SR Scaling Resists question
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2010-04-10 21:45 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
If you have all three passives, the amount of DR you get is equal to (60 - Your Health %) / 3 * the number of passives you have
So at 30% health with all three passives:
(60-30) / 3 * 3 = 30% DR
At 30% health with 1 passive:
(60-30) / 3 * 1 = 10% DR
Be well, people of CoH.
That's not much for resists, but it's decent enough in a pinch and with enough HP, I suppose.
Thanks for the help!
It's not bad for S/L if you layer Tough on top of it. They couldn't make it too crazy, because SR's niche is that it's ludicrously easy to softcap it and defense debuffs mostly just bounce off of you with the caveat that whatever gets through will hurt.
I once thought SR was so great, it couldn't get any better. Then I played it on a Brute, and it was way better. On a Tank it would be amazing. I want a SR Tank.
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That's probably why SR isn't being ported over to tanks =P|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
I once thought SR was so great, it couldn't get any better. Then I played it on a Brute, and it was way better. On a Tank it would be amazing. I want a SR Tank.
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Either that or they'd have to take a nerf bat to the set first. *shrug*
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Well, if they straight ported SR to Tanks, they would have 40% def to all with SOs alone. Slotted CJ would put them 1.1% away from the softcap. While that is (so far) an acceptable goal for an IO build, that is a bit too strong for a plain SO build.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
That's probably why SR isn't being ported over to tanks =P
Either that or they'd have to take a nerf bat to the set first. *shrug* |
I believe Arcana pointed this out before, but it would make SRs with Tough (assuming the passive resists get scaled up due to AT mods) behave very strangely against s/l mobs. An SR's effective health would steadily drop until ~55-60% health. As their health drops below that, their effective health increases...
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HP% Res% Effective HP% 100 23.4 130.55 95 23.4 124.02 90 23.4 117.49 85 23.4 110.97 80 23.4 104.44 75 23.4 97.91 70 23.4 91.38 65 23.4 84.86 60 23.4 78.33 55 30.07 78.65 50 36.73 79.03 45 43.4 79.51 40 50.07 80.11 35 56.73 80.89 30 63.4 81.97 25 70.07 83.52 20 76.73 85.96 15 83.4 90.36 10 90 100 5 90 50 4 90 40 3 90 30 2 90 20 1 90 10 0 90 0
If SR is broken on a tank, then defense itself and the entire game's balance is broken.
Maybe it is. Would SR on a tank be good? Sure. No doubt about it. But the SR tank will still have crappy damage output, issues with tohit buffs and autohit attacks, will suck until level 22 and SOs like all SR users, and due to all the aggro management, getting hit a LOT even softcapped just by the number of those rolling that magic 5%.
Tanks got shields, they should get SR.
Be well, people of CoH.
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The entire problem of the def/res mechanics is that they stack linearly with non-linear results. Going from 25% def to 30% def or going from 40% to 45% def is only an increase of 5% def for both, but the results vary wildly (25% more survivability vs 100% more). (I know you know this, Bill.)|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
If SR is broken on a tank, then defense itself and the entire game's balance is broken.
Maybe it is. Would SR on a tank be good? Sure. No doubt about it. But the SR tank will still have crappy damage output, issues with tohit buffs and autohit attacks, will suck until level 22 and SOs like all SR users, and due to all the aggro management, getting hit a LOT even softcapped just by the number of those rolling that magic 5%. Tanks got shields, they should get SR. |
There are various ways this could be prevented, either by diminishing returns on buffs, lower def caps for different ATs, or different mechanics altogether.*
SR's balance problem stems from the fact it relies very heavily on defense. I wouldn't call it broken on a Scrapper at all. However, when scaled up to Tanker levels (40% def), it becomes far stronger than it should be with SOs alone. Of course, because it relies so heavily on defense, it doesn't have nearly as much room to grow with IOs compared to other sets. For example, which would you trust to take more abuse, a soft capped SR Tank or a soft capped Invuln Tank?
Using an F-Zero analogy, SR Tankers would be this:
And other sets (Invuln, Shield, etc) are this:
Tanker SR's peak isn't the problem; it's that the peak comes too soon/easily (SOs).
* I'm not supporting any of these ideas, mind you. I'm just showing how things could be modified.
[edit: Btw, take a look at how much defense most sets sport with just SOs, regardless of AT. I don't think any set offers much more than 30% def out of the box. (EA has 32% energy def.) That is pretty much where the mitigation scaling from defense gets silly. Also, iirc, pushing an enemy under 20% tohit chance is where the streak breaker turns skyrockets to 100 misses in a row.]
