Earth/Ice... What to avoid and what to slot?
By
Ben_Arizona,
Posted on: 2010-04-24 21:02 in Controllers
I think the problem you run into with Earth/Ice is the same as you run into with Earth/Storm - there is only one "bad" power in the two sets combined. Picking what to leave out is tricky at best. On my Earth/Storm I ended up leaving out a travel power because there were so many things I wanted. Earth/Ice is the same way, Salt Crystals is the only power in the two sets together that wouldn't end up being really handy at some time or another. You may end up having to respec several times in order to figure out exactly which powers fit your style, and then just lament the few you couldn't take. Even so, it should be a very fun, powerful build regardless of what you end up keeping.
Some you HAVE to take:
Both shields, Earthquake, Volcanic Gasses, the Freezing Rain clone, the Steaming Mists clone, Infridgidate, the single target hold, Stalagmites, and Stoney. Everything else is negotiable, depending on your style, and whether you intend to solo, and how many veteran attacks you have.
I personally like Frostwork, combined with your shields and controls, it is generally enough to keep that agro grabbing blaster alive even through his amazing stupidity, or keep the tank topped out and REALLY hard to kill - even if he started the mission as a scrapper 
Not having it I think takes a tool out of your box that meets a need that none of your other powers can quite match. There will be times, when nothing but having a person regain some health will keep them alive. I like O2 boost for the same reason in /Storm.
* edited because I left out Stalagmites and that is not negotiable.
Ohhh Ben, never cut back on Earthquake; It has a good accuracy debuff that will still be helping your team even when someone cages over it. I tend to six slot earthquake and slot for both recharge and accuracy debuff(using sets to maximize both), then add a couple procs, because an Earth controller can never have enough procs
Yes Ben, but I don't believe earthquake is one of the best powers in earth/ice. That is where we differ and will probably have to agree to disagree. As I said, knockdown patches are over emphasized in my opinion.
Sleet is one of the best powers and that has absolutely nothing to do with knockdown; that's just icing on the flippyfloppy cake.
And Sweet has a very good point, the debuffs alone on earthquake can warrant application even when flopping won't happen. It will also catch any stragglers.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I should clarify: "cut back on Earthquake for control". It remains, as you note, a fantastic debuff patch.
If Earthquake is not one of the best powers in earth/cold, it is because those two sets are packed with fantastic powers. That said, I find it an excellent staple control, and don't find the arguments in favor of Stone Cages generally compelling.
Brakkus, I just saw your last post. To answer your question, Yes, eventually you will deal some damage. If you want to be able to deal damage earlier, you can do what I do and Proc EVERYTHING. Here's a list of possible places for damage procs, that when you get enough of them stacking, actually ends up killing things.
If you only take a few, they won't do much. Having a lot of them, in aoe powers, getting LOTs of different checks on all the mobs constantly is where they end up working well for you.
Quicksand (slow set proc), Earthquake (Lady Grey, and knockback set proc), Sleet (Lady Grey, and Positrons), Volcanic gasses can take at least three, but I only use two and then use 4x acc/hold/recharge to get it back up as often as possible and to hold stuff,since you know... it is an aoe hold(VG - the two hold set procs are the cheapest way to go but it will take Positrons too). Stone Cages will take Trap of the Hunter and Positrons, but I usually go full set Trap of the Hunter for the high ranged defense bonus in the 6th slot. Snowstorm(slow set proc). Note: going this route is sort of expensive for a casual player, and it takes a while to get enough slots into powers so that they are both doing their jobs, and procing for you too. At level 17, just concentrate on control, and find teams you can use to do the killing(while you make them invincible).
Even using these, soloing will be very slow till you get the pet. Once you get into your 40s, the aoes from the epic pools will put out a LOT of damage, and the Earth set has a Huge damage power in Seismic Smash that is also a hold!(drool), but Frost Breath and Fire Ball both do respectable damage when contained, and the foes are pre-debuffed.
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I think we are arguing less FOR stone cages as we are arguing against not taking stone cages.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
I should clarify: "cut back on Earthquake for control". It remains, as you note, a fantastic debuff patch.
