Earth/Ice... What to avoid and what to slot?
By
Ben_Arizona,
Posted on: 2010-04-24 21:02 in Controllers
Avoid: Salt Crystals. It's a PBAoE sleep on 90 second Recharge in the middle of a Ranged set. A rather baffling power, really.
Also, take Quicksand or Snow Storm, not both. For Earth trollers I usually recommend Quicksand. For you, I'm going to say Snow Storm is better. That's because you can stack the -Recharge in Snow Storm and you already have reliable auto-hit -Defense in Sleet.
Most people take either Stone Cage or Stone Prison, usually not both.
Hasten is a must-grab for me on all Controller builds. So, normally, is Ninja Run (which requires the Ninja Pack) but for you I'd recommend spending the slot on Super Speed. The reason is that once you can use Heat Loss, you can run around invisible (due to Arctic Fog).
I skip Frostwork in Cold Dom because it's just so-so as a power. It benefits your teammates much less than you might assume at first, tho you can use it on your pet I guess.
Slotting: Much trickier. A few powers are obvious, some are not. I assume you're building for max Recharge (I would). Here are the must-grabs that stand out to me:
- Luck of the Gambler +Recharge in both Cold shields and Arctic Fog.
- Benumb - I slot 2 Acc 2 Recharge
- Sleet - There are several ways to do it but sneak a Achille's Heel proc in there
It would take a while to explain all the slotting you could do. I'd recommend looking at some Earth and Cold Dom guides.
I opted for quicksand over snowstorm and I've been happy with that choice. Snowstorm is a wonderful power when you can keep it reliably working. But, its a toggle and it gets switched off every time you get mezzed. Quicksand is more reliably helpful than snowstorm and its hefty helping of -def is very helpful when on teams.
I also wouldn't take salt crystals. I took stone prison to solo better, and didn't bother with stone cages. That reduces overall damage done because containment isn't maximized. But, I focus on control and buffs / debuffs instead with my earth / cold. YMMV, and stone cages is also a reasonable choice.
I did take frostworks as a leveling up power, as well as both shields. Frostworks has the base slot and one more, with a heal and a recharge in the two slots devoted to it, which is part of why I took it; powers that buff and require few slots are nice to have, while leveling up. I put frostworks on the team's alpha taker and also on the teammate(s) who have the biggest death wish. In theory, players can cap their own hit points and get no benefit from frostworks. In practice, very few players take the time needed to do that and teammates tend to faceplant less often with frostworks on them. Also, when soloing, I stick both shields and frostworks on Rocky, and he never, ever dies.
With arctic air for stealth, your controller can be positioned appropriately to open with stalagmites or when soloing you can move on by mobs, and Rocky will engage mobs first and draw their aggro. You can then strike with your controller, either with sleet or with a control power. Soloing is quite straightforward, this way.
Slotting is pretty much what you would expect. Cold does require significant slotting to get it working well, but you should still have an adequate number of slots for your earth powers.
Regarding movement powers, super speed matches nicely with arctic air to provide invisibility and hasten meshes nicely with the powers you have on a long timer, for an earth/cold.
Outstanding responses, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very, very much!
I may be a bit strange, but I took both Quicksand and Snow Storm, and respecced out of the immobs entirely. My reasoning is as follows.
First, why I dropped the immobs: Earthquake + Quicksand is my primary means of control. Stalagmites is extremely useful for filling in when Earthquake is not up, but its duration is too short for it to be as "standard" as Earthquake. Because I am so heavily using Earthquake, the immobs have the potential to be counterproductive: they can keep stunned enemies from wandering, but Quicksand (which is essentially perma) can keep them mostly under control without then interfering with an Earthquake I may want to lay down when/if Stalagmites wears off. So, taking the immobs for the sake of actually immobilizing enemies is not terribly helpful. The reason I had taken the immobs before respeccing was to have an extra source of damage when solo. At 32, Animate Stone drastically reduces the need for this; if I exemplar down below 27 I will lose that, but barring the urge for Ouroboros soloing, if I exemplar below 27 I will be on a team, where the damage from the immobs is a joke anyway and having more control/buff/debuff is far more useful to me. So, that's the argument against the immobs for me - they could be a bit useful on the way up, but I wouldn't keep them and sort of wish I hadn't taken it to begin with.