A Shield Tank with 3 defense SOs in all his shields and 3 defense SOs in Hover, Combat Jumping, and Weave has 44% defense to all positions. He also (assuming Tough and his resist powers are slotted up) has over 46% S/L resist and 23% resist to all else but Psi. Plus they get a -damage aura that boosts their own damage. A SR Tank would be able to get the same defense without Hover or Weave but would have much lower resists and no aura. When you consider how easy Tanker Shield Defense is to softcap with Weave and a handful of IOs I really don't see a problem with SR being cappable on SOs alone since it has almost nothing but defense.
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And let's not forget that a kat/sr scrapper can hit the softcap to melee at level... 8.
Divine Avalanche can doublestack out of the box without any enhancements. There's 30% right there. FF with 3 TOs is around 16%.
Done. Softcapped to melee. With TOs.
In other words, I just can't buy this argument that the peak doesn't matter. Will Tank SR peak a lot earlier? Yes. And then it hits a wall while the other sets catch up.
Be well, people of CoH.
Okay, for comparisons sake, let's state the minimum criteria a build has to satisfy:
- High defense
- Status protection
- Taunt aura
- Each toggle needs 1 end reduc (sans CJ)
So counting extra utility powers for this (True Grit, Shield Charge, etc).
Super Reflexes
- 7 powers for defense (SR+CJ), 3 slots each, 2 in CJ
- 1 power for status protection, 3 slots (no Quickness)
Total: 8 powers, 26 slots, 1 pool
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Shield Defense|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
A Shield Tank with 3 defense SOs in all his shields and 3 defense SOs in Hover, Combat Jumping, and Weave has 44% defense to all positions.
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- 6 powers for defense (Shield+Hover+CJ+Weave), 3 slots each, 2 in CJ, and 3 powers for prerequesites
- 1 power for status protection, 3 slots
- 1 power for a taunt aura (AAO), 0 extra slots
Total: 10 powers, 14 slots, 3 pools
Notes:
- Doesn't count slotting for extra things like Tough, res on Deflection, etc.
- SR will have superior defense resistance.
- 1 def SO in each toggle/passive will essentially cap your def resistance (93%). This means defense from outside sources can reduce slotting in, say, the passives without losing def resistance, unlike a Scrapper.
- Shield is consuming considerably more endurance.
- (Just as an aside, you can't use Shield Charge while Hovering, iirc.)
The real kick in the pants for the Shield build is eating 3 pools. If they want Stamina (pretty much assumed), then they have their 4 pools locked. I'd say, for SOs, SR would have the edge. (It's no comparison with IOs, Shield is definitely better - but again, SR peaks high early.)
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
He also (assuming Tough and his resist powers are slotted up) has over 46% S/L resist and 23% resist to all else but Psi. Plus they get a -damage aura that boosts their own damage. A SR Tank would be able to get the same defense without Hover or Weave but would have much lower resists and no aura. When you consider how easy Tanker Shield Defense is to softcap with Weave and a handful of IOs I really don't see a problem with SR being cappable on SOs alone since it has almost nothing but defense.
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Keep in mind that the forum populace is generally more well educated in game mechanics than people who don't read the forums. While it may seem easy for you to conceive / create a Shield Tank build that is soft capped with minimal investment, I think it's dubious most would.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And let's not forget that a kat/sr scrapper can hit the softcap to melee at level... 8.
Divine Avalanche can doublestack out of the box without any enhancements. There's 30% right there. FF with 3 TOs is around 16%. Done. Softcapped to melee. With TOs. In other words, I just can't buy this argument that the peak doesn't matter. Will Tank SR peak a lot earlier? Yes. And then it hits a wall while the other sets catch up. |
- No def resistance to speak of.
- It requires you to hit in order to keep your defense up.
- Doesn't help vs the alpha strike, since it takes time to stack.
- It is only against a single position and type (melee/lethal).
- Can be broken through rech debuffs.
- It requires a specific primary (Kat/BS) and secondary (SR), rather than just one or the other. (Kat/BS can do it with SOs, however.)
It has more ways to fail, especially at low levels. Have you noticed that BS and Katana haven't been ported to Tankers (goes from 30% double stacked def unenhanced to 40% for a Tanker)?
I can't say that is the reason, just like I can't say for certain that's why SR hasn't been ported, but I would speculate that def inflation due to AT mods is something they're keeping a close eye on.
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Very true, but then SR had better have the edge. SR gives:|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
The real kick in the pants for the Shield build is eating 3 pools. If they want Stamina (pretty much assumed), then they have their 4 pools locked. I'd say, for SOs, SR would have the edge. (It's no comparison with IOs, Shield is definitely better - but again, SR peaks high early.)
