"Terminator" sounds like the sort of tankmage that people are clamoring for and nobody can figure out how to balance. My thoughts on such a tankmage would involve its primary not to be a Blast set (which is what most people think of for Ranged) but an Assault set, like the Dominators have - there are three ATs with Blast sets already and only one with Assault, so it would help the class to be unique, and since Assault sets include melee attacks as well as ranged ones it would work well with an AT that has a defensive set to help mitigate the melee damage they would be taking.
However, even with that in mind, it'd be a real pickle balancing this to not step on the toes of Blasters and Scrappers. Perhaps having the Defiance bar be pretty much necessary for you to start doing good damage would help - Scrappers have high damage all the time and are better off not being damaged, so their survivability would remain better. A Terminator missing a significant chunk of HP could start to do Blaster- and Scrapper-level damage, maybe, but definitely not right off the bat, and never to the level of a Brute with a full fury bar. This could be interesting in terms of play decisions, as well, since you would be switching your focus from defense to offense and back again in fights much more significantly than other classes - use your self-heal from your secondary, for isntance, and your damage drops... but you avoid dying. Could be interesting.
BRAWLER
Symbol: fist smacking into palm, brown background
Sound Effect: A series of thuds and grunts of pain
Hit Points: Medium
Damage: Medium
Primary: Melee (on par with Tankers)
Secondary: Self Buff/Enemy Debuff (on par with Defenders but functionally like Invincibility)
Special Ability: Throwdown – Adds a percentage chance for each attack to deliver its damage as a short range AoE attack. In the case of natural AoE attacks the Throwdown effect will add a slight damage increase.
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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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The way I see it, they're differently-abled Brutes who trade hit points for range. That's a simple enough balance, isn't it? If you grant that Brutes aren't overpowered, then Terminators shouldn't be either.|
Originally Posted by flashrains
"Terminator" sounds like the sort of tankmage that people are clamoring for and nobody can figure out how to balance. My thoughts on such a tankmage would involve its primary not to be a Blast set (which is what most people think of for Ranged) but an Assault set, like the Dominators have - there are three ATs with Blast sets already and only one with Assault, so it would help the class to be unique, and since Assault sets include melee attacks as well as ranged ones it would work well with an AT that has a defensive set to help mitigate the melee damage they would be taking.
However, even with that in mind, it'd be a real pickle balancing this to not step on the toes of Blasters and Scrappers. Perhaps having the Defiance bar be pretty much necessary for you to start doing good damage would help - Scrappers have high damage all the time and are better off not being damaged, so their survivability would remain better. A Terminator missing a significant chunk of HP could start to do Blaster- and Scrapper-level damage, maybe, but definitely not right off the bat, and never to the level of a Brute with a full fury bar. This could be interesting in terms of play decisions, as well, since you would be switching your focus from defense to offense and back again in fights much more significantly than other classes - use your self-heal from your secondary, for isntance, and your damage drops... but you avoid dying. Could be interesting. |
I find most balance complaints are just hot air - everything's situational, and the situation changes all the time.
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The way I see it, they are pretty much Spiders and Kheldians, without the constricting concepts.|
Originally Posted by Far_Realm
The way I see it, they're differently-abled Brutes who trade hit points for range. That's a simple enough balance, isn't it? If you grant that Brutes aren't overpowered, then Terminators shouldn't be either.
I find most balance complaints are just hot air - everything's situational, and the situation changes all the time. |
Seriously. Spiders and PBs (less so WS's) are, when you get down to it, Blast or Assaul primary, Shields secondary. The only limit is the storyline and theme.
As someone who really wanted to make a DP/SR character, /Signed
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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And the funny part about all this...all people do is complain about Dual Pistols lackluster DPS, when most Scrappers out DPS it.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The way I see it, they are pretty much Spiders and Kheldians, without the constricting concepts.
Seriously. Spiders and PBs (less so WS's) are, when you get down to it, Blast or Assaul primary, Shields secondary. The only limit is the storyline and theme. As someone who really wanted to make a DP/SR character, /Signed |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
My suggestions for the Tankmage balancing?
Give them low to medium hit points. Make them squishies with a little bit of defense/damage resistance. Let Range be their primary form of Mitigation. Ranged Attacks do Less Damage (I'll put it in bold and capital letters, too, for those who don't get it the first time) LESS DAMAGE than Melee attacks, at least when it comes to NPCs. This was a big part of Balancing blasters against the other archetypes. A Blaster can dish out huge amounts of damage out of melee range where she would normally be a greasy stain on the floor in seconds.
Giving this "Terminator" AT both Ranged attacks and defenses means they'll take less damage, on average, than scrappers. Even if they had crappy defenses (1/3 of Tanker values, rather than 1/2) they'd -still- be better off than your average Scrapper for incoming DPS to Regeneration ratios.
So. Crappy Defenses, or defenses based almost solely on positional defenses and focusing in on Melee paired with low HP. Sure you've got less of a chance to be hit in melee, but dare you risk your squishiness? I'd also suggest adding the Blaster secondaries with damaging powers into this AT's powerset options. A few hard controls in place of damaging attacks could go a long way to making this AT more palatable.
As for The Brawler.
"Like invincibility" how? Point Blank AoE buffs and debuffs? I like it in theory, until you get to the "Dark" Brawler. The Dark Brawler has 2 PBAoE debuffs, one fore speed/damres, one for accuracy. This means enemies outside of the Brawler's melee reach are unaffected by his damage mitigation and, instead, are able to slaughter him from afar. Might be a balance issue you need to handle.
Puppet Master: Great AT Idea, I'd give them Control similar in effectiveness to Doms, however. It's similar to the Mastermind in it's use of damage-mitigation as a secondary but far more active in it's application, giving the player a greater sense of control over his fights. The inherent could not function, based on how we understand the game to work. I'd replace it with a "Domination" bar that, when full, can be discharged into a PBAoE buff for your pets and your pets only.
Benefactor: Neat concept. Again, I'd strongly urge you to use both the Manipulation -and- assault sets for the primary.
The inherent would need a -lot- of work to function. Basically you'd have to catalogue every buff that every buffing set has, then add a descriptor of it's primary power (dam res, dambuff, accbuff, etc) for the inherent to play off of. otherwise I could see it working in a manner similar to how the current Blaster inherent functions. However this -does- damage the abilities of Debuffers, as their inherent would be functionally useless. My suggestion for that would be to apply reversed debuffs. If you're debuffing your foes Accuracy, buff your own base Defense. Debuffing Damage, buff your own damage resistance.
Vanguard: I don't like it.
Again, RANGED ATTACKS DO LESS DAMAGE, so putting a buffer with no self-defense into melee seems foolhardy at best. At least the debuffer had an AoE of protection...
Trickster: No thank you. I'd rather see a Shapeshifting AT get shapeshifting powers rather than having a signature ability tacked onto the secondary of an AT.
Hope this helps.
-Rachel-
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Thanks for the input! A good way to balance for something like this would be to add some positional defense passives to the lower tier of the secondary power sets that could be built upon or augmented by toggles in the later tiers. Tier 1 could grant melee defense and low level smashing/lethal resistance and Tier 2 could offer ranged and AoE defense.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
As for The Brawler.
"Like invincibility" how? Point Blank AoE buffs and debuffs? I like it in theory, until you get to the "Dark" Brawler. The Dark Brawler has 2 PBAoE debuffs, one fore speed/damres, one for accuracy. This means enemies outside of the Brawler's melee reach are unaffected by his damage mitigation and, instead, are able to slaughter him from afar. Might be a balance issue you need to handle. |
This would tie into the vision of Brawlers being the group fighting experts and having the natural ability to turn their enemies numbers and the push of battle to their own advantage.
>
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
All too happy to offer positive and negative criticisms which further the process of perfecting suggestions!
-Rachel-
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I gave them medium hit points. I want them to be able to take damage at least as well as a Scrapper. It seems to me that too much is made of the protection from damage range gives you. This may be true at the lowest of levels when you're fighting Skulls and Hellions, but there are lots of enemies who do vicious damage at range (Nemesis, Longbow, and the Redcaps come to mind).|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
My suggestions for the Tankmage balancing?