Now, as to why take Snow Storm when I've already got Quicksand: First off, Snowstorm is an AoE -fly. This is extremely useful for keeping things in your debuff/control fields (quicksand, earthquake, volcanic gasses). Second, it's a massive toggle -recharge; even +2s will be attacking only half as often with it going. Against large groups of enemies with particular "problem powers" (mezzers, sorcerers, shamans, just about any enemy with a significant debuff power) this will have a significant impact. Yes, it drops if the anchor dies or you get mezzed, but that's a problem that any toggle debuff has, and /rads get by somehow. 
Snow Storm's not a power for every situation, but if you remember you have it and use it appropriately you'll be glad you took it. It's probably one of the more skippable powers in Cold Domination if you absolutely must shave some picks, but that's mainly because CD is so full of delicious things.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
I may be a bit strange, but I took both Quicksand and Snow Storm, and respecced out of the immobs entirely. My reasoning is as follows.
First, why I dropped the immobs: Earthquake + Quicksand is my primary means of control. Stalagmites is extremely useful for filling in when Earthquake is not up, but its duration is too short for it to be as "standard" as Earthquake. Because I am so heavily using Earthquake, the immobs have the potential to be counterproductive: they can keep stunned enemies from wandering, but Quicksand (which is essentially perma) can keep them mostly under control without then interfering with an Earthquake I may want to lay down when/if Stalagmites wears off. So, taking the immobs for the sake of actually immobilizing enemies is not terribly helpful. The reason I had taken the immobs before respeccing was to have an extra source of damage when solo. At 32, Animate Stone drastically reduces the need for this; if I exemplar down below 27 I will lose that, but barring the urge for Ouroboros soloing, if I exemplar below 27 I will be on a team, where the damage from the immobs is a joke anyway and having more control/buff/debuff is far more useful to me. So, that's the argument against the immobs for me - they could be a bit useful on the way up, but I wouldn't keep them and sort of wish I hadn't taken it to begin with. Now, as to why take Snow Storm when I've already got Quicksand: First off, Snowstorm is an AoE -fly. This is extremely useful for keeping things in your debuff/control fields (quicksand, earthquake, volcanic gasses). Second, it's a massive toggle -recharge; even +2s will be attacking only half as often with it going. Against large groups of enemies with particular "problem powers" (mezzers, sorcerers, shamans, just about any enemy with a significant debuff power) this will have a significant impact. Yes, it drops if the anchor dies or you get mezzed, but that's a problem that any toggle debuff has, and /rads get by somehow. Snow Storm's not a power for every situation, but if you remember you have it and use it appropriately you'll be glad you took it. It's probably one of the more skippable powers in Cold Domination if you absolutely must shave some picks, but that's mainly because CD is so full of delicious things. |
The reason to take the AoE immob is to get easy Containment for your epic AoE blast. When I was playing Earth a lot I didn't actually use it a lot for that, since I was teaming and preferred Earthquake for safety reasons. But it's a good ability to have if you want to solo in the 40s.
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This is fair, I suppose. Part of it is just backlash on my part against a "CONTAINMENT IS GOD" mentality I see here and there, where people (not the majority of people, but quite a few) seem to think that building controllers for containment at all times and all situations should be maximum priority. Part of it is just my general dislike of immobs for controllers, too. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The reason to take the AoE immob is to get easy Containment for your epic AoE blast. When I was playing Earth a lot I didn't actually use it a lot for that, since I was teaming and preferred Earthquake for safety reasons. But it's a good ability to have if you want to solo in the 40s.
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If room for it opened later I might take it, but for the reasons I've explained it's not really a priority.Anyway my dislike of immobs led me off onto a tangent. The main point was supposed to be that there's a reasonable case to be made for having both Snow Storm and Quicksand: A toggle with -fly has non-trivial value to an Earth controller, especially against certain types of enemies (Cabal, Sky Raiders), and a toggle AoE recharge debuff has value against quite a few others. The fact that movement slow will be going past the cap hardly even bears on it, in my view.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Anyway my dislike of immobs led me off onto a tangent. The main point was supposed to be that there's a reasonable case to be made for having both Snow Storm and Quicksand: A toggle with -fly has non-trivial value to an Earth controller, especially against certain types of enemies (Cabal, Sky Raiders), and a toggle AoE recharge debuff has value against quite a few others. The fact that movement slow will be going past the cap hardly even bears on it, in my view.
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I understand your point. For most people, though, I think having both is probably overkill, because there are so many other important powers to grab in Cold and Earth. It's not so much a factor of the powers being bad as what you have to leave out to take both.
I have an Earth/Ice at 50 that was really fun to level.
Mainly because of all the -def and -res potential that you can dish out. It's also one of the best field troller I've been able to play around with as you can easily control 2 mobs and maybe 3 with soft control until the finish of the fight.
I agree, solely with the reason you're /ice, that the AoE immob. doesn't compliment the build well. This is because you have both potentials of earthquake+sleet that keeps +4 mobs bouncing with np. They also come up fairly quickly.
Volcanic gas will keep mobs held pretty well... and stalagmites is a plus for when it's not up. Stick stag into that EQ+sleet combo for some well soft controlled mobs.
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Such as, for example, the immobs. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I understand your point. For most people, though, I think having both is probably overkill, because there are so many other important powers to grab in Cold and Earth. It's not so much a factor of the powers being bad as what you have to leave out to take both.
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Two groups you see for just a few levels in your 20s and 30s, I don't see it as that important of an example. -Fly is situational at best.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
A toggle with -fly has non-trivial value to an Earth controller, especially against certain types of enemies (Cabal, Sky Raiders), and a toggle AoE recharge debuff has value against quite a few others. The fact that movement slow will be going past the cap hardly even bears on it, in my view.
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Cabal and Sky Raiders were the ones that came first to mind. Basically any situation where enemies like to fly around and there are large spawns, AoE grounding helps.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Two groups you see for just a few levels in your 20s and 30s, I don't see it as that important of an example. -Fly is situational at best.
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If you want a more common example, Freak Juicers and Stunners like to fly out of earthquakes sometimes, especially in large groups. Also (as I said) the -recharge is pretty significant with groups that have obnoxious "specialty" powers , which become more common at higher levels.
I rarely use it when soloing, but on large groups Snow Storm shouldn't be ignored.
I'm in the camp where I prefer to have Stone Cages over two slows. For lots of reasons: (a) Stone Cages have -Fly which will handle the problem the majority of the time . . . plus there is -fly in Quicksand, so once they are on the ground, you can keep them there. (b) Stone Cages sets up Containment, as others have mentioned. (c) Stone Cages + Stalagmites act as a hold. While the Slows reduce the movement of the stunned foes, some often do wander out of the AoE of the slow. (d) Stone Cages is your fastest recharging control power. You can fire it off every few seconds. Add a proc or two, and that damage can add up. On the other hand, the Slows will only fire off procs every 10 seconds, and you don't have as many procs available. (e) Stone Cages + a corner to hide behind is just as good as an AoE hold . .. up every few seconds and able to be made perma at LEVEL 4! (f) There is a significant value to -Knockback . . . depending upon your teammates. Just try teaming with a Peacebringer. And if you realize that the -knockback only works for 12 seconds, you can use that to your advantage, since the Immob continues long past then. Cast Stone Cages, and just as the 12 seconds starts to run out, you can then use Earthquake or Freezing Rain a/k/a Sleet to make them bounce in place. (g) People complain that Stone Cages conflicts with Earthquake and the knockdown in Sleet/Freezing Rain -- just don't cast it. Too many people think that Stone Cages has to be spammed, but it can be used stragically. (h) Personally, I like the graphics of huge stone things locking down foes. It also makes the foes easy to see.
While there are some benefits to having both slows, I think the better choice is to take Stone Cages. The combo of Stalagmites+Stone Cages is just too good and fast as a "First Strike" control. Both Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses take a few seconds to work on the entire group, but Stalagmites is your only "instant control" AoE power.
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I respect your standpoint, but disagree with it as a matter of personal taste. Referring to Stone Cages as your "fastest recharging control power" is, in my mind, misleading as I don't consider immobilization to be a "real" control. It does, as you note, create Containment, but I do not consider Containment to be a significant end in itself (and I am aware that I am in the minority on this point). I do not like Stone Cages as an anti-fly, since for my earth/cold the primary purpose of an anti-fly is to drop them into my Earthquake, and dropping flying enemies into an earthquake with a power that renders them immune to it seems a little silly.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I'm in the camp where I prefer to have Stone Cages over two slows. For lots of reasons: (a) Stone Cages have -Fly which will handle the problem the majority of the time . . . plus there is -fly in Quicksand, so once they are on the ground, you can keep them there. (b) Stone Cages sets up Containment, as others have mentioned. (c) Stone Cages + Stalagmites act as a hold. While the Slows reduce the movement of the stunned foes, some often do wander out of the AoE of the slow. (d) Stone Cages is your fastest recharging control power. You can fire it off every few seconds. Add a proc or two, and that damage can add up. On the other hand, the Slows will only fire off procs every 10 seconds, and you don't have as many procs available. (e) Stone Cages + a corner to hide behind is just as good as an AoE hold . .. up every few seconds and able to be made perma at LEVEL 4! (f) There is a significant value to -Knockback . . . depending upon your teammates. Just try teaming with a Peacebringer. And if you realize that the -knockback only works for 12 seconds, you can use that to your advantage, since the Immob continues long past then. Cast Stone Cages, and just as the 12 seconds starts to run out, you can then use Earthquake or Freezing Rain a/k/a Sleet to make them bounce in place. (g) People complain that Stone Cages conflicts with Earthquake and the knockdown in Sleet/Freezing Rain -- just don't cast it. Too many people think that Stone Cages has to be spammed, but it can be used stragically. (h) Personally, I like the graphics of huge stone things locking down foes. It also makes the foes easy to see.
While there are some benefits to having both slows, I think the better choice is to take Stone Cages. The combo of Stalagmites+Stone Cages is just too good and fast as a "First Strike" control. Both Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses take a few seconds to work on the entire group, but Stalagmites is your only "instant control" AoE power. |
As for the duration of the KB protection, I freely concede that part of it is that this is somewhat more juggling of timing specifics than I'm especially fond of. However, I think it's pretty hilarious that when I try to argue in favor of /devices on the blaster boards people rant and scream that five seconds is an unpardonably long delay on teams, while on the controller boards you're rendering Earthquake ineffective for "only twelve seconds"!
Some people like immobilizes. Actually, I'm quite fond of them myself on non-Controllers (Web Grenade is much beloved of me). However, on Controllers I find them generally unappealing, and one of the many reasons I'm very fond of Illusion and Mind Control is that they don't waste your time on them. My Fire/Rad does use Fire Cages, because he makes heavy use of a small-radius effect patch with avoidance that doesn't immediately prevent enemies from fleeing it (Hot Feet + Choking Cloud) and because using it with his stun doesn't penalize his other abilities. On the other hand, I find Earth's effect patches extremely effective at keeping people in them, and the immobilize works against one of them, so it's far less appealing.
Immobilizes are not useless powers, and if you have them you'll find ways to use them. Depending on your priorities, they might be worth taking. However, my experience is such as to lead me to recommend that an Earth/Cold either skip them or respec out of them after 32. I had them, I used them, I dropped them, I find the powers I took instead more useful to me.
Having the AOE immob is good for when you hit the 40s, assuming you're taking an AOE Blast. The one-two combo gives your fairly weak aoe blast a nice ooomph via Containment.
Personally I'd take Quicksand and Cages (the two work nicely together) and drop Snowstorm, probably on a level 37 respec (I usually do one around then).
Before that I'd take QS and Snowstorm and ignore cages. Pseudo-hold is nice and all but not as critical as people sometimes say it is, a bit of staggering about isn't a bad thing. I've always found Snowstorm something I used widely initially and less and less as time went on and I went up levels.
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This is a reasonable standpoint, although as I've said it is not my choice as a matter of taste.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Having the AOE immob is good for when you hit the 40s, assuming you're taking an AOE Blast. The one-two combo gives your fairly weak aoe blast a nice ooomph via Containment.
