A few questions about a Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind
1. Skip Repulsion field
2 a. You can slot your protector bots with Accuracy, Damage, Endurance, Defense, Heal, and Stun. I am in favor of making the protector bots mean damage dealers first, and then supplementing their endurance reduction even with half a IO (dmg/end). I can see slotting a bit for stun or defense of course, but not heal. There has been noted an AI behavior that a protector bot slotted for heal will wait until he can use the greater portion of his enhanced heal potential. You can lose more minions in a quick burst even though the protector bot could potentially heal for more.
3. The only robot mastermind attack I like is the photon grenades, but being a Forcefield mastermind I can see how you want more to do than bubble and wouldn't disagree with you one bit to take them.
4. I like the mace AoE immobilize and the mace hold. I am not sure what you would want to power boost.
5. I like ~67% Accuracy and >90% Damage to cover most situations. The first tier I like >90% both Acc and Dmg.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
2 a. You can slot your protector bots with Accuracy, Damage, Endurance, Defense, Heal, and Stun. I am in favor of making the protector bots mean damage dealers first, and then supplementing their endurance reduction even with half a IO (dmg/end). I can see slotting a bit for stun or defense of course, but not heal. There has been noted an AI behavior that a protector bot slotted for heal will wait until he can use the greater portion of his enhanced heal potential. You can lose more minions in a quick burst even though the protector bot could potentially heal for more. |
As per real numbers, my Protector Bots deal 182.61 heal per use of the power, and with 38.6% enhancement, they will heal for a little over 253. A battle Drone has, as of right now, 480 hit points, meaning that a Protector Bot single-slotted for heal will heal them if they drop somewhat below half health. With the 42.4% of a level 50 Common, that value goes up to 260 heal, which is ~54%. Even if you call it 60%, it's still not too bad, and it means they'll heal each other and my Assault Bot for a lot.
By the way, I just checked. With both Protector Bot shields, my own shields and the dispersion bubble, everything other than Protector Bots is currently at a little over 43% defence, and I need to slot my shields up a bit more. The Protector Bots themselves are sitting at around 35% since they can't shield themselves. I'll consider trading the heal for a defence enhancement when I see the numbers with full-slotted personal shields.
3. The only robot mastermind attack I like is the photon grenades, but being a Forcefield mastermind I can see how you want more to do than bubble and wouldn't disagree with you one bit to take them. |
4. I like the mace AoE immobilize and the mace hold. I am not sure what you would want to power boost. |
5. I like ~67% Accuracy and >90% Damage to cover most situations. The first tier I like >90% both Acc and Dmg. |
I'm not sure what the base to-hit against -1s (and it really doesn't matter), but even con to +1 to +2 go: 75%, 65%, 56%. If you run on regular difficulty, or regular xMany, you'll be facing up to +1 enemies, who will be +2 to Protector bots. At a base to-hit of 56%, plus a 10% to-hit buff from Supremacy, plus a 42.4% enhancement slotting, you get a final to-hit of 93.98%, not counting other buffs, debuffs or defences. That's just about within a percent of the total cap and, to me at least, it seems to be sufficient. If you fight things +2 and over, then you'll be looking at a little over 80% and worse, which is no longer acceptable, but what levels you fight currently within the power of the player to select.
But I take it you wouldn't build only as good as you expressly needed on your own, right? You'd over-build on the expectation that you'll be fighting stronger things? That's kind of what I'm asking here - do I build for myself, knowing that I'm going to underpeform if I team over a large level gap? I mean, I can always just... NOT team, or only ever exemplar and that shouldn't be as much of a problem without the one level drop for being a sidekick.
So, to review, no Repulsion Field, probably no heal, meh personal attacks, still undecided on the others. Well, that's a promising start... Only it means I'll want to do a respec.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Repulsion field: Do not take it. Force bubble is better control, and even less resisted, for more reasonable endurance.
Protector Bots: Do these things need to be slotted for endurance reduction?
You can, I don't tend to as they still work fine enough. For very long fight, give them a blue, or hit them with repair. (Repair gives them endurance.) On the whole, I find Bots/ff is tough enough to not need bonuses, so frankenslotting bots helps clear up space. For 'must hit' stuff, I use at least three acc/dam pet sets, and use some of the last slots for effects in protectors, or resist/defense set enhancements in the lower pets.
Mastermind Attacks: matter of taste, but I find them too high a cost for their effect. Photon grenade, however, is handy for the stuns, and stacks nicely with bot stuns.