If Earthquake is not one of the best powers in earth/cold, it is because those two sets are packed with fantastic powers. That said, I find it an excellent staple control, and don't find the arguments in favor of Stone Cages generally compelling. |
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
Sweetmeet, you just made my day, I don't know why I didnt think of proccing him out myself, I guess because the only guy I ever was able to was my ice/ice dom, and that was just one power. I am going to do exactly that, THANK YOU!!|
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat
Brakkus, I just saw your last post. To answer your question, Yes, eventually you will deal some damage. If you want to be able to deal damage earlier, you can do what I do and Proc EVERYTHING. Here's a list of possible places for damage procs, that when you get enough of them stacking, actually ends up killing things.
If you only take a few, they won't do much. Having a lot of them, in aoe powers, getting LOTs of different checks on all the mobs constantly is where they end up working well for you. Quicksand (slow set proc), Earthquake (Lady Grey, and knockback set proc), Sleet (Lady Grey, and Positrons), Volcanic gasses can take at least three, but I only use two and then use 4x acc/hold/recharge to get it back up as often as possible and to hold stuff,since you know... it is an aoe hold(VG - the two hold set procs are the cheapest way to go but it will take Positrons too). Stone Cages will take Trap of the Hunter and Positrons, but I usually go full set Trap of the Hunter for the high ranged defense bonus in the 6th slot. Snowstorm(slow set proc). Note: going this route is sort of expensive for a casual player, and it takes a while to get enough slots into powers so that they are both doing their jobs, and procing for you too. At level 17, just concentrate on control, and find teams you can use to do the killing(while you make them invincible). Even using these, soloing will be very slow till you get the pet. Once you get into your 40s, the aoes from the epic pools will put out a LOT of damage, and the Earth set has a Huge damage power in Seismic Smash that is also a hold!(drool), but Frost Breath and Fire Ball both do respectable damage when contained, and the foes are pre-debuffed. |
And thanks to everyone else for the responses given!
Brakkus
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The thing is, if you want stamina and a travel power (and most characters do, although you could try gambling on getting enough recharge for Heat Loss to make up the difference), you're going to drop three powers. (Two if you have the City Traveler badge, but most people don't.)|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I think we are arguing less FOR stone cages as we are arguing against not taking stone cages.
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Salt Crystals is an easy cut. I think Stone Prison is, and objections on that one seem to be pretty minimal (although it will make your early solo life a bit easier).
At that point it becomes a knife-fight between Frostworks, Stone Cages, and Snow Storm. For me, Stone Cages lost the knife fight, and I am explaining why. It is reasonable to me that for other people Frostworks or Snow Storm will get cut, but it seems frequently taken as a given that Stone Cages is not even on the table for this particular cut. I've said quite a few times that I'm not trying to argue that nobody should take Stone Cages ever. Rather I am saying that it goes with Frostworks or Snow Storm on the candidates list for the third cut and that I don't think it should be treated as the mandatory/hard-to-cut power people consider it to be - it's one of the niche powers of the set pairing.
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If you knew me, you wouldn't even have to say that. | The thing is, if you want stamina |
(Inside controller joke, don't worry it doesn't have anything to do with you or anything you've said in this thread)Yep, tight build. No argument. For me, aoe immobs are a given, especially before I start overlapping powers. I understand your argument, but I don't buy it. Just as you don't buy mine and the reason I said we'd just have to agree to disagree. If....and I stress if I were to take snow storm it would probably be at 49 anyway. And as someone that has 2 lvl 50 stormies (1 cont, 1 def) and 2 level 50 cold doms (1 cont, 1 def) I am familiar with the pluses and minuses of snowstorm. (sidenote- I'm not tooting my own horn here, just explaining that I understand the power) And like I said, I personally prefer to have an adaptable build. If you have a static team or a particular use for a character I can see placing constraints, but personally I want the toolbox to take on most if not all situations. And in that I have found more situations ingame (PVE) where having an aoe immob with -kb more helpful than the need to take down flyers. Now the argument for -recharge is legit and why I said I'd be more inclined to take it at 50 where AVs are more prevalent.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
At that point it becomes a knife-fight between Frostworks, Stone Cages, and Snow Storm. For me, Stone Cages lost the knife fight, and I am explaining why. It is reasonable to me that for other people Frostworks or Snow Storm will get cut, but it seems frequently taken as a given that Stone Cages is not even on the table for this particular cut. I've said quite a few times that I'm not trying to argue that nobody should take Stone Cages ever. Rather I am saying that it goes with Frostworks or Snow Storm on the candidates list for the third cut and that I don't think it should be treated as the mandatory/hard-to-cut power people consider it to be - it's one of the niche powers of the set pairing.
