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only if you have lots of time to grind merits, which I do not. Tickets are random, so they don't count.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
The only things that can't be bought outside of the market are PvP IOs and Purples. Using merits and tickets is an alternative to items you can't find on the BM.
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which isn't a problem blue side, where I just make tons of inf then buy the stuff i want.
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| I still don't see where being PO'd because there are fewer goods becomes substantial harm. |
Is it really that hard to grasp, or do you just not care that one faction gets it in the rear compared to the other?
When it comes to the market heroes are tooling around town in sports cars while villains are taking the bus.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Do you feel that the data collected here strongly/weakly confirms or undermines this analogy?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
When it comes to the market heroes are tooling around town in sports cars while villains are taking the bus.
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I know. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Which is a vicious cycle, since the market inequities are a result of the lower population.
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We had a brief period that began just before the launch of VEATs when it was better but I knew that wouldn't last past the shiny period of the VEATs.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Wow not to be mean but are you guys dense?
There is 2 huge reasons why they won't merge the market.
1: The Devs have said time and time again no to ways for turning imfamy into influence
2: You would have to program the market to go hey well this villian bought this thing but this hero bought that thing we need to give them the right kind of currency.
There is a reason why you can't use BM or WW until your fully side switched. Yeah there taking the easy route. But merging the market would lead to some huge exploits and the ability to convert currencies. But then I should just wait till GR actualy comes out.
Anecdotal data point that I didn't see listed in the original post: Sovereign Right: Accuracy/Endurance. I rolled one of these (38) recently, and boy do sales for it red-side look sparse (any level).
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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Yeah, we're dense. Clearly they coded all the enemies in the game to drop influence to heroes and convert it to infamy to drop to villains not just have different names for the same data element. Or maybe they have 2 fields in every single enemy that has the same influence and the same infamy values depending on who beats the enemy. That would make a lot of sense.|
Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
Wow not to be mean but are you guys dense?
There is 2 huge reasons why they won't merge the market. 1: The Devs have said time and time again no to ways for turning imfamy into influence 2: You would have to program the market to go hey well this villian bought this thing but this hero bought that thing we need to give them the right kind of currency. There is a reason why you can't use BM or WW until your fully side switched. Yeah there taking the easy route. But merging the market would lead to some huge exploits and the ability to convert currencies. But then I should just wait till GR actualy comes out. |
Oh and I will leave out the times when villain drops say influence but it goes to the infamy total until the devs fix the label.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Again, being PO'd isn't a good reason just to merge the markets. Lower teaming opportunities and lesser content are probably a big part of the reason on why the BM isn't as easy to fill out recipes than on WW. As well having Heroes around for twice as long may have something to do with the playtime differentials as well.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
only if you have lots of time to grind merits, which I do not. Tickets are random, so they don't count.
which isn't a problem blue side, where I just make tons of inf then buy the stuff i want. it isn't 'fewer goods' per se, it's the fact that villains get a DEGRADED GAMING EXPERIENCE compared to heroes. Is it really that hard to grasp, or do you just not care that one faction gets it in the rear compared to the other? When it comes to the market heroes are tooling around town in sports cars while villains are taking the bus. |
I don't see how one side is getting it in the rear versus the other. If you're *that* interested in getting an exact recipe for your specific toon, then secure them from an alternate source. It's really not that difficult, although it might take more time and work differently than the way you want to do it.
The gameplay experience from villains to heroes isn't exactly the same and I don't think they could make it the same. If you want to claim a degraded experience because things are not vis-a-vis identical, there are more than a few things that you can say that about, such as strike force level gaps.
Sorry that the BM has taken a dive, but maybe GR will have more heroes come over to the dark side and help it out. If not, I guess you can always use GR and go blue.
The game has been balanced around SO's so it's not like not having a huge selection is crippling either. Again, if you bothered to read what I had said instead of just feeling hurt that I'm not pushing for your cause, I think the markets should be merged but the devs have so many other things going on that it just won't happen.
Buses are better for the environment, btw.
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We've been told before by the devs that the only thing that is different about heros or villians is a single field, with a single number, that denotes whether a character is a hero or a villian. The separation between the sides is artificially created and artificially maintained. In fact much programming time has been spent by the devs to close loop holes in the programs that allowed things to be passed from one side to the other.|
Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
Wow not to be mean but are you guys dense?
There is 2 huge reasons why they won't merge the market. 1: The Devs have said time and time again no to ways for turning imfamy into influence 2: You would have to program the market to go hey well this villian bought this thing but this hero bought that thing we need to give them the right kind of currency. There is a reason why you can't use BM or WW until your fully side switched. Yeah there taking the easy route. But merging the market would lead to some huge exploits and the ability to convert currencies. But then I should just wait till GR actualy comes out. |
The main problem for the merger is that the entire market database has to be gone over by hand, we've been told this in the past as well. It's not that it isn't doable it's the amount of work involved and from a CS perspective it must all be done 100% correctly on the first pass.