Protector Bots, redux: healing is my choice, as defense can and will get unlucky, while you have an entire secondary doing defense. I also picked up manuevers/aid other, but find the healing is nicest.
Web Envelope vs. Web Cocoon vs. Power Boost: I took envelope/boost. Holding things seemed pointless when they barely hurt any way, or could be killed quickly. Envelope is nice as it keep them clumped for missiles. Power boost boosts single-target bubbles by 60% for their duration, making them very handy.
Protector Bots, addendum: See earlier acc/dam frankenslotting. Cheap, and saves slots.
That's my two bits, at least.
I've got one of these to 50, I agree with much of what's already been said with a couple exceptions:
1) Repulsion Field is a clicky, NOT a toggle. It looks like a toggle, acts like a toggle, but don't ever ever pretend it is a toggle. Otherwise you can wave buhbye to your blue bar. Good news: repel is rarely resisted! Great fun at parties!
2), 4), 6): I've never seen protbots drop their end bar as you describe. Some judicious frankenslotting might go a long way here, particularly with your accuracy concern and/or slotting for shields or healing. However, I wouldn't slot heavily for defbuff (see below) or acc (because you're running Tactics already, right? Right?!)
3) AoE attacks would go a long way to fill the 3 minutes, 30 seconds between being a shield buffbot for your bots and ordering them around. I've got the photon grenade, repulsion bomb and force bolt (slotted with the FF proc), so I've always got something to do.
5) Power Boost is amazing with your two single-target shields, as it buffs their defense for the duration of the shield, not the duration of PB. If you're quick, you can double-shield up to three allies before PB goes away (like your assbot and both protbots).
Hope that helps!
Hmm... OK, that actually does answer most of my questions.
On Repulsion Field: I understand that I'm supposed to use it like a click only in short bursts, but even then, it still costs a lot and doesn't really do much. Not much that Force Bubble can't, at any rate, and I've already managed to corner-pin a few spawns with the large bubble - something I've never managed with Repulsion Field. Keeping enemies away from me doesn't really seem like such a useful skill, particularly since I can turtle up in Personal Forcefield, call up Bodyguard, Hover straight up or, you know, turn on Force Bubble
I'm dropping Repulsion Field first chance I get. It just costs far too much for what it does.
On Personal Attacks: Currently, I have Pulse Rifle Blast, Pulse Rifle Burst, Photon Grenade, Repulsion Bomb and, the way things are looking, Mace Beam Volley up next. I realise this isn't what a Mastermind should be doing, but as long as I have time on my hands, I might as well make the most of it. Plus, if I corner pin a large spawn, why NOT pitch in and lay down some AoE? As far as the single-target attacks go, they have knockback on them, and they CAN kill weaker enemies like Engineers, Surgeons, Comm. Officers and so forth. Might as well. They're not good use for endurance, but I can just not use them when I'm low, so it's all good.
On Power Boost: I didn't realise it boosted by this much. Definitely worth getting, ESPECIALLY for the Protector Bots, who can't multi-shield each other. I hadn't realised it's so short-duration, though. What is it, 15 seconds? At each double-shielding taking 4.14 seconds plus whatever Arcana-time that entails sounds like just about enough time to shield three people. Good call, and I'm going with this. I'm not sure I'll need to slot it for recharge, since my shields ought to last longer than its base recharge anyway. Well, maybe one in the default slot. We'll see.
On Protector Bots: No, I'm not running Tactics. Sorry. I have it on my Mercs/Traps and I don't want to repeat myself. Plus, unlike my Colonel Kroenen ripoff, this one will be running a Patron shield. So far, against the things I'm fighting, my Protector Bots seem to be doing pretty well on just one enhancement, a 40 Common Accuracy. They're registering 95% to-hit, which is satisfactory and seems to hold for most things I'm likely to face anyway. I have them slotted for Heal right now, and I may or may not be running into the AI problem. Will they wait until my other bots drop significantly lower than they can heal? I seem to have seen a few Drones running around in the red for quite some time, at much less than 40% health and not being healed. The Protectors might have just been waiting for their heal to recharge, though. I don't know.
And I've decided to slot them for endurance reduction. Whether or not they need it, it doesn't hurt for them to have one, and it reduces the cost of summoning them, to boot. I could have stuck in more heal, I suppose, but I HAVE seen them drain themselves, which is something I don't enjoy seeing. I'm actually considering slotting the Battle Drones for reduction, as well. They don't need it, but a cheaper summon is always a plus.