Give them low to medium hit points. Make them squishies with a little bit of defense/damage resistance. Let Range be their primary form of Mitigation. Ranged Attacks do Less Damage (I'll put it in bold and capital letters, too, for those who don't get it the first time) LESS DAMAGE than Melee attacks, at least when it comes to NPCs. This was a big part of Balancing blasters against the other archetypes. A Blaster can dish out huge amounts of damage out of melee range where she would normally be a greasy stain on the floor in seconds. Giving this "Terminator" AT both Ranged attacks and defenses means they'll take less damage, on average, than scrappers. Even if they had crappy defenses (1/3 of Tanker values, rather than 1/2) they'd -still- be better off than your average Scrapper for incoming DPS to Regeneration ratios. So. Crappy Defenses, or defenses based almost solely on positional defenses and focusing in on Melee paired with low HP. Sure you've got less of a chance to be hit in melee, but dare you risk your squishiness? I'd also suggest adding the Blaster secondaries with damaging powers into this AT's powerset options. A few hard controls in place of damaging attacks could go a long way to making this AT more palatable. |
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Puppet Master: Great AT Idea, I'd give them Control similar in effectiveness to Doms, however. It's similar to the Mastermind in it's use of damage-mitigation as a secondary but far more active in it's application, giving the player a greater sense of control over his fights. The inherent could not function, based on how we understand the game to work. I'd replace it with a "Domination" bar that, when full, can be discharged into a PBAoE buff for your pets and your pets only.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Benefactor: Neat concept. Again, I'd strongly urge you to use both the Manipulation -and- assault sets for the primary.
The inherent would need a -lot- of work to function. Basically you'd have to catalogue every buff that every buffing set has, then add a descriptor of it's primary power (dam res, dambuff, accbuff, etc) for the inherent to play off of. otherwise I could see it working in a manner similar to how the current Blaster inherent functions. However this -does- damage the abilities of Debuffers, as their inherent would be functionally useless. My suggestion for that would be to apply reversed debuffs. If you're debuffing your foes Accuracy, buff your own base Defense. Debuffing Damage, buff your own damage resistance. |
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Vanguard: I don't like it.
Again, RANGED ATTACKS DO LESS DAMAGE, so putting a buffer with no self-defense into melee seems foolhardy at best. At least the debuffer had an AoE of protection... Trickster: No thank you. I'd rather see a Shapeshifting AT get shapeshifting powers rather than having a signature ability tacked onto the secondary of an AT. |
The Vanguard's Bravado ability was specifically designed to shore up its vulnerability. I also thought of giving it rapidly accelerating regeneration and recovery the more injured it got, but I thought the self-heal chance was more in keeping with the concept.
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Are you honestly so hung up on the exceptionally small number of enemies that deal roughly the same damage at range as they do in melee to ignore the fact that a vast majority of groups deal roughly 80% of the damage at range that they do in melee? Unless you're privy to some secret dev plan to make it so that all enemies deal the same damage in range and in melee, you're completely ignoring the fact that you can't design the functionality of an AT around a tiny subset of the enemies that they'll fight in game.|
Originally Posted by Far_Realm
I gave them medium hit points. I want them to be able to take damage at least as well as a Scrapper. It seems to me that too much is made of the protection from damage range gives you. This may be true at the lowest of levels when you're fighting Skulls and Hellions, but there are lots of enemies who do vicious damage at range (Nemesis, Longbow, and the Redcaps come to mind).
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Try looking at the damage that Rikti deal at range compared to what they deal in melee. Those big swords hurt way more than those energy blasts. Do the same with any one of the plethora of enemy groups that exist in game.
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| What if the mechanics worked by destroying the original enemy and summoning a clone? |
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| The Vanguard's Bravado ability was specifically designed to shore up its vulnerability. I also thought of giving it rapidly accelerating regeneration and recovery the more injured it got, but I thought the self-heal chance was more in keeping with the concept. |
To generate the first set, you could drop off the Taunt/Confront power, the BU power, and one of the low grade ST attacks from a melee set and replace them with a mez shield with thematic secondary benefit and a 2 personal survivability powers. Fire Melee could lose Taunt/Confront, BU, and Cremate, and get Fire Shield, Plasma Shield, and Healing Flames. Electrical Melee could lose Jacob's Ladder, Taunt/Confront, and BU, and get Charged Armor, Conductive Shield, and Static Shield.
To generate the second, you could drop off 2 support powers and replace them with and ST hold and an AoE immob (or, lacking that, a sleep). Empathy could lose Absorb Pain and Regeneration Aura and replace them with Dominate and Mass Hypnosis. Cold Domination could lose Snow Storm and Sleet and replace them with Block of Ice and Frostbite. A few powers would have to be made (Radiation Emission, Sonic Resonance, etc), but it's not many and the demands would be reasonably simple.