The other potential sticking point is that once merged the markets would be nigh impossible to separate again.
Most of us that are pro-merger don't care about either case. We want them to spend the time to merge them and fervently hope that they will never be separate again.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
My normal play behaviour is to level a character up to a point where I feel the build is flexible enough and open enough to IO it out with a meaningful number of enhancement values. I then IO it out, by placing bids, waiting, and while I wait, sculpting and crafting other characters.
I spend a lot of time waiting on my villains. So much so that I've earned a huge number of levels on various heroes waiting for villains to fill out, then IO'd those heroes out, then started over again.
The market and IOs are two things that I enjoy about this game, and since I solo a lot, solidly IO'd builds are another part of what I enjoy. I therefore find it exasperating that the half of the game that I know I should support more (because the problem won't fix itself) is actively pushing me away.
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It's often useful to make sure your foot isn't in your mouth when you speak.|
Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
You would have to program the market to go hey well this villian bought this thing but this hero bought that thing we need to give them the right kind of currency.
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There is not such thing as the right kind of currency. During CoV beta, Infamy actually had the "influence" label in the villain interfaces. It's the same thing. That might have been almost completely obvious if you'd considered that the same mobs at the same level give exactly the same inf rewards on both sides, and all fixed cost items cost exactly the same from the same kinds of stores.
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| But merging the market would lead to some huge exploits and the ability to convert currencies. But then I should just wait till GR actualy comes out. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That's a bit like saying it's OK if all villains level slower, because they're villains. Given that IO us has always been presented as an alternate progression method to gaining XP (particularly when characters can't gain XP any longer due to the level cap), it is very much like that.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
I don't see how one side is getting it in the rear versus the other. If you're *that* interested in getting an exact recipe for your specific toon, then secure them from an alternate source. It's really not that difficult, although it might take more time and work differently than the way you want to do it.
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| The gameplay experience from villains to heroes isn't exactly the same and I don't think they could make it the same. If you want to claim a degraded experience because things are not vis-a-vis identical, there are more than a few things that you can say that about, such as strike force level gaps. |
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| Sorry that the BM has taken a dive, but maybe GR will have more heroes come over to the dark side and help it out. If not, I guess you can always use GR and go blue. |
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| The game has been balanced around SO's so it's not like not having a huge selection is crippling either. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It's bad, but it's an equal factor in the game.
If you want to do lots of different TFs, go heroside.
If you want to do lots of story arcs, go heroside.
If you want to fight lots of different giant monsters, go heroside.
If you want to travel through lots of different zones, go heroside.
If you want cooperative content that still feels appropriate for your character, go heroside.
If you want to PVP, go heroside.
Hrm.
You know, thinking of it like that, the idea of using IOs as being unfairly biased towards one side isn't actually that 'wrong.'
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I don't agree with this post. I'll give Heroes cooler zones and more zones but that's it.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
It's bad, but it's an equal factor in the game.
If you want to do lots of different TFs, go heroside. If you want to do lots of story arcs, go heroside. If you want to fight lots of different giant monsters, go heroside. If you want to travel through lots of different zones, go heroside. If you want cooperative content that still feels appropriate for your character, go heroside. If you want to PVP, go heroside. Hrm. You know, thinking of it like that, the idea of using IOs as being unfairly biased towards one side isn't actually that 'wrong.' |
You may like the quality higher on the villainside, but there's more of all of the above.
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It's definitely fair to say they have more TFs, and especially more TFs that get run more often. When I play a villain, the only SF that is regularly being formed in general channels for my server is probably the BSF, and the only one people I regularly team with run often is the RSF. The rest of the time I'm usually left to run the two coops.
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
I'll give Heroes cooler zones and more zones but that's it.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Leveling slower isn't just a function of uber builds. The player is a much better judge of how fast someone can level over what IOs they are slotting. It's mainly a function of people who want to get into the upper echelons of the game or feel they need some specific build for the sake of completeness that it is bothering them.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's a bit like saying it's OK if all villains level slower, because they're villains. Given that IO us has always been presented as an alternate progression method to gaining XP (particularly when characters can't gain XP any longer due to the level cap), it is very much like that.
It doesn't have to be exactly the same. It should be comparable. Right now, with respect to the market, it is not comparable in my opinion. Just because there are other ways it is not comparable does not justify any of them. They should all be improved if possible. That's not a solution to the problem. That's deciding the problem will never be fixed and giving up. The fact is that the invention system is a part of the game. If it's available, it should be available in an equitable way. Simply because it's optional does not imply that it should not have equal applicability. As soon as it does, there is the implication that if you want to make good use of the system you should choose one side over the other. That's bad. |
Why would you say it's giving up? Given the information that has been published about GR I'm surprised you're taking such a myopic view of the need to merge markets.
GR will have heroes who wind up to be villains and vice versa. Each will still trade into their respective markets, as far as I've heard? Are you implying that everyone is going to make a villain and then go heroside in GR and then every hero not switch sides to villains?
GR itself will likely be a boost to both markets and since the BM is slower than WW it will get a pickup. A significant one I believe. Then the point will be moot on whether the markets need to be merged or not.
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This has nothing to do with IOs affecting how fast you level. It has to do with how fast you can make use of the IO system as an alternate form of progression. Sure, that may also mean that as you progress down the IO path, you gain XP faster, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the IO system as its own progression, and a disparity in the speed at which a villain can take advantage of that compared to a hero.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Leveling slower isn't just a function of uber builds. The player is a much better judge of how fast someone can level over what IOs they are slotting. It's mainly a function of people who want to get into the upper echelons of the game or feel they need some specific build for the sake of completeness that it is bothering them.
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You mention, "the need [to attain] some specific build" ... how else would anyone approaching the IO system as a means of progression make use of it? You can use them haphazardly, but that's a specific choice to only pursue their capabilities to a limited extent. The point here is that it's easier/faster/cheaper for a hero to pursue the system to any given capability it offers except perhaps the haphazard slotting of IOs that happen to drop.
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| Why would you say it's giving up? Given the information that has been published about GR I'm surprised you're taking such a myopic view of the need to merge markets. |
I'm curious what they've told us about GR that should give me a wider view. Everything I've seen reinforces my sense of dread about the implications for the Black Market. What, specifically, do you think should do otherwise?
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| GR will have heroes who wind up to be villains and vice versa. Each will still trade into their respective markets, as far as I've heard? Are you implying that everyone is going to make a villain and then go heroside in GR and then every hero not switch sides to villains? |
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| GR itself will likely be a boost to both markets and since the BM is slower than WW it will get a pickup. A significant one I believe. Then the point will be moot on whether the markets need to be merged or not. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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"If you want to do lots of different TFs, go heroside."|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's definitely fair to say they have more TFs, and especially more TFs that get run more often. When I play a villain, the only SF that is regularly being formed in general channels for my server is probably the BSF, and the only one people I regularly team with run often is the RSF. The rest of the time I'm usually left to run the two coops.
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I want to do lots of different TFs and SFs. No, I won't be going heroside.
There's a key difference between "wanting lots of TFs" and "wanting to do lots of TFs. Yes, it is fair to say blueside has more TFs. I sure as **** don't want to do them. My experience with players organizing TFs is vastly different from yours. In my experience people organize LGTFs, ITFs, the strike force but Silver Mantis, and the STF. Occasionally, I hear one of the normal Task Forces but not often. I can't remember the last time I heard a Barricuda being organized.
I see STFs fairly often. I'd be hard-pressed to say what I see more, but I see the following set with some regularity: Hess, Moonfire, Positron (mostly since the exemplar level change), Sister Psyche, Citadel and Manticore. I see Numina, but probably not as much as those others. I very occasionally still see a Katie forming. I almost never see an Eden forming.
But far and away I think I see ITFs and LGTFs most of the time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
He has a substantial point, I joined this game by City of Villains and my understanding is simply that villains are far more solo-orientated - in relation to heroes. After all, defenders can't solo - until an adequate point in the system, 30's perhaps; controllers are very arduous to level; blasters are squishy... Of course you could all argue that such and such a combo' solo's well but in appreciation of the whole concept villains are solo-orientated, and this game thrives off teams to an extent.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
"If you want to do lots of different TFs, go heroside."
I want to do lots of different TFs and SFs. No, I won't be going heroside. There's a key difference between "wanting lots of TFs" and "wanting to do lots of TFs. Yes, it is fair to say blueside has more TFs. I sure as **** don't want to do them. My experience with players organizing TFs is vastly different from yours. In my experience people organize LGTFs, ITFs, the strike force but Silver Mantis, and the STF. Occasionally, I hear one of the normal Task Forces but not often. I can't remember the last time I heard a Barricuda being organized. |
Back on topic ... I have no comprehension of the data you posted Smurphy - it's the morning here, give me a minute or two!
Fury
There's already a shortage of villain players over heroes on the servers for a variety of reasons.
So the shortage is likely to grow due to behavior inequities between the two sides' markets.
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