And... I guess that's that. Thank you
*edit*
A-hah! I know what I'm going to take instead of Repulsion Field! Group Flight! I'll never make up the to-hit penalty for that, not with slotting, not with Tactics, but I don't intend to use it for fighting anyway. I just want to have a way to turn my Bots' jet boots on. Cool, it had me wondering
*edit*
One more question!
Personal Forcefield: I don't know what has possessed me to do this, but I have in my plans an intended defence enhancement slotted into that thing. And I have to ask (ask myself, indeed) why? Even just on its base slot, Personal Forcefield caps my defences to everything it defends against, and by a fair bit. AND it stacks with Dispersion Bubble. What POSSIBLE reason could I have had to plan for this?
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hmm... OK, that actually does answer most of my questions.
On Repulsion Field: I understand that I'm supposed to use it like a click only in short bursts, but even then, it still costs a lot and doesn't really do much. Not much that Force Bubble can't, at any rate, and I've already managed to corner-pin a few spawns with the large bubble - something I've never managed with Repulsion Field. Keeping enemies away from me doesn't really seem like such a useful skill, particularly since I can turtle up in Personal Forcefield, call up Bodyguard, Hover straight up or, you know, turn on Force Bubble I'm dropping Repulsion Field first chance I get. It just costs far too much for what it does. |
Personal forcefield is a nice 'get out of town' power, but honestly I've found little use for it. Masterminds are tough, Bots/FF are toughest of the tough. You throw on bodyguard mode, and stuff just can't do much, provided the pets have their bubbles. If you do want it, recharge is probably all you want in there. It caps you, but you can't do much else. As you can't do much else, you won't use that much endurance doing not much whilst secluded in your bubble. It's a long recharge, so if you do need it, getting it back can't be a bad thing.
Personal forcefield is a nice 'get out of town' power, but honestly I've found little use for it. Masterminds are tough, Bots/FF are toughest of the tough. You throw on bodyguard mode, and stuff just can't do much, provided the pets have their bubbles. If you do want it, recharge is probably all you want in there. It caps you, but you can't do much else. As you can't do much else, you won't use that much endurance doing not much whilst secluded in your bubble. It's a long recharge, so if you do need it, getting it back can't be a bad thing.
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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*edit* A-hah! I know what I'm going to take instead of Repulsion Field! Group Flight! I'll never make up the to-hit penalty for that, not with slotting, not with Tactics, but I don't intend to use it for fighting anyway. I just want to have a way to turn my Bots' jet boots on. Cool, it had me wondering |
Just be careful not to have it turned on when it will get in their way.
*edit* One more question! Personal Forcefield: I don't know what has possessed me to do this, but I have in my plans an intended defence enhancement slotted into that thing. And I have to ask (ask myself, indeed) why? Even just on its base slot, Personal Forcefield caps my defences to everything it defends against, and by a fair bit. AND it stacks with Dispersion Bubble. What POSSIBLE reason could I have had to plan for this? |
I never pass up personal force field on a MM build. It's nice to just waive to my henchmen real quick and say "Sorry boys. You're on your own from here on out." Then after they all die, maybe I'll come back with another summon. It's nice knowing I can take however many tries I need to finish a group off.
Honestly, the personal attacks are fine to get. Especially as a bubbler. Before the general consensus was that taking the personal attacks = noob, but that's far from the truth. Why not add damage to your bots? I think it's dumb when I see a MM sitting there with his arms crossed not doing anything. There's so much more you can add by taking some of the attacks. Photon Grenade is excellent, the stun stacks well with the protector bots'.
On my protector bots, I have a combo of Acc, Dam, Defense, and a little END reduction in there. They do tend to blow through end pretty quickly without.
Honestly, the personal attacks are fine to get. Especially as a bubbler. Before the general consensus was that taking the personal attacks = noob, but that's far from the truth. Why not add damage to your bots? I think it's dumb when I see a MM sitting there with his arms crossed not doing anything. There's so much more you can add by taking some of the attacks. Photon Grenade is excellent, the stun stacks well with the protector bots'.
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For some reason, I can't seem to get much mileage out of Repulsion Field. It has some SERIOUS repel to it and it just scatters enemies everywhere when I try to push them against a wall. Heck, in the Rikti base maps, I actually manage to drive them UP the slanted walls and into the ceiling It's good if enemies are standing next to a corner, but it's REALLY hard to control. Good for keepaway, though. Haven't seen anything that could run through it yet. I'm sure there are a few things, but eh.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hey Sam, I've got lots of experience on forcefields both heroside and villainside... My first 50 villain that I still use to this day is Mercs/FF mastermind.
