people who already have one find more fun to play. Thanks for your input.