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I think what people are trying to say is it really isn't a niche power. I actually did spend a lot of time without it, so I can see an argument for skipping it. But, it is one of those powers most people take.
It's funny how public opinion has shifted on it, though. It definitely seems like lots more people hated the power a year ago, and I've been explicitly told by some team members not to use it, because of the overwhelming sound + graphics. I've always been happy to oblige since, on a team, I'm more likely to use Earthquake.
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I don't think AoE immobilizes are niche powers for all controllers. However, given that it is actively counterproductive to a staple power in the same set, and that one of the most popular uses of AoE immobilization (preventing stun/confusion wander) is fairly well covered by other powers in the set, I feel it's fair to consider Stone Cages specifically a niche power. Your mileage may vary, and apparently does.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think what people are trying to say is it really isn't a niche power. I actually did spend a lot of time without it, so I can see an argument for skipping it. But, it is one of those powers most people take.
It's funny how public opinion has shifted on it, though. It definitely seems like lots more people hated the power a year ago, and I've been explicitly told by some team members not to use it, because of the overwhelming sound + graphics. I've always been happy to oblige since, on a team, I'm more likely to use Earthquake. |
@MentalMaden, yes, an AoE immob with -kb is probably useful in more situations than a -fly, but I don't feel it's useful in more situations than an AoE -rech with -fly. It's not just AVs that -rech is useful against; large spawns of Rikti/Lost, Malta, Carnies, BP, Circle in certain level ranges, or anyone else who has a fairly high proportion of enemies that are distinguished by a single really annoying power will have the situation significantly improved by Snow Storm. With small spawns this is less likely to be an issue, though, and as always - your mileage may vary.
Edit- Ah, I think it's pointless to go back and forth on this. It only makes people seem shrill and neither of us will change the others mind. I can/did give reasons but at this point it's just seeming like we're trying to get in the last word. OP take what makes sense to you, weigh out the arguments and always feel free to ask questions here at the Controller forums. We are pretty civil people here.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
Heh, sorry. I do have a tendency not to really let this sort of thing drop.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Edit- Ah, I think it's pointless to go back and forth on this. It only makes people seem shrill and neither of us will change the others mind. I can/did give reasons but at this point it's just seeming like we're trying to get in the last word. OP take what makes sense to you, weigh out the arguments and always feel free to ask questions here at the Controller forums. We are pretty civil people here.
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Anyway yeah, Stone Cages isn't a bad power or anything, just trying to get the other side heard. Honestly if the OP had respecs to spare I'd recommend trying it both ways to see which powers he likes best, though, especially since the extra damage really does help make soloing marginally less head-against-wall before 32.
Update:
My troller is now sitting at lvl 41. I have 8 procs spread out in my powers. I open with snow storm, hit stalagmites, then follow with cages. Then VG and EQ gets laid down, with sleet intermixed and stoney attacking. I have an ae to myself, I set it at +3 enemies and set for +6, and can easily solo the mish now. EASILY. No hastle. No fuss. No dying. Every spawn is immobb'ed, choking, bouncing, and slowed to a crawl. It is sooooo nice to finally be able to solo and kill things efficiently. I rotate every attack (fossilize and nem staff) against the lts so they roughly all die together while stoney kills them too. I keep stoney shielded with the good ole ice shields. I gain just shy of a 1/3 bar of experience per spawn at lvl 41. It takes less than a minute to kill a spawn, and is finally very rewarding. On teams, this alt shuts em down, and I like that.