On your Repulsion field, just nitpicking on your latest post there, it's Knockback, not repel. Force bubble is a true Repel, with a knockback thrown in every once and a while. Repel, I'm sure you know, is like a wall of force pushing them away, while standing up still... while knockback is a sudden push flat on their faces.
Everyone here has given good advice on forcefielders and the robotics part, but what I want to touch on is the Powerboost section. I'm surprised how little I see forcefielders use this effectively and I want to help you get a little know-how on some very Super Effective usage out of it
Thanks to F22-Major, I became a powerboost know-it-all. Ok so powerboost rundown:
Powerboost effects the following powers:
Direct Health healing
Direct Endurance healing and draining
Mez durations
Mez protection magnitude (Things like Integration, Clear Mind, and Stimulant)
Movement speed buffs and debuffs
Defense buffs and debuffs
Tohit buffs and debuffs
Some pet powers (Mostly things like rains)
Powerboost does NOT effect the following:
Regeneration buffs and debuffs
Damage buffs and debuffs
Knockback and Knockdown Mag
Recovery buffs and debuffs
Recharge Speed buffs and debuffs
Repel mag
Resist Damage buffs and debuffs
Direct Accuracy
Stealth
Debuff resistance
Range buffs and debuffs
End discount buffs
Pet auto powers, or any Henchmen's powers for that matter.
+HP Buffs
+Max End buffs
Perception buffs and debuffs
Mez Resistance
ANY rage bar
Taunt Duration
Placate Duration
Threat Level
Mez magnitudes
Side note: Powerboost is wonky at times and does not work for a power that has an ENHANCEABLE factor of something it does not effect.
For example powerboost will effect forcefield's personal forcefield's defense levels even though it grants damage resist. Rest assured, it will not effect the Resist still. This is because the damage resist is not enhanceable. It will NOT effect Cold domination's Ally shields because you can enhance the damage resist of the shields.
Powerboost ultimately has some very great effects especially for a forcefielder. It effects all defensive numbers in every defense move, and you can throw in a few extras and have it effect them too.
Effective usage:
As a defense character you can slot a good number of +recharge from LOTG or the less expensive Red Fortune, granted you need 5 slots for the 5%. This helps Powerboost come up faster, because slotting 3 recharges in the power brings it to 60 secs.
So recharge helps for that bad boy up.
Other defensive moves are like Aid Self, Aid Other, and Stimulant. If you choose to take these, powerboost greatly increases the healing, and it also increases the magnitude of protection Stimulant gives. I've never heard of anyone actually needing tons and tons of mez resist aside from ghost widdow's mag 100 hold, but still the option is there.
You also have the option of the webnade hold or immob. It will greatly increase the duration and the speed debuff present in both. For example a boss that doesn't get held or immobed in the first will be slowed greatly with a powerboosted web, plus you can stack it on him with ease.
Now effective bubbling: When you activate powerboost, it immediately effects all defense toggles you are running for the 15 seconds it is running. So Dispersion is increased for your own personal safety.
Now, this is for effective bubbling, always remember this... During your 15 seconds, you can apply Deflection and Insulation on 3 people.
Or you can apply it to 2 people and 1 heal or attack.
But it is always 3 people. During teams if I'm running with an 8 man team, I powerboost the top 3, and when powerboost comes up again, I will powerboost the next 3, and then the last person.
And during that last person I can choose to refresh the powerboosted bubble of the first 2, or save it to refresh it all at once.
This is how you can keep powerboosted FF on an 8 man team, It's easier with henchmen, since you just have the 6 bots. Powerboost the tier 1 henchies since they have the least HP, then protect the higher tier ones on the 2nd powerboost.
However the 2 of those don't mix well. Personally when I'm on a team I keep the powerboost for my teammates and just regular bubble the minions at all times. IT really depends on how many teammates I have, any more than 3, it's tiring.
But the key is the 3 allies fully shielded per powerboost. If you refresh the powerboosted bubbles with non-powerboosted bubbles, the defense will return to non-powerboosted levels. Despite what the teamwindow status says, if you do that, the bubbles will not have a high defense.
Hope that helps with a few questions you might have.
Former King of PWNZ
Franziska Von Karma says you will listen to every word I say.