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My earth/cold is probably the least solo-oriented of my controllers, and it's my feeling that if you want a solo-oriented controller earth/cold is not a terribly good choice for it. As a team-oriented earth/cold will be a fantastic teammate, and a solo-oriented earth/cold will simply be less terrible at soloing than the team earth/cold rather than actually being good at it, it makes sense to me to build for team play with an earth/cold.
The damage from the immobs and the containment on your APP blast will make your damage output go approximately from "terrible" to just "bad". (I am leaving aside Animate Stone here because Rocky does not benefit from Containment anyway.) Soloing, the difference between terrible and bad is fairly significant. On teams, the difference between terrible damage and bad damage is not especially noticeable, while the difference between having or not having a given utility power may be considerably moreso.
As I say, they may be worth taking depending on your priorities, but they are not always worth taking on an earth/cold. I would consider that, after Salt Crystals, the immobs are the most skippable powers for a strongly team-oriented Earth/Cold. Quite possibly they are not for a strongly solo-oriented Earth/Cold, who may wish to consider skipping Snow Storm or Frostworks instead.
All,
I skipped Snow Storm, Frostwork, Stone Prison, and Salt Crystals. I took everything else. I made mine as a (primarily) team build oriented for (eventually) recharge. I wouldn't mind having Snow Storm for AV situations, but otherwise I do not miss it at all.
Here is my build. You could easily put LOTG in both shields and in Arctic Fog, and throw the relatively cheap purple set in Stone Cages and move a recharge from Frost Breath and put it on Sleet so that you could get Tempered readiness recharge bonuses in both Heat Loss and Sleep. Then you'd hit around 85% or so recharge I guess. But, it wasn't worth it to me.
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Frostquake: Level 50 Mutation Controller
Primary Power Set: Earth Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fossilize -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(7), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(7), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(17)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(A)
Level 2: Ice Shield -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def(9), DefBuff-I(9), Krma-ResKB(25)
Level 4: Stone Cages -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(5), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(5), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(40), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(46)
Level 6: Quicksand -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 10: Glacial Shield -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def(11), DefBuff-I(11)
Level 12: Stalagmites -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(13), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(13), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(15), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(15), Rope-Acc/Stun/Rchg(17)
Level 14: Super Speed -- QckFt-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 16: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 18: Earthquake -- UndDef-Rchg/EndRdx(A), UndDef-Rchg(19), RechRdx-I(19), Achilles-ResDeb%(25)
Level 20: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(23), EndMod-I(23), P'Shift-End%(50)
Level 24: Recall Friend -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(27), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(27), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29), EoCur-Acc/Hold/Rchg(31)
Level 28: Benumb -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(31), RechRdx-I(34), RechRdx-I(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 30: Arctic Fog -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(37)
Level 32: Animate Stone -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(33), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(43)
Level 35: Sleet -- CtlSpd-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(36), P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(36), RechRdx-I(36), Achilles-ResDeb%(37)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- P'ngTtl-Acc/Slow(A), P'ngTtl-Acc/EndRdx(39), P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(39), P'ngTtl--Rchg%(39), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Ice Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Frost Breath -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dam%(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dam%(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 0: Ninja Run
Code:
Lewis
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And for that you'd be "wrong".| Referring to Stone Cages as your "fastest recharging control power" is, in my mind, misleading as I don't consider immobilization to be a "real" control. |
Now if you said you don't think its a "good" control, that is one thing because it is opinion. But saying it isn't a "real" control is incorrect because it is afterall a control power.
With proper aggro control and knowledge of your powersets, aoe immobs are not only viable but affective forms of control. Too much emphasis is placed on flippy floppy powers where enemies can be knocked out of the zone of affect far too easily especially if you have floppy unfriendly teammates. To not have an aoe immob you take away an option for such teams. I would argue you see that way more than the need for -fly. Noone is saying that you have to use immobs all the time, but you argue for snowstorm situationally as well. Some of us think in the battle of "situational" the immob wins out. Freezing rain/sleet is a wonderful power for the debuffs alone, the flippy floppy is nice but I consider it a bonus (and one you can use quite well, but it's not vital to the effectiveness of the power). Personally I'd rather hold the enemy in place, debuff the begeezus out of them then let the damage types run in and kill them all.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I have to agree with this. Again, only because the build is Earth/Ice. The damage wont be great in the long run and the end requirement for the AoE is hefty compared to its damage. Plus if you're truly team oriented then you will be spending quite a bit of your team laying field effects and stopping (debuffing) heavy hitters.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
The damage from the immobs and the containment on your APP blast will make your damage output go approximately from "terrible" to just "bad". (I am leaving aside Animate Stone here because Rocky does not benefit from Containment anyway.) Soloing, the difference between terrible and bad is fairly significant. On teams, the difference between terrible damage and bad damage is not especially noticeable, while the difference between having or not having a given utility power may be considerably moreso.