Thank you all for the input!!!!
Brakkus
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I case this wasn't corrected earlier..you meant "arctic fog" |
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
...With arctic air for stealth, your controller can be positioned appropriately to open with stalagmites or when soloing you can move on by mobs...
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perma jump is ---> /up 1
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I have to agree completely with Local Man here, on every point he listed actually. Stone Cages offers a lot of benefits to a team and to a skilled Controller.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I'm in the camp where I prefer to have Stone Cages over two slows. For lots of reasons: (a) Stone Cages have -Fly which will handle the problem the majority of the time . . . plus there is -fly in Quicksand, so once they are on the ground, you can keep them there. (b) Stone Cages sets up Containment, as others have mentioned. (c) Stone Cages + Stalagmites act as a hold. While the Slows reduce the movement of the stunned foes, some often do wander out of the AoE of the slow. (d) Stone Cages is your fastest recharging control power. You can fire it off every few seconds. Add a proc or two, and that damage can add up. On the other hand, the Slows will only fire off procs every 10 seconds, and you don't have as many procs available. (e) Stone Cages + a corner to hide behind is just as good as an AoE hold . .. up every few seconds and able to be made perma at LEVEL 4! (f) There is a significant value to -Knockback . . . depending upon your teammates. Just try teaming with a Peacebringer. And if you realize that the -knockback only works for 12 seconds, you can use that to your advantage, since the Immob continues long past then. Cast Stone Cages, and just as the 12 seconds starts to run out, you can then use Earthquake or Freezing Rain a/k/a Sleet to make them bounce in place. (g) People complain that Stone Cages conflicts with Earthquake and the knockdown in Sleet/Freezing Rain -- just don't cast it. Too many people think that Stone Cages has to be spammed, but it can be used stragically. (h) Personally, I like the graphics of huge stone things locking down foes. It also makes the foes easy to see.
While there are some benefits to having both slows, I think the better choice is to take Stone Cages. The combo of Stalagmites+Stone Cages is just too good and fast as a "First Strike" control. Both Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses take a few seconds to work on the entire group, but Stalagmites is your only "instant control" AoE power. |
Also in the first reply Tex mentioned taking hasten and as a result, super speed. I'm not disagreeing its useful, but it is by no means compulsory. The higher level you get and the more recharge and global recharge you use, the more its effect is diminished. So unless you are going for something like perma PA, its something you can safely avoid it without losing much. Most recharges are quite competetive without it also. YMMV.
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Sounds like you are having a blast ;-)
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Originally Posted by Brakkus
Update:
My troller is now sitting at lvl 41. I have 8 procs spread out in my powers. I open with snow storm, hit stalagmites, then follow with cages. Then VG and EQ gets laid down, with sleet intermixed and stoney attacking. I have an ae to myself, I set it at +3 enemies and set for +6, and can easily solo the mish now. EASILY. No hastle. No fuss. No dying. Every spawn is immobb'ed, choking, bouncing, and slowed to a crawl. It is sooooo nice to finally be able to solo and kill things efficiently. I rotate every attack (fossilize and nem staff) against the lts so they roughly all die together while stoney kills them too. I keep stoney shielded with the good ole ice shields. I gain just shy of a 1/3 bar of experience per spawn at lvl 41. It takes less than a minute to kill a spawn, and is finally very rewarding. On teams, this alt shuts em down, and I like that. Thank you all for the input!!!! Brakkus |
I don't get angry at other players who immobilize on my earthquake patches; if someone's tactics involve a lot of tossing out immobilization (as I've said, immob is pretty handy to Fire controllers for Hot Feet, and Plant trollers can hardly avoid mass immobilization between Carrion Creepers, the Flytrap, and the boosted damage on Roots) then I'll just cut back on the earthquakes when they're laying down their immob patches and use my other powers instead. With two controllers, you can afford to do that. On the other hand, if someone's throwing out huge amounts of immobilization, I'm not sure how adding Stone Cages would synergize with that. Clearly this guy's got the immobilization part of the deal pretty well covered. Is the idea to make an enemy extra-immobile?