You would get thematic similarity in the melee/survivability powers (losing a bit of melee damage capability along with burst damage capability to increase survivabililty) and the control/support powers (losing a bit of support but getting a bit of control capability for when melee gets a bit too crazy). One of the big advantages of this is that most melee sets have some thematic defense set that you can pair them with (except for the weapon sets, which could probably get arbitrarily paired with Invuln or WP powers) and a good number of support sets have a similar thematic pairing for a control set, and the power switches/creation could be done in a reasonably modular manner to avoid making some sets overpowered compared to others.
By creating these new sets, you'd get a decent mix of attack powers and buff/debuff powers along with enough personal survivability to survive in melee without being too hard to kill. The AT mods would probably be along the same lines as Tanker Melee damage mods (.8 damage scalar), Controller/Corr buff/debuff mods (.75), Scrapper/Stalker personal defense mods (.75), and new heal mods to account for the higher base hp (.85 heal scalar, because heals are based off of base hp to keep them in line with Controllers/Corrs). HP would probably be the same as Blasters/Stalkers (at 50, 1204.8 base and 1606.4 max), +dam cap would be limited to the "normal" 300% of Defenders, Tankers, Controllers, Dominators, etc, and res caps would be the "normal" 75%.
If you really wanted the Benefactor, you could probably do something similar with the control/support sets that you would create for the Vanguard (nice name, btw, works very well for the intended purpose, but I'm not sure it would work considering there is already a group in game called Vanguard). Alter the Defender primaries by removing a couple support powers and replace them with an ST ranged attack and an AoE ranged attack. Radiation Emission could lose Choking Cloud and Fallout for Neutrino Bolt and Neutron Bomb. Empathy could lose Absorb Pain and Regen Aura for Mental Blast and Psychic Scream. With those sets, they'd have a decent suite of attack powers and buff/debuff powers augmented with the a couple control powers and utility powers.
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I grant that this is true at low levels and soloing, but things get nutty at high levels and in large groups. I don't have to be right about what difference there is between enemy melee versus ranged damage. The point is that Corrupter-level damage, Brute-level defenses, and medium hit points should amount to a balanced archetype. As someone implied in the previous version of this thread, the Terminator would be at its finest when it was hovering around 25% of its hit points.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Are you honestly so hung up on the exceptionally small number of enemies that deal roughly the same damage at range as they do in melee to ignore the fact that a vast majority of groups deal roughly 80% of the damage at range that they do in melee? Unless you're privy to some secret dev plan to make it so that all enemies deal the same damage in range and in melee, you're completely ignoring the fact that you can't design the functionality of an AT around a tiny subset of the enemies that they'll fight in game.
Try looking at the damage that Rikti deal at range compared to what they deal in melee. Those big swords hurt way more than those energy blasts. Do the same with any one of the plethora of enemy groups that exist in game. |
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Originally Posted by Umbral
In order to do this, there would have to be some seriously intense codescrewery with rather large database access. Honestly, it would probably just be better to abandon that inherent altogether and focus on something else, such as some kind of buff or debuff. "Sleeper Agent" doesn't really scream Puppet Master to me, either way. Personally, I think a name like Manipulator would also be a bit more appropriate, but a lot of that comes from me wanting the devs to create a Puppets mastermind set. Maybe if the inherent were some kind of modified Loyalty that caused the pets to become hardier if they were near the player or Domination type power that increases the damage the pets deal?
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Originally Posted by Umbral
If you really wanted the Benefactor, you could probably do something similar with the control/support sets that you would create for the Vanguard (nice name, btw, works very well for the intended purpose, but I'm not sure it would work considering there is already a group in game called Vanguard). Alter the Defender primaries by removing a couple support powers and replace them with an ST ranged attack and an AoE ranged attack. Radiation Emission could lose Choking Cloud and Fallout for Neutrino Bolt and Neutron Bomb. Empathy could lose Absorb Pain and Regen Aura for Mental Blast and Psychic Scream. With those sets, they'd have a decent suite of attack powers and buff/debuff powers augmented with the a couple control powers and utility powers.
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I want the Vanguard to be pure melee (tertiary powers aside, of course). I'm thinking from the perspective of these five archetypes as the complete Roguish pentad, so with the Terminator being the only one with Ranged and Defense, and the Vanguard being the only one with Melee, I want them to specialize in those things. The Vanguard's special ability, combined with high hit points, should be what protects it in melee. Add the benefits of its buff powers to that, and it should work.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Are you honestly so hung up on the exceptionally small number of enemies that deal roughly the same damage at range as they do in melee to ignore the fact that a vast majority of groups deal roughly 80% of the damage at range that they do in melee? Unless you're privy to some secret dev plan to make it so that all enemies deal the same damage in range and in melee, you're completely ignoring the fact that you can't design the functionality of an AT around a tiny subset of the enemies that they'll fight in game.