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- Defense
- Massive defense debuff resistance
- Scaling resists when low on health
- Quickness
- A tier 9 power that is essentially useless if softcapped
- Around 2/3 as much defense and defense debuff resist
- Full-time resists roughly equal to what SR gets at 40% health
- Significant +damage and a minor damage debuff
- A team +defense aura
- An extremely good AoE attack
- A good tier 9 power that stacks very well with softcapped defense
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You compared the two in a vacuum of their other abilities. Different sets do different things with different tools. SR on a tank would be amazing with respect to survivability. A shield tank is going to have the edge in damage and comes with mitigation in the form of -damage and AoE knockdown.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
A whole lot of stuff comparing shields to SR for tanks.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Comparing those two lists, SR had better have a lot better defense than Shield (which it does, with SOs) to make up for the fact that Shield offers a lot more things. Shield is pretty much the highest damage defensive set a Tanker can get, while SR would be one of thel lowest... it would only be fair for SR to have significantly better protection. I really can't see a straight port of Brute Super Reflexes to Tankers as unbalanced.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
You compared the two in a vacuum of their other abilities. Different sets do different things with different tools. SR on a tank would be amazing with respect to survivability. A shield tank is going to have the edge in damage and comes with mitigation in the form of -damage and AoE knockdown.
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As I said, there isn't a set in the game that offers over 30% def to everything on just SOs.* There are sets that can situationally get more (Invuln - 32% with saturated Invin, Ice - 34.52%/38.44% with saturated EA (unslotted/slotted)), but not guaranteed, always on, and practically undebuffable with just SOs. I don't think that is a coincidence. Just like reordering sets or breaking the Cottage Rule are taboo, I suspect that over 30%-35% in set def is as well.
To rephrase my argument:
To be balanced compared to other sets like Shield, SR does need something more. On Brutes/Scrappers that is more defense. When ported to a Tank, that extra def gets inflated to dangerous levels that no other sets currently has. I would suspect plan would be to lower SR's in set def to 30-35% and give it "something else" to compensate. The problem is, what could "something else" be that would be balanced, thematically fit, and not step on the toes of other sets?
Does that make more sense?
* Exception to prove the rule: Stone Armor/Granite. Massive debuffs associated with it, and still has a psi hole.
Note: I'm only speaking for myself and my observations of what the devs have done in the past. I could be completely wrong on this point. If I were a dev, however, it would be my logic against a straight port of SR.
Regarding the discussion about how /SR would porti to tanks. I think you're missing one thing. /SR's die when a tank should not. Sometimes an /SR scrapper will out survive tanks... but sometimes they do not. While most of the time, an /SR scrapper can survive at the agro cap long enough to clear the spawn, "most of the time" isn't good enough to tank. A tank should be trying to build such that it can live forever at the agro cap... During play, it needs to try to STAY at the agro cap by grabbing more agro. /SR just isn't the set to handle that.
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Sarrate, your points are well taken and your F-Zero analogy is completely awesome, but I don't think that's enough to keep a port of the set from Tanks. Especially since Brutes got the set. IMVHO it would outperform the other sets early, but other sets would go on to mature into their specific niches while SR, as Bill Z said, would "hit a wall".
And yes, we don't balance around IOs, but in the late game, with IOs, a number of sets end up looking better than Tanker SR (same Defense, better utility; SR gets and keeps Defense more easily, but sacrifices the utility the other sets get. To me, that looks balanced).
I don't think you'd see SR Tanks being the first choice for the very toughest Tanking duties in the game, though I do see it being a very solid all-around performer, ultimately being in the middle of the pack for sets getting picked and played. In PvP (lolz) it would outperform Dark Armor and...get outperformed by everything else. 
I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see SR Tanks in GR. We'll just have to wait and see.
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That might have been a guideline when making the original sets, but I would think the main question on porting sets would be: is this brokenly strong or weak?| As I said, there isn't a set in the game that offers over 30% def to everything on just SOs.* There are sets that can situationally get more (Invuln - 32% with saturated Invin, Ice - 34.52%/38.44% with saturated EA (unslotted/slotted)), but not guaranteed, always on, and practically undebuffable with just SOs. I don't think that is a coincidence. Just like reordering sets or breaking the Cottage Rule are taboo, I suspect that over 30%-35% in set def is as well |
My question is, would it be possible to tank properly on a pure defense based set without near-softcapped defense? The scaling resists would help (especially with tank HP) but overall I doubt a SR tank would be able to handle more than an Invul or WP tank can... they'd have specific situations where they were better or worse, but overall they'd have softcapped defense and moderate resists when hurt that don't really count against high-damage opponents (anything that can 2-3 shot tank HP). When compared to WP's layered defenses or Invul's massive S/L resists plus decent defense, that doesn't seem unbalanced. (Especially since SR has no heal, +regen, or +HP power.)