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If you feel like you want to rely on the AoE dmg in your APPs then throwing down quicksand+stalagmites and then firing off your AoE will do fine. The mobs will still stick around for a burst damage attack and be slow enough for DoT AoEs. The only mobs that will be impartial to the KD would be wolves, which iirc can get out of immob. effects easily too.
There's two KD potential powers that stack each other nicely in both sets. Earthquake and Sleet. You really don't want to miss out on their quick-recharging potential.
Champion/Freedom Servers
@Orion Zidane
@Orion Zidane2
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Exactly . . . and for a fast moving team, no other control power will be up for EVERY group. |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
And for that you'd be "wrong".
Now if you said you don't think its a "good" control, that is one thing because it is opinion. But saying it isn't a "real" control is incorrect because it is afterall a control power. With proper aggro control and knowledge of your powersets, aoe immobs are not only viable but affective forms of control. Too much emphasis is placed on flippy floppy powers where enemies can be knocked out of the zone of affect far too easily especially if you have floppy unfriendly teammates. To not have an aoe immob you take away an option for such teams. I would argue you see that way more than the need for -fly. Noone is saying that you have to use immobs all the time, but you argue for snowstorm situationally as well. Some of us think in the battle of "situational" the immob wins out. Freezing rain/sleet is a wonderful power for the debuffs alone, the flippy floppy is nice but I consider it a bonus (and one you can use quite well, but it's not vital to the effectiveness of the power). Personally I'd rather hold the enemy in place, debuff the begeezus out of them then let the damage types run in and kill them all. |
I was on a team with my Earth/Storm yesterday, and my use of Stalagmites+Stone Cages + Freezing Rain substantially sped up the team's kill speed. Next group, I might use Earthquake+Quicksand, or Volcanic Gasses + Quicksand -- but only after the tank and/or scrappers run in to grab the aggro. Using Earthquake or Volcanic Gasses as an Alpha-attack is likely to draw some aggro. And frankly, if the Tank/Scrapper goes in to grab the aggro, I might as well use Stone Cages if the team is killing fast enough. The Stalagmites+Stone Cages combo are cast in very few seconds -- just barely before the blaster runs in to AoE everything. And the Peacebringer who joined up had no problems with knockback most of the time as long as he waited for my Cages first.
Once or twice, I used Cages and then ducked behind a barrier to avoid the aggro . . . but other than that, Cages was a huge benefit to me and the team.
Now, everyone has their own playsyle, so I don't fault folks who don't like the AoE Immob . . . but I suggest that anyone trying out a controller should try it first and learn the strategies to make it effective. If you don't like if after that, then drop it.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Also Stone Cages can take procs to make it a very very nice power indeed. I put in two damage and Gav Anchor and you have a nice damaging AOE power that helps to stack mag.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
While there are some benefits to having both slows, I think the better choice is to take Stone Cages. The combo of Stalagmites+Stone Cages is just too good and fast as a "First Strike" control. Both Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses take a few seconds to work on the entire group, but Stalagmites is your only "instant control" AoE power.
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I'm with Local here, I wouldn't omit any of the AOE immobs, they are far too useful for too many things.
I'd still pick Snow Storm over Quicksand for this powerset pairing. The reason to go Quicksand normally is the autohit -Defense. But in this case, Sleet is already going to do -30% Defense on its own, and your Earth powers are going to send enemy defense to the floor very quickly.
Meanwhile you would be bypassing a significant source of AoE -Recharge. The minus ~60% Recharge in Snow Storm stacks with the minus ~40% in Sleet to hit respectable numbers. That will floor a same level up to +2 enemy or so (which means its powers recharge x4 slower). Against a +4, it will put -Recharge at around -50% after resistances, which results in about double the rate of Recharge.
Without Snow Storm, Sleet's -40% Recharge is too small to matter. It won't even double the Recharge time on a same level enemy. Against a +4 it's only -20% Recharge. I doubt you'd even notice that.
You'll also be getting -Recharge in Heat Loss, but it can't be perma'ed.
If you're interested in learning more about -Recharge and what it means, look at this post I wrote a little while back: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218111
By a "real control", I mean that it does not reduce the enemy's ability to take action on its own.
You call Stone Cages the only AoE control that will be up every group, and then you immediately talk only about using it in pairing with Stalagmites. In my eyes, this situation has Stalagmites applying the actual control element, with Stone Cages being used to minimize side-effects of Stalagmites. While Stone Cages does this very well, and I do not deny that it does this very well, I feel that Quicksand does well enough in this regard given that Stone Cages is not otherwise a very good power. If you do not feel that Quicksand minimizes the effects of Stalagmites well enough, then certainly go ahead and take Stone Cages.
(You may not think that Quicksand or Snow Storm is otherwise a very good power. This is of course your personal taste, and de gustibus non est disputandum. For my part, I find their debuffs much more useful than a little extra wander reduction on Stalagmites.)
MentalMaden, you say that "too much emphasis is placed on the flippy floppy powers". This is because the typical practice, as Local_Man describes and my experience reflects, involves alternating between Earthquake and Stalagmites as an opener control on a fast-moving team, and while flippy-floppy is a nice side-effect for Sleet it is the basis of Earthquake's control aspect. Emphasis is placed on the AOE knockdown because one of Earth's two fast-recharging controls is an AoE knockdown field. For my part, I feel too much emphasis is placed on nullifying the wandering from stun, but I at least acknowledge that someone who finds that more annoying than Quicksand can handle will be seeing it often enough that I can understand wanting to do more about it. Saying that an earth/cold puts too much emphasis on his knockdown fields is like saying that a plant controller pays too much attention to Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers: it's because they're critical powers you'll be using a lot.
Edit: I should probably clarify something. I tend to see a lot of people's advice being that Stone Cages is essentially mandatory for an earth controller because otherwise the wander from Stalagmites is unmanageable. I did take the immobs on my earth/cold, but I found from personal experience that the wander was greatly mitigated by Quicksand, to the extent where I stopped bothering to use the immobilize after Stalagmites if there was a quicksand patch. Since Quicksand applies a large defense debuff, I use it very often, and eventually ended up just going with a Quicksand + Stalagmites combo instead of Cages + Stalagmites. At that point, I was using the immobilizes solely for -fly and extra damage, and the extra damage contributed was not terribly significant, even slotted for damage. I started using Snow Storm for -fly instead, and eventually respecced out of the immobs entirely. I have not missed them. I do not say that no earth controller should ever try taking them, but they are also not nearly as mandatory as they are made out to be, nor is Snow Storm as low-tier a power as people like to make it out to be.
THANK YOU all for the help, tips, advice you have given me for my troller. i am sitting at lvl 17 now and loving. My dude doesn't do any damage to speak besides sands and blackwand, but that is fine with me because in team settings I help out enormously I have noticed. I did end up picking up both quicksand and snow storm, I personally like the -rech on snow storm and being able to throw down quicksand to block doorways and such.
Will my damage output improve at higher lvls?
Thanks again,
Brakkus
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1. Nowhere did I say I didn't like either QS or SS. QS for the def debuff alone is an important power. I'd never say it's not.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
By a "real control", I mean that it does not reduce the enemy's ability to take action on its own.