Try looking at the damage that Rikti deal at range compared to what they deal in melee. Those big swords hurt way more than those energy blasts. Do the same with any one of the plethora of enemy groups that exist in game. |
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Originally Posted by Far_Realm
I grant that this is true at low levels and soloing, but things get nutty at high levels and in large groups. I don't have to be right about what difference there is between enemy melee versus ranged damage. The point is that Corrupter-level damage, Brute-level defenses, and medium hit points should amount to a balanced archetype. As someone implied in the previous version of this thread, the Terminator would be at its finest when it was hovering around 25% of its hit points.
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I have to agree with Umbral on this one Far Realm. At every stage of the game there are melee and ranged focused villains. By far the biggest attacks will come from melee range.
Lost Rectors, Freakshow Tanks, Warriors, Crey Tanks, Malta Tanks just to name a few.
And... you kinda have to be right about this for it to carry weight.
Edit:: I highlighted the section of your comment that I was responding to. It may not be as apparent in print as I had intended. Sorry
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Originally Posted by Biospark
And... you kinda have to be right about this for it to carry weight. |
Why? As Techbot Alpha said, a Ranged/Defense Archetype would only be a little bit different from the Kheldians we already have. If Ranged attacks really do less damage than Melee, as some have (loudly) said, so much the better. If Brutes aren't overpowered, then Terminators, with lower damage potential and fewer hit points, shouldn't be either.
I like all the ideas because this game is getting boring with all the same old ATs.
No MMORPG will ever be perfectly balanced between ATs, and I could give a damn less if they are. CoH had it best in PvP (pre Castle destroying it with PvP 2.0) because any weakness in your build could be virtually taken out with inspirations.
Nice concepts there OP, I like the Vanguard idea of buffs coming back to himself, which would allow him to take the alpha and such.
"PvP Messiah"
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Hmm I think you misunderstood what I was saying, or maybe I misunderstood the context.|
Originally Posted by Far_Realm
Why? As Techbot Alpha said, a Ranged/Defense Archetype would only be a little bit different from the Kheldians we already have. If Ranged attacks really do less damage than Melee, as some have (loudly) said, so much the better. If Brutes aren't overpowered, then Terminators, with lower damage potential and fewer hit points, shouldn't be either.
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::I have edited my prior response to highlight what part of your comment which was being responded to::
Critters in the game, for the most part, deal much more damage in melee range than at range. So any AT that can "keep" enemies at range thru a variety of powers, can reduce overall sustained damage considerably. I am not just saying this, I have done it several times to prove it to myself. I felt it was necessary to point out that this is an important factor when determining the "balance point" for a Ranged AT. Every character capable of defeating opponents "at range" can capitalize on this fact.
But we also agree more than you think. If an AT was made that had "Defense" powers (Tanker primaries, Scrapper Secondaries) and had Ranged-Based damage as its means of defeating Villains, the best way to balance this AT would be thru HPs, Defensive values, and Damage MODs. So, in effect, I agree with you that it could work, provided these factors didnt marginalize other ATs.
The real problem with this AT concept is perception.
As soon as you, me or anyone mentions pairing Defense Sets with Ranged Sets, the word "Tank-Mage" gets rolled out and visions of toons with Blaster level Damage, Scrapper level Hit points and Tanker level defense must be what people think we mean. But this is not the case with me, because I understand that game balance needs to be preserved.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Truthfully, if I was to make a Ranged/Defense (or Assault/Defense) AT, I'd have to say stick them with Stalker level Hit Points and Cap.|
Originally Posted by Far_Realm
I gave them medium hit points. I want them to be able to take damage at least as well as a Scrapper. It seems to me that too much is made of the protection from damage range gives you. This may be true at the lowest of levels when you're fighting Skulls and Hellions, but there are lots of enemies who do vicious damage at range (Nemesis, Longbow, and the Redcaps come to mind).
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You're still squishy, even if you do get to play at range, and can still easily be taken out by enemies. Unless someone decides to play the hit then run away and heal up game, and return (but anyone can play that game
)Ranged/Defense
Epics/PPP (Lvl 41 Ally Buff, Lvl 41 Melee Attack, Lvl 44 1 AOE BUFF, Lvl 44 1 Pet, Lvl 47 1 Enemy Debuff (better than current melee numbers...something that makes them WORTHWHILE in taking)
Inherent can be alot of different things, that don't cause imbalance. As well as lower damage mods than a Blaster (who as Ive said in another thread gets the better DPS when adding in the melee attacks, if I remember correctly)
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Come to think of it, we've already got ranged tanks: Masterminds. Compared to them, my Terminator would simply be trading toughness for damage.
Actually, here's an unorthodox idea: If range makes such a difference, what if the Terminator sacrificed range in partial lieu of durability or damage (i.e. 45 ft for a typical attack rather than 80)?
Actually... Now that I've looked over it a LOT...
I'd suggest giving the Terminator the following attributes.
Ranged Damage: As Dominator
Melee Damage: As Dominator
Defenses: As Blaster
Hit points: As Peacebringer/Warshade/Widow/Soldier
Buff/Debuff Effectiveness: As Blaster (for temporary powers and Epics, if needed)
The melee damage scale of a dominator is 1.05 as compared to a scrapper's 1.25 which gives them less melee power. They can make up for this to some degree by having ranged damage of .95 as compared to a blaster's 1.25
Now with this damage base they out-damage Corruptors at a standstill. However Corruptors are able to buff themselves (Pain Dom) and their ally's damage output. Using the Assault Sets most Terminators won't be able to increse their own power even for spiking damage. The exceptions are Electric (Build Up), Fire (Fiery Embrace), and Thorns (Aim). The others have Power Boost or an End/HP recovery tool. So on average a "Terminator" will not do damage comparable to a Scrapper (thanks to crits, enhancing, and build-up) but will do good damage at range and in melee.
As for the "Blaster" defenses. this method cuts off about 5% of the AT's overall defense as compared to a scrapper. Now I don't mean the "Defense" variable, but rather all defenses. Mez protection, defense, damage resistance, etc. They would still use the Defensive sets available to scrappers/stalkers/brutes/tanks but would get -slightly- less benefit from it than your average scrapper (literally 7% Damage Resistance compared to a scrapper's 7.5%)
I settled in on the Hit Points based on the discussion of Tankmagery. And it's true. The EATs and VEATs both use defenses with ranged and melee attacks. However it should be noted that EATs gain no mez protection outside of their respective Dwarf forms. The Soldiers gain a baseline of mag 2 protection, early on, and can replace it with a mag 4 later, if they choose. They also gain only two defense powers and a single damage resistance power. When they upgrade they can take another damage resistance power (which upgrades their mez protection) and have the option of gaining further DR (Crab) or Def (Bane). The proposed class would have far more defensive powers than a Soldier or Widow, more mez protection than a PB or WS, and only SLIGHTLY lower numbers overall. Ergo similar Hit Points are an acceptable tradeoff.
For the Buff/Debuff effectiveness I looked to the classes and their use of powers beyond their normal ken. A tanker deals less damage at ranged, for example, so a Terminator should offer less support. in this case I looked to the Corruptor and aimed slightly below.
All classes are now similarly stationed on control power effectiveness. They simply don't have them.
Would these numbers be acceptable to all?
-Rachel-
Yes please
Join the Advocates of Fate on Infinity today!
@Inconclusive
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The rest I can sort of agree with, but this I just can't go for, if for no reason other than because THIS is the probably the primary reason I gave up on Kheldians forever and ever. I got two-shotted one too many times and ran around in constant, abject fear for my life, so I just can't agree to this. I don't want Tanker health, but at LEAST Blaster or Blaster-like health is the lowest I'd go for.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I settled in on the Hit Points based on the discussion of Tankmagery.
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I actually have a problem with low hit points values in general, and again, is one of the reasons I gave up on Dominators in general. Any AT which is expected to enter combat, especially melee combat, ought to have more base hit points than that. I realise Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos have similar values, but from what I've played with these values, it just doesn't work. Not for me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying (Blaster Defense? Buffs/Debuffs and Melee?), but the parts I do understand, I like.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Actually... Now that I've looked over it a LOT...