My personal belief is that SR hasn't been ported because dodging attacks just doesn't seem to fit with the whole Tank archtype... Shield and Ice deflect attacks with something, but SR just avoids them. That's more Scrapper-like... just like massive ponderous attacks like SS and Stone Melee are too Tank / Brute oriented for the devs to give them to Scrappers.
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The fact Brutes get Super Strength and Super Reflexes tends to indicate that if this was ever a guideline, the devs have since thrown it out.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
My personal belief is that SR hasn't been ported because dodging attacks just doesn't seem to fit with the whole Tank archtype...
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Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
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Quote:
Just to make sure we're on the same page, when you say "/SR's die when a tank should not," under what assumption are you operating?|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Regarding the discussion about how /SR would porti to tanks. I think you're missing one thing. /SR's die when a tank should not. Sometimes an /SR scrapper will out survive tanks... but sometimes they do not. While most of the time, an /SR scrapper can survive at the agro cap long enough to clear the spawn, "most of the time" isn't good enough to tank. A tank should be trying to build such that it can live forever at the agro cap... During play, it needs to try to STAY at the agro cap by grabbing more agro. /SR just isn't the set to handle that.
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- SOs vs IOs
- Solo vs Teamed
- Enemy level (+0 vs +4)
- No outside assistance vs outside assistance
I ask because I don't think many Tankers can survive at the aggro cap indefinitely running on just SOs. I do think that an SR Tank would do a better job of it than Shield would since it would be at 40% def vs 28% and immune to def debuffs. (I'm too busy to compute out immortality lines atm and I don't have access to Arcana's spreadsheet, either.)
Don't forget an SR Tanker would have 40% more health and 33% stronger passive resists.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
Sarrate, your points are well taken and your F-Zero analogy is completely awesome, but I don't think that's enough to keep a port of the set from Tanks. Especially since Brutes got the set. IMVHO it would outperform the other sets early, but other sets would go on to mature into their specific niches while SR, as Bill Z said, would "hit a wall".
And yes, we don't balance around IOs, but in the late game, with IOs, a number of sets end up looking better than Tanker SR (same Defense, better utility; SR gets and keeps Defense more easily, but sacrifices the utility the other sets get. To me, that looks balanced). |
Why? They can datamine to find out how many people heavily use IOs. They also aren't only trying to balance "end game" (though they no doubt keep it in mind). They're also balancing how people perform while leveling up. This also doesn't just include veterans who know the system inside and out, but also those who just started playing last week.
I think having high SO performance would effect more people than you'd think.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
My question is, would it be possible to tank properly on a pure defense based set without near-softcapped defense?
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
The scaling resists would help (especially with tank HP) but overall I doubt a SR tank would be able to handle more than an Invul or WP tank can... they'd have specific situations where they were better or worse, but overall they'd have softcapped defense and moderate resists when hurt that don't really count against high-damage opponents (anything that can 2-3 shot tank HP). When compared to WP's layered defenses or Invul's massive S/L resists plus decent defense, that doesn't seem unbalanced. (Especially since SR has no heal, +regen, or +HP power.)
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HOLD IT!|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
What do you consider "near softcapped defense"? I consider 40% to be pretty close.
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45% defense allows you to withstand 100% more DPS than 40% defense.
In no definition of the word is that "close."
Edit to be clever: You may be thinking of the phrase "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades," which seemingly applies.
Until you realize we're not the ones throwing the grenades.
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Yes, I'm well aware of how defense non-linearly scales up. I say it's "close" because a single power (CJ) adds 3% with just the base slot.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
HOLD IT!
45% defense allows you to withstand 100% more DPS than 40% defense. In no definition of the word is that "close." Edit to be clever: You may be thinking of the phrase "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades," which seemingly applies. Until you realize we're not the ones throwing the grenades. |
Or to put it another way, the Tanker SR (40% def) gets hit ~46% as often as Tanker Shield (28.4% def). The Shield would need an additional ~54% mitigation (res/maxhp/etc) to make up the difference.
Add 1 slotted CJ to both: Tanker SR (43% def) gets hit ~37.6% as often. Tanker Sheild now needs a total of ~62.4% outside mitigation to catch up.
Is 40% as strong as 45%? Absolutely not. I do consider it to be "close" when talking about a straigh up SOed build with no outside pool powers yet included to bolster it.
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Ah.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Is 40% as strong as 45%? Absolutely not. I do consider it to be "close" when talking about a straigh up SOed build with no outside pool powers yet included to bolster it.
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Then yes, that's pretty close. CJ with defense enhancers. Softcap. I get it.
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Use a monospaced font. For example, Courier New:|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I really wish they'd fix the [code] tag. Stopgap: Copy & paste it into Notepad.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Will someone please direct me to where I can see a chart or table or some other representation showing how the +Resist scales with the state of the health bar? I've looked around both here and Google, but my search-fu seems to be pretty weak.
Thanks!