Another really sweet thing about group fly is if you get the stealth proc for flight, then you can toggle in on and off real quick and your teammates will love you for making them all invisible. (At least I'm pretty sure this will happen. Haven't tried it myself)
Just be careful not to have it turned on when it will get in their way. |
So, I'm betting that if you put a stealth proc on Group Fly, probably you'll be the only one who gets any stealth out of it. Might as well put the proc on hover instead.
marking this thread * I have a low lvl Bot/FF and need to read this once I get outa work as skimming i see a lot of great info. Thanks
It's important to note that slotting too much Heal into your Protector Bots can be dangerous. Because their heals are more potent, they wait until other bots have less health before they heal, meaning that there's a better chance of the other bots dieing before the Protector Bot will actually heal it.
marking this thread * I have a low lvl Bot/FF and need to read this once I get outa work as skimming i see a lot of great info. Thanks
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I am much happier playing my bots/dark and bots/storm because I have more things I can do and it's not as safe.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Heh. As far as 'passive' goes, my mastermind went all the way for medicine/leadership, and hasn't regretted it. But I have the pets fully bound, so I constantly call their targets.
As on offset, my second built took fighting/presence for more armor and constant taunting. Medicine is still there, but for a self-heal.
Both are tremendously fun, in their own ways.
I went back to an old Mastermind of mine that I hadn't touched in probably a year, and I noticed that my planned build had a few issues I never got around to resolving at the time. Since I don't want to be guessing blind, I thought I'd ask you guys and go from there. In no particular order, they are:
Repulsion field: I may or may not have asked about this before, but this power seems to me to be a veritable sucker trap. The power's cost is bad enough, but it taking another 1.25 points of endurance per target affected, and with a tick speed of two per second, that's just evil. I did a little testing, and this can indeed keep certain powerful enemies perma-knocked down. The Wailer Overlord or whatever that thing is called would never even attempt to get up when I was near him with this one. However, with him and two queens, my entire endurance bar lasted me about 15 seconds doing NOTHING else. I have other toggles to run, other powers to use. Can anyone really justify THAT kind of cost and slot investment?
Protector Bots: Do these things need to be slotted for endurance reduction? I have no idea how they do it, but I've seen the Protector Bots drain themselves to almost nothing on multiple occasions. Thing is, that happens only sometimes, and at all other times, they're almost always almost completely full. What causes them to bottom out their endurance, and is it really worth slotting endurance reduction in them just for that?
Mastermind Attacks: I know the common wisdom on these. "Don't!" Despite this, I'm starting to develop what I can only describe as an attack chain. Pulse Rifle Blast, Pulse Rifle Burst, Photon Grenade, Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb currently work as attacks (Force Bolt less so), and I'm actually looking at Mace Beam Volley. My chosen difficulty has LOTS of enemies, and it feels like it helps a little. Other than yelling at me, are there any reasons NOT to do this? The attacks' AoE damage isn't half bad.
Protector Bots, redux: My Protector Bots seem to do two things aside from attacking (which what they're slotted for) - heal and shield. I don't think I can slot them for both, so supposing I can only slot them for either, what should I go for? Shield seems like a good rule of thumb, but I'm not sure if I'm not already hitting the softcap just between their shields and mine. Heal seems like an interesting idea, and it's what I have them slotted for right now, since when things get bad, they tend to save otherwise doomed bots.
Web Envelope vs. Web Cocoon vs. Power Boost: In my build, I seem to have picked Web Envelope, probably to immobilize things inside the Assault Bot's Burn Patches, but I seem to have picked Power Boost over Web Envelope, and I'm not sure why that is. Is there ANY point to taking Power Boost on a Mastermind at all? Doesn't that just boost status effects, of which I have none? And what of Web Envelope? Should I trade something for that? Mace Beam Volley, perhaps? I don't know. Holds seem to be an interesting tool for a Mastermind, but... Not as useful as on something like a Blaster, since Masterminds just don't die as easily.
Protector Bots, addendum: This is more of a technical question, but here you go. I tended to slot my lieutenant-level henchmen with two accuracy enhancements, but that was back in SO levels fighting even con and +1 enemies. I am currently using Common Inventions and fighting enemies -1 to even con. That would put the Protector Bots' accuracy with one accuracy enhancement and supremacy active, at just over the 90% to-hit streakbreaker boundary. This means that, under controlled conditions, they should be hitting as well as I could want. Should I or should I not do this, considering that teaming will usually put me up against enemies +1 to +2 to me, under which conditions their to-hit will REALLY suffer?
That's about all I have to ask at the moment. I apologise for the disorganised presentation and for the massive list of questions, but I'm really in quite a bit of a quandary here.