You call Stone Cages the only AoE control that will be up every group, and then you immediately talk only about using it in pairing with Stalagmites. In my eyes, this situation has Stalagmites applying the actual control element, with Stone Cages being used to minimize side-effects of Stalagmites. While Stone Cages does this very well, and I do not deny that it does this very well, I feel that Quicksand does well enough in this regard given that Stone Cages is not otherwise a very good power. If you do not feel that Quicksand minimizes the effects of Stalagmites well enough, then certainly go ahead and take Stone Cages. (You may not think that Quicksand or Snow Storm is otherwise a very good power. This is of course your personal taste, and de gustibus non est disputandum. For my part, I find their debuffs much more useful than a little extra wander reduction on Stalagmites.) MentalMaden, you say that "too much emphasis is placed on the flippy floppy powers". This is because the typical practice, as Local_Man describes and my experience reflects, involves alternating between Earthquake and Stalagmites as an opener control on a fast-moving team, and while flippy-floppy is a nice side-effect for Sleet it is the basis of Earthquake's control aspect. Emphasis is placed on the AOE knockdown because one of Earth's two fast-recharging controls is an AoE knockdown field. For my part, I feel too much emphasis is placed on nullifying the wandering from stun, but I at least acknowledge that someone who finds that more annoying than Quicksand can handle will be seeing it often enough that I can understand wanting to do more about it. Saying that an earth/cold puts too much emphasis on his knockdown fields is like saying that a plant controller pays too much attention to Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers: it's because they're critical powers you'll be using a lot. Edit: I should probably clarify something. I tend to see a lot of people's advice being that Stone Cages is essentially mandatory for an earth controller because otherwise the wander from Stalagmites is unmanageable. I did take the immobs on my earth/cold, but I found from personal experience that the wander was greatly mitigated by Quicksand, to the extent where I stopped bothering to use the immobilize after Stalagmites if there was a quicksand patch. Since Quicksand applies a large defense debuff, I use it very often, and eventually ended up just going with a Quicksand + Stalagmites combo instead of Cages + Stalagmites. At that point, I was using the immobilizes solely for -fly and extra damage, and the extra damage contributed was not terribly significant, even slotted for damage. I started using Snow Storm for -fly instead, and eventually respecced out of the immobs entirely. I have not missed them. I do not say that no earth controller should ever try taking them, but they are also not nearly as mandatory as they are made out to be, nor is Snow Storm as low-tier a power as people like to make it out to be. |
2. I'm not as worried about the wandering of stun as I am keeping any enemies in a tight group for aoe damage types to come in and finish off the group. With aggro management....i.e. not just spamming cages willy nilly and having good solid melee teammates to soak the aggro: cages does just fine.
3. My experience with controllers is pretty extensive, too. Not sure if you were implying that it might not be. My favorite powerset is earth control and I know it quite well.
[Below is my take on kd powers not directed to the above quoted poster specifically]
If you've seen me post in the controller forums before, you'd know that I've been very consistent in my lack of awe of knockdown powers. Yes, I realize they are effective. Yes, I use them. What I don't do is get my panties in a bunch if I have a teammate who has powers that negate some of mine. Part of any playstyle and build should be adaptability. All you need is one teammate with heavy knockback and kd powers are pretty much useless. I contend that you need more tools in your toolbox to adapt. Instead of getting all worked up about a teammate that has heavy kb OR one that has -kb, why not have something to work with them instead of against them. It was very trendy a few years back to get all hot and bothered if a controller took -kb powers because god forbid they negate some poor ice controllers ice slick (or other like power). In the end it doesn't really matter as long as the job is getting done, the enemy is dead and the team is having fun. One power shouldn't make the rest of a team walk on eggshells so the poor controller doesn't get their feelings hurt that it wasn't their kd power that "did the job". Stomp/Clap (stun + immob) is just as effective a form of control (I'd argue even better), why is kd so much more important? Again, I'll stress that does not mean I don't see the value in those powers, that I won't use those powers and that I won't do everything in my ability to allow those powers to be effective. Why? Because I have the tools in my power selection to be adaptable. If you don't have a build that is somewhat adaptable, then I don't think it is as effective as one that is. That is all I'm saying.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Greetings all,
I have finally decided to roll my first troller, and have picked Earth/Ice for my sets, I am lvl ten right now and LOVING it. I have a few questions...
1. What powers do I avoid, if any?
2. How should I slot the main powers, basic overview would be great.
Ok, so I lied, not a few, just two questions. I would GREATLY appreciate help with this alt, so i dont fall down dead repeatedly. Thank you in advance!!
Brakkus