I'd suggest giving the Terminator the following attributes. Ranged Damage: As Dominator Melee Damage: As Dominator Defenses: As Blaster Hit points: As Peacebringer/Warshade/Widow/Soldier Buff/Debuff Effectiveness: As Blaster (for temporary powers and Epics, if needed) The melee damage scale of a dominator is 1.05 as compared to a scrapper's 1.25 which gives them less melee power. They can make up for this to some degree by having ranged damage of .95 as compared to a blaster's 1.25 Now with this damage base they out-damage Corruptors at a standstill. However Corruptors are able to buff themselves (Pain Dom) and their ally's damage output. Using the Assault Sets most Terminators won't be able to increse their own power even for spiking damage. The exceptions are Electric (Build Up), Fire (Fiery Embrace), and Thorns (Aim). The others have Power Boost or an End/HP recovery tool. So on average a "Terminator" will not do damage comparable to a Scrapper (thanks to crits, enhancing, and build-up) but will do good damage at range and in melee. As for the "Blaster" defenses. this method cuts off about 5% of the AT's overall defense as compared to a scrapper. Now I don't mean the "Defense" variable, but rather all defenses. Mez protection, defense, damage resistance, etc. They would still use the Defensive sets available to scrappers/stalkers/brutes/tanks but would get -slightly- less benefit from it than your average scrapper (literally 7% Damage Resistance compared to a scrapper's 7.5%) I settled in on the Hit Points based on the discussion of Tankmagery. And it's true. The EATs and VEATs both use defenses with ranged and melee attacks. However it should be noted that EATs gain no mez protection outside of their respective Dwarf forms. The Soldiers gain a baseline of mag 2 protection, early on, and can replace it with a mag 4 later, if they choose. They also gain only two defense powers and a single damage resistance power. When they upgrade they can take another damage resistance power (which upgrades their mez protection) and have the option of gaining further DR (Crab) or Def (Bane). The proposed class would have far more defensive powers than a Soldier or Widow, more mez protection than a PB or WS, and only SLIGHTLY lower numbers overall. Ergo similar Hit Points are an acceptable tradeoff. For the Buff/Debuff effectiveness I looked to the classes and their use of powers beyond their normal ken. A tanker deals less damage at ranged, for example, so a Terminator should offer less support. in this case I looked to the Corruptor and aimed slightly below. All classes are now similarly stationed on control power effectiveness. They simply don't have them. Would these numbers be acceptable to all? -Rachel- |
Medium hit points, better-than-Corrupter damage, and insignificantly-inferior-to-Scrappers/Brutes defense, almost exactly what my original idea was.
Buffs as tertiary powers is an unexpected twist - do any of the currently extant archetypes even get those? I know there are some self-buffs, but no buff-others - or are self-buffs all you were talking about?
That said, my last proposal still stands: Wouldn't it be interesting if we could give the Terminator better defenses and/or damage in exchange for inferior RANGE?
Also, just so you're aware, I was thinking the Terminator should be able to play the part of "tank" - for example, I imagined their Ranged powersets would have Aim (or something else, for the sets that don't have that) replaced with Taunt. The Vanguard would get Confront.
Taunt + Nova = funny
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In one of my posts I categorized Buffs/Debuffs as one sub-division called "Support", and did not give Blasters any credit for having this in their "additional capabilties".|
Originally Posted by Far_Realm
Buffs as tertiary powers is an unexpected twist - do any of the currently extant archetypes even get those? I know there are some self-buffs, but no buff-others - or are self-buffs all you were talking about?
That said, my last proposal still stands: Wouldn't it be interesting if we could give the Terminator better defenses and/or damage in exchange for inferior RANGE? |
My definition of "Support" powers is anything that benefits others as well as yourself.
With that in mind, there are powers already available to Blasters that would fall under this category, such as "Shiver" or "Hot Feet". But they are not predominant.
What I guess that I am saying is that any powerset or group of powersets that the Devs would come up with would have select powers which will "break" the rules. If current Blasters are Ranged with Control and Melee thrown in, thats a generalization that takes all sets into consideration. If you change this to Ranged with Support powers and Melee thrown in (as a generalization again), then you have a similar but different AT altogether.
Having a significant number of "support" type powers in the secondary though would force the Ranged AND Melee components to be adjusted down to Corruptor/Tanker levels of damage for balance. This may not be what you envisioned, however.
As far as reduced range. I dont think it would make much difference. My favorite Blast set is Energy and Power Burst has a reduced Range. Bottom Line, hovering at 40ft or 60ft plays the same. The melee baddies cannot reach me, but I can touch them.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Not to be flip, but I think the reason you got two-shotted as a Kheldian is because of those damned quantum weapons. I feel your pain - but I love Dominators!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The rest I can sort of agree with, but this I just can't go for, if for no reason other than because THIS is the probably the primary reason I gave up on Kheldians forever and ever. I got two-shotted one too many times and ran around in constant, abject fear for my life, so I just can't agree to this. I don't want Tanker health, but at LEAST Blaster or Blaster-like health is the lowest I'd go for.
I actually have a problem with low hit points values in general, and again, is one of the reasons I gave up on Dominators in general. Any AT which is expected to enter combat, especially melee combat, ought to have more base hit points than that. I realise Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos have similar values, but from what I've played with these values, it just doesn't work. Not for me. |
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I envisioned Terminators as Ranged/Defense - no Melee or Control whatsoever barring tertiary powers.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
In one of my posts I categorized Buffs/Debuffs as one sub-division called "Support", and did not give Blasters any credit for having this in their "additional capabilties".
My definition of "Support" powers is anything that benefits others as well as yourself. With that in mind, there are powers already available to Blasters that would fall under this category, such as "Shiver" or "Hot Feet". But they are not predominant. What I guess that I am saying is that any powerset or group of powersets that the Devs would come up with would have select powers which will "break" the rules. If current Blasters are Ranged with Control and Melee thrown in, thats a generalization that takes all sets into consideration. If you change this to Ranged with Support powers and Melee thrown in (as a generalization again), then you have a similar but different AT altogether. Having a significant number of "support" type powers in the secondary though would force the Ranged AND Melee components to be adjusted down to Corruptor/Tanker levels of damage for balance. This may not be what you envisioned, however. |
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Originally Posted by Biospark
As far as reduced range. I dont think it would make much difference. My favorite Blast set is Energy and Power Burst has a reduced Range. Bottom Line, hovering at 40ft or 60ft plays the same. The melee baddies cannot reach me, but I can touch them.
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If nothing else, half range means it only takes half the time for melee attackers to charge you.
I originally posted this under Archetypes & Powers General Discussion, and someone pointed me to here.
With Going Rogue coming out, I just thought I'd share my ideas for new "roguish" Archetypes.
Yes, I'm aware I won't be seeing them implemented anytime soon :P
TERMINATOR
Symbol: head-on view of a blast, gold background
Sound Effect: boom
Hit Points: Medium
Damage: High
Primary: Ranged (on par with Corrupters)
Secondary: Defense (on par with Brutes)
Special Ability: Bloody, Bold and Resolute – the Terminator deals more damage the more injured it is (the original Blaster Defiance, essentially)
PUPPETMASTER
Symbol: three spirals arranged in triangle, dark blue background
Sound Effect: theremin
Hit Points: Low
Damage: Medium
Primary: Summon (just like Masterminds, obviously)
Secondary: Control (on par with Controllers)
Special Ability: Sleeper Agent – long-cooldown power can turn one unnamed enemy minion, lieutenant, or boss into an ally; always works on minions, chance of failure against lieutenants and bosses
BENEFACTOR
Symbol: open hand, light grey background
Sound Effect: droning voices
Hit Points: Medium
Damage: Medium
Primary: Support (AKA the Manipulations that Blasters have as their Secondaries)
Secondary: Buff (on par with Defenders)
Special Ability: Karma – when the Benefactor targets an ally with a buff, the Benefactor gains a bonus to damage resistance; when it targets an enemy with a debuff, the damage it deals is increased.
VANGUARD
Symbol: banner, red background
Sound Effect: horns
Hit Points: High
Damage: High
Primary: Melee (on par with Scrappers)
Secondary: Buff (on par with Corrupters)
Special Ability: Bravado – the Vanguard's attacks have a chance to cause a heal self effect (same chance as a Scrapper's Critical Hit chance); if above 80% hit points, the Vanguard will receive a temporary cumulative resistance buff instead.
TRICKSTER
Symbol: chaos star, purple background
Sound Effect: insane laughter
Hit Points: Low
Damage: High
Primary: Control (on par with Dominators)
Secondary: Wild Card (a little bit of everything - ranged, melee, defense, buff, summon, and especially shapeshifting, a la Kheldians, and novel ways to cause chaos)
Special Ability: Chaos – the Trickster's attacks inflict one of any number of random secondary effects on targets, in addition to the attack's normal effects (from a programmer's perspective, this would work the same way as the Tarot Card buff)
What do you think? Any ideas of your own?