Blessing of the Zephyr defense decrease
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-04-14 06:12 in Player Questions
There is an official thread for this, and it has been hashed and rehashed and un-hashed and re-rehashed, derailed and brought back on topic... please go there and post about it. You're wasting space in PQ. >:(
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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See, I personally have a build that IS affected by the change. I have a Broadsword/Dark Armor that is currently softcapped to all positions by using BotZ in Combat Jumping and Super Jump. Once the change goes live he will no longer be softcapped. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I am not really affected by the change personally but I know plenty of people that have shown me their builds and will be. Going from a botz oriented build to a differently oriented build is not a minor thing.
If you have the max slotting of it, you have 5 sets at three pieces each. Thats 15 IOs that need to be pulled. Then you have to get your character where you want them to be. You have to remove or dump other sets that you have slotted, and then build to what you actually want. Your mileage may very on what you want to take out or keep for your new concept. Just for example if you want to go from botz to smash lethal defense, your build completely changes. If you are going from defense to high recharge, high regen, or high damage, its equally big. My own feeling is that Botz wasn't overpowered. The level of performance it provided could and still can be achieved by other means. It just provided a different way to get there. |
It isn't a huge deal for me on that character, as I will still have 40% defense to those two positions, it's just annoying because I don't really have any reasonable options to replace the lost defense.
But....I'm not complaining about it because I happen to agree with the reasoning for the change. The set provided far too much for the required investment. The thing is, it STILL provides the same thing, just not as much of it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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We will have to agree to disagree about the number of builds that can use Botz five times. The only tangible evidence on that is Castle's statement that it was becoming too heavily used and stacked.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Very, VERY few builds have enough powers to use BotZ 5 times. Most can only fit it in twice. That's 6 IOs that need to be swapped out, IF you don't want the bonus that it will still be providing. Even if you can use it three times, that's still enough that one respec will cover you.
BotZ's benefits could be achieved by other means, that's true. However, to get there required a much more substantial investment in slots. THAT was the problem. Not that you couldn't get there, but that it was so much cheaper to do with BotZ. As someone else pointed out, to get there using other sets, you needed a 6-slotted power and a 5-slotted power. That was 9 additional slots on powers, as compared to the 2 that you needed for BotZ. That doesn't seem a little imbalanced to you? The Devs aren't being unreasonable here, and I'm sorry that you feel that way, but it's not going to likely change their opinion that a respec is the only thing you're going to get. |
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Insulting people didn't need to be done there, though. Instead, you chose to do so, and make it so that people are less likely to agree with you. Go you!
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EDIT: actually, nevermind. I read the post wrong.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
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You mean Castle, one of the group of people, that has direct access to the metrics (i.e. datamining) to back that statement up? That Castle? Seems a fairly strong tangible statement to me, TBH. And obviously one he based the decision on to make the change.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
We will have to agree to disagree about the number of builds that can use Botz five times. The only tangible evidence on that is Castle's statement that it was becoming too heavily used and stacked.
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--Rad
/whereami:
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You realize, that statement is at worst weakly supporting my position that many people will be affected ?|
Originally Posted by Radionuclide
You mean Castle, one of the group of people, that has direct access to the metrics (i.e. datamining) to back that statement up? That Castle? Seems a fairly strong tangible statement to me, TBH. And obviously one he based the decision on to make the change.
--Rad |
And please don't call it datamining. Executing a query on a database is not datamining. Its like someone squinting at a photograph saying they are doing image processing.
That much defense to two positions from three slots is totally out of order and the fact that it took the devs a long time to correct doesn't mean the fix isn't necessary. Someone posted elsewhere that it takes eleven slots from two separate sets to match the bonuses from three slots worth of BotZ. How anyone can say that isn't out of whack is beyond me.
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This couldn't be truer. Having lived through I don't even know how many changes to how many power sets, it's always the same complaints of how unfair it all is. Yet, here we are, still superpowered after all the power set changes, global defense reduction, enhancement diversification, and the like. People are gonna rework their builds, lose some global recharge or whatever to make up the defense, and carry on. It's not the end of the world.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
People tend to think that the "make things stronger" changes are theirs by right, and the "make them weaker" changes are abominations that should be destroyed.
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I don't disagree that a lot of people will be affected. I was arguing your point that many people would be affected by it to the degree that a single respec could fix.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You realize, that statement is at worst weakly supporting my position that many people will be affected ?
And please don't call it datamining. Executing a query on a database is not datamining. Its like someone squinting at a photograph saying they are doing image processing. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Botz gives no accuracy, no recharge, no health, no regen, no + damage, no recovery, /slot my god its underpowered.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
That much defense to two positions from three slots is totally out of order and the fact that it took the devs a long time to correct doesn't mean the fix isn't necessary. Someone posted elsewhere that it takes eleven slots from two separate sets to match the bonuses from three slots worth of BotZ. How anyone can say that isn't out of whack is beyond me.
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When you have 11 slots that give you a bunch of things, you cant compare that legitimately to 6 slots that give you 2 things, on the basis of those 2 things alone.
You also have to consider where those slots go and what the underlying enhancement is doing.
Do you really really think that improving the jump speed of combat jumping is comparable to enhancing the damage a blast does, or a melee attack ?
You might be able to make an argument that BotZ is overpowered by coming up with some quantification of the contribution that bonuses contribute to combat effectiveness and survivability then showing that set is out of line. But I doubt it. Just by looking at the other defense sets and the uniques zephyr is somewere between the two.
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But you're not slotting it for Acc/Rech/Health/Regen/Damage/Recovery.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Botz gives no accuracy, no recharge, no health, no regen, no + damage, no recovery, /slot my god its underpowered.
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You're slotting for defense. Outside of the -KB IO, that's really about the only reason anyone slotted them in the first place. Cheap (slot-count-wise) defense.
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Lets make it real simple. You have a restaurant, they offer a combination meal and ala carte selections. The combination meals offer a variety of things at an over all lower price, the ala carte selections offer single things at a lower total price but more in actual cost.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
But you're not slotting it for Acc/Rech/Health/Regen/Damage/Recovery.
You're slotting for defense. Outside of the -KB IO, that's really about the only reason anyone slotted them in the first place. Cheap (slot-count-wise) defense. |
Arguing botz is too much is like arguing ala carte is underpriced Actually its considerably worse than that. but that is the drift.
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Almost every person with half a brain recognized how powerful BotZ was when it came out, and said as much.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
As to being fairly clearly broken not so much.
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The others didn't say anything either because they didn't care, or because they wanted to keep a broken thing going as long as possible.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I've heard rumors out there of builds that have actually gone as far as to solo AV's and GM's.... without ever having equipped a single BotZ enhancement! I'm so confused! All this arguing about how OP it was, and yet somehow players still managed to walk the fine line between godly and casual without it... I know, I know, the difference between 48% ranged/AoE defense and 45% is just staggering in PG builds.
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Well, that's just too darn bad.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
2. Why should he get a refund ? Well he spent time and effort building a character that would use the IOs in